DISAPPOINTMENT IN CHARGING TO USE THE EVENTS CALENDAR

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

55 minutes ago, HannahWurst said:

I am an Owner of a small club for 3 years now, with a few live music events every Thursday. I do this to give musicians a forum, not to make money. I calculate costs of about 11 K every weeks (fees and tiers). I am lucky, if I get 4500 L on tips. I already pay 6 to 9 k just to keep the club running. And now you want us to pay 10 or 50 For every announcement in the event calendar? If you will do that, I won't announce an event anymore on the SL event calendar. I am also thinking about canceling my premium account. You won't make more money with me. You will lose some. 

I was doing the same with my former club. I ran the place more for fun, not to make a killing and did this for a few years. I recently turned it over to a friend because it was no longer fun for me and RL stuff is taking more of my time.

They should maybe exempt postings for the live performers and maybe DJ events and charge for the others. I know the one club my man DJs at only has  DJs for one shift six nights a week and the owner is not a premie, so she'll be putting out at least 300L per week.

[Cinos Field]

Do consider if it's worth using the event calendar at all... Especially now before the price hike. Have one event without using it and then another using it. I'd dare guess you'll get almost no additional traffic by posting an event. That's because nobody (anecdotally anyway - I don't have statistics) actually uses it to search for events in its current state, only to post them.

[Tari Landar]

32 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

We have a name for you, but I won't post it here.  One of my DJ friends spends 2 hrs for every 1 hr of his set, so a 2 hr set means 6 hrs of his life for his set which you, in your opinion only, thinks is not worthy of an event listing.  Most of the comments here that think an event is ONLY what they think are events, are anti-club, and likely pretty anti social.  That's your right, but don't try to tell the people that enjoy others company and chat and dancing  together what is and is not an event to them!

As far as SL Events, never use the SL Web page events listing - it is badly designed and not set up for ease of use.  Firestorm Search (using the built in search) is a simple and compact design.  Use the filters to find what you want.  For instance, I am looking for a Blues club to go to tonight for a few hours.  Enter Blues, Uncheck A, and use Nightlife.  This is the result - So tell me, where is the spam?  Also you might want to tell the club owners and managers in the listed clubs here your opinion of their events.  I am sure they will appreciate your input  

 

Oh good grief.

I was a DJ in sl, out of sl elsewhere online, and in rl, for years ( I still DJ in rl, btw.). I am NOT knocking DJs, the hard work they put into things, or how valuable they are...let alone how entertaining, enjoyable, whatever...the actual sets are, in the least, so jump down off that damn horse before you fall, lmao. 

Read some of the threads associated with the events calendar over the years. Just because other people won't open up and say "yes, your 12 events every single day are getting obnoxious", doesn't mean the people who DO, are necessarily in the wrong. Don't take my word for it, don't even listen to my personal opinion at all...read.the.threads.

If you don't want to think like I and countless others (including LL it seems) do, by all means..do whatever and think whatever you like, as you should. It doesn't change the facts, and the facts are that the events calendar has been a bane for a while now, and for whatever reason a drain on LL's resources (according to them, not me), and LL wants to clean it up. They wouldn't NEED to clean it up if people didn't spam it like their lives depended on it. That's not MY opinion, that's just how things are, I suppose. My opinion is that they very well could've prevented a lot of the problems AND allow DJ related event postings at the same time, years ago with proper implementation and monitoring. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. But, what we have here..is a direct result of LL not knowing what to do with one of their products...and people running with it. Now LL wants to fix it, so, good on them for that. 

I am not antisocial, or necessarily entirely anti-club. I am anti gesturbator and don't mind going to clubs that forbid that crap. It's not the sounds that annoy me, I turn them off. It is the fact that people scream and shout in local, and spam gestures constantly and it hurts my damn eyes to see the text constantly-and it's a PITA to constantly have to make modifications, so I can't enjoy it no matter what. When I worked in clubs, I had a hell of a time back then too now, it's a million times worse. I don't expect others to modify themselves or their enjoyment, I modify my own. So *I* like to listen to these DJs and live singers on my own turf so that I can still enjoy them, can still tip them from a distance-which I always do, and enjoy the experience while appreciating the individual. I'm not telling others what to think, I'm saying, read the complaints if you wan to know why people frown on it...they're all over the forums. General consensus means far more than my individual, or your individual, opinion. It is the general public that uses the events calendar, right? Why not appeal to them s much as possible? 

If LL didn't see anything wrong with it, they wouldn't be making changes. Although I don't think the charge will actually deter most spammers(it might send a message to some..maybe, but, eh..hard to say), and I think being upset that you don't have yet another free advertising method is a bit over the top..but, that's my opinion and nothing more. LL COULD make a specific category for clubs, and not just night life (LL isn't known for being specific about anything, that's part of their problem, lol)-it might help all involved

[Adam Spark]

32 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Read some of the threads associated with the events calendar over the years. Just because other people won't open up and say "yes, your 12 events every single day are getting obnoxious", doesn't mean the people who DO, are necessarily in the wrong. Don't take my word for it, don't even listen to my personal opinion at all...read.the.threads.

This is a problem (the 12 events every day). DJ sets are not. You previously said DJ sets are not events, suggesting that even one doesn't belong, much less 12.

[Bridget Hammill]

3 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

. I have some singers I like, and even DJs, a lot-even though I refuse to go to clubs, I can listen in on their streams whenever it tickles my fancy by using those tools.

I am confused as to why you are in SL .  Why not just listen to the radio.  sl is a social platform and I will agree with the person who said that we are not all going to agree on what is considered "worthy" events to be in the calendar.  What I also agree with is Jay when he says that many dj's spend hours putting a set together and spend money on downloading songs and then to say that what they do is not considered an event is insulting.  Do all dj's and clubs do this, no.  But the good ones do.  I also agree with Jay that I never use the dashboard events i use the one in world as was shown.  It is very easy to use and it does not allow spam.  You are only allowed to post 5 events a day and you can not post the same one more than once.  I have found it very user friendly and you are able to set filters right down to find a specific artist, specific event , club, or even dj.  

Edited November 25, 2019 by Bridget Hammill

[Lexbot Sinister]

If your event is not "special" enough to spend 10L$ on, perhaps it's really.... not so much of an event.

 

 

 

[Bridget Hammill]

1 minute ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

If your event is not "special" enough to spend 10L$ on, perhaps it's really.... not so much of an event.

 

 

 

That is if you are paying to be a premium member.  not all can afford to do that.  And some hosts work different clubs every day and some several cubs so if you had two sets a day at different clubs and are paying 50 lindens for every one that starts adding up.

[Bridget Hammill]

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

 

I am not antisocial, or necessarily entirely anti-club. I am anti gesturbator and don't mind going to clubs that forbid that crap. It's not the sounds that annoy me, I turn them off. It is the fact that people scream and shout in local, and spam gestures constantly and it hurts my damn eyes to see the text constantly-and it's a PITA to constantly have to make modifications, so I can't enjoy it no matter what. When I worked in clubs, I had a hell of a time back then too now, it's a million times worse. I don't expect others to modify themselves or their enjoyment, I modify my own. So *I* like to listen to these DJs and live singers on my own turf so that I can still enjoy them, can still tip them from a distance-which I always do, and enjoy the experience while appreciating the individual. I'm not telling others what to think, I'm saying, read the complaints if you wan to know why people frown on it...they're all over the forums. General consensus means far more than my individual, or your individual, opinion. It is the general public that uses the events calendar, right? Why not appeal to them s much as possible? 

If LL didn't see anything wrong with it, they wouldn't be making changes. Although I don't think the charge will actually deter most spammers(it might send a message to some..maybe, but, eh..hard to say), and I think being upset that you don't have yet another free advertising method is a bit over the top..but, that's my opinion and nothing more. LL COULD make a specific category for clubs, and not just night life (LL isn't known for being specific about anything, that's part of their problem, lol)-it might help all involved

I will say that my club does not allow any sound gestures, talking Huds, or gesterbating.  We also do not allow particles. We do not allow barking dogs, or any other thing that makes sound.  I do not expect people to have to adjust their SL to enjoy the music in my club.  

The reason sl is charging is what about everything in this world gets down to.. the mighty buck.  Do not fool yourself into thinking the reason there is going to be a charge is due to anything else.

[Tari Landar]

16 minutes ago, Bridget Hammill said:

I am confused as to why you are in SL .  

Wtf is it your or anyone else's business why I'm in sl? Sigh. 

17 minutes ago, Bridget Hammill said:

Why not just listen to the radio.  sl is a social platform

Ahh, so one can only be social in a club, got it.

Since you want to know, but didn't ask, I'll answer anyway. I am in sl for all kinds of reasons, and being social is just one of them-I can be social pretty much anywhere, I don't need a club for that. I don't knock people that DO need or even just want clubs for that though. I support and enjoy creators, performers-and I do also include many a Dj in that (I LOVE supporting them, which is why I don't ALWAYS listen tot he radio..see, I can support DJs, musicians performers and even club owners without having to step foot in the club), merchants, sim owners, people that enjoy rp, people that come to sl to socialize, people that come in to learn, people that just come in for fun, people who might struggle with some of these things in rl, people that might struggle socially elsewhere, people that are just bored and need something to do. I come in sl to express and enjoy myself in ways rl doesn't allow for all kinds of reasons and enjoy the things I can, while I can. I come here to make friends, I come here to find friends. I come here to help other people and be helped. I come to sl to enjoy the things that many others can make and do.  I come to sl for a lot of things. I'm not going to judge others for what they come to sl for.

I'm not going to further address this part, because it's going to result in me saying some really not nice things, that may or may not be deserved...and I'd rather continue to believe you're a better person than your words suggest. So I'm going to believe that you're just pissed off and saying stupid ***** at me, directly, versus an actual problem (event spam-which is what I addressed), because you assumed that my words were a direct attack on you. They weren't a direct attack on you, but he act of spamming-which loads of places do. I apologize you thought it was a direct attack, I thought I was specific in stating it applies to lots of people listing events...apparently, I was not).I get it, you think I don't belong in sl, because you don't understand why people come here. I hope you have a fantastic evening.

 

 

 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 11/23/2019 at 10:22 PM, Bridget Hammill said:

It was very interesting to read some of the changes coming to SL in the coming year of 2020. I have been in SL for any years and in January 2020 will celebrate 10 years of owning Muddy's Music Cafe.  As a club owner who uses the events calendar in the correct way and have respected the rules I am highly disappointed that because of people who miss use it with spam we are all going to be penalized by being charged to use it.  I feel upset that a forum that was started by SL for us to be able to advertise our events we are now being charged to use. It's upsetting when all are punished for what a few do.  I think there must be some way for SL to stop the ones who do not go by the rules and spam the events instead of making us all pay.  This change will most certainly make our club stop using this way to advertise our events.  While i am sure to most 10 lindens or 50 lindens if you are not a member seems like very little it adds up when we have hosts who have 6 shifts a week or for a club like mine who runs around the clock 24/7.  I am hoping that SL will rethink this change.

Bridget Hammill

Founder and owner of Muddy's Music Cafe

I think it is a excellent idea. 

[Rob Huntsman]

Interesting, I wonder if they're going to charge for Group Notices next for residents that spam groups.

[ChinRey]

Going back to the OP to remind everybody:

On 11/24/2019 at 4:22 AM, Bridget Hammill said:

It's upsetting when all are punished for what a few do.

Yes, it is. But don't blame anybody else but those few. It's not LL's fault, they're trying their best. It's not any honest venue owner's or event arranger's fault. Even if they hold 24 events a day, they should be allowed to post them all in the calendar.

[Mollymews]

45 minutes ago, Haselden said:

Interesting, I wonder if they're going to charge for Group Notices next for residents that spam groups.

if the group owner gets half the money and Linden get the other half then I be ok with this

Join My Group For Free !! Bot Spammers Most Welcome !! No Limits On Posting Notices !!

hopefully I will get lots of spammers valued members 😸

[Tari Landar]

46 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Going back to the OP to remind everybody:

On 11/23/2019 at 10:22 PM, Bridget Hammill said:

It's upsetting when all are punished for what a few do.

 

There is a myriad of ways to advertise for free. Charging for one method does not, to me, sound like a punishment, just a piddly revenue stream that probably won't amount to a whole lot of revenue. I'm not a premium member either, so if I had to pay $50L to advertise an event, and I could not afford that amount-or even didn't want to pay it, I would use the free methods available to me both inworld, and out. I find a lot of useful, fun and interesting things to do that way, even just through looking at profiles and doing searches (mostly through searches, inworld and out). 

Charging residents for advertising, as LL does in different methods already, is a means for them to make money, they always have been. Every single way LL charges us for something, is a means for them to make money. I doubt anyone could reasonably say otherwise, it's a basic tenet of business, really.  Don't have to like it...but, you also don't have to use advertising methods that charge. Some of the places in events would stand well on their own without the event listing, as someone else suggested. They may even get more visitors, imo, by avoiding the event calendar until the dust settles, or permanently. They might not too, but I think it's worth a try, and won't cost anyone anything, which may well make it easier for people who really don't have the $L to list multiple events each week. 

It would be nice if LL could find methods to bring in revenue that didn't come from residents, but I think that's an unrealistic pipe dream, at this point in time. LL doesn't have a good track record in that department. 

[Qie Niangao]

If something isn't worth the cost of an upload, it's hard to work up a lot of concern for its loss.

But I'm actually surprised to find folks are still using the Event listings at all. Here's why: The only thing I ever used them for was to search for "gay" events, years ago, until it stopped working. Try it now. Turn on all maturity levels if you dare, with no filters or limits on dates or times or anything.

We'll wait...

That didn't take long, now did it? So what did you get? What I got just now was a grand total of five results, the first four of which are "Sex Sale Sex" furniture selling spam, followed by one lowly live music event over three weeks away.

So does anybody know why this search never really returns anything of interest anymore, and hasn't for years? It's not as if the gay events stopped happening -- they just aren't listed in the Events calendar anymore. Why not? Is it maybe too much anti-gay griefing when listed? Or because the listings never attracted any visitors (except me, maybe once a fortnight)? And if that's the case, do those listings actually work for anybody?

Given the current state, I personally couldn't care less if Events simply quit being listed at all -- they're completely useless to me -- but if somebody has objective evidence that they actually work for their venue, why doesn't that work for "gay" events?

[Prokofy Neva]

22 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

If I want to find an entertainment event, I first UNCHECK ADULT, then search Nightlife/Entertainment.

If I want to find Live musicians only, not DJ's, I first UNCHECK ADULT, and then search Live Music.

I do not see this spam problem if I UNCHECK ADULT, and search a specific category.

Do you get my drift here?  If LL wants to get rid of the spam, either remove the Adult Category, or charge $1000/listing for Adult listings.

And if they all move to Moderate, remove their accounts.   Actually anyone can avoid most spam by searching with the right filters.   

All this extra charge for G and M rated events will do is reduce the number of legitimate G and M rated events.  

Yes, it might have made more sense for the Lindens to charge adult events more, or admit that many "events" are merely sales opportunities sometimes not even with the "event planner" present, andthen  charge specifically for sales events, then maybe Live Music could have been left alone.

But...If you don't have $50 or $100 to pay for a live music event every day, and can't get that back in tips to the venue or musicians, then maybe you shouldn't be in the live music business. Or just make a group and IM your group members.

I am really looking forward to reading the events list again if it cleans up. I stopped looking at it literally years ago, it's a morass.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

42 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

There is a myriad of ways to advertise for free. Charging for one method does not, to me, sound like a punishment, just a piddly revenue stream that probably won't amount to a whole lot of revenue. I'm not a premium member either, so if I had to pay $50L to advertise an event, and I could not afford that amount-or even didn't want to pay it, I would use the free methods available to me both inworld, and out. I find a lot of useful, fun and interesting things to do that way, even just through looking at profiles and doing searches (mostly through searches, inworld and out). 

Charging residents for advertising, as LL does in different methods already, is a means for them to make money, they always have been. Every single way LL charges us for something, is a means for them to make money. I doubt anyone could reasonably say otherwise, it's a basic tenet of business, really.  Don't have to like it...but, you also don't have to use advertising methods that charge. Some of the places in events would stand well on their own without the event listing, as someone else suggested. They may even get more visitors, imo, by avoiding the event calendar until the dust settles, or permanently. They might not too, but I think it's worth a try, and won't cost anyone anything, which may well make it easier for people who really don't have the $L to list multiple events each week. 

It would be nice if LL could find methods to bring in revenue that didn't come from residents, but I think that's an unrealistic pipe dream, at this point in time. LL doesn't have a good track record in that department. 

I don't think the Lindens "make money" as such from events, formation of groups, or any other inworld charges, like texture uploads. Those are what are known as "sinks" in the monetary system, they merely take money out of the supply. In theory, if there are more sinks, the value of the Linden dollar rises as the money supply is tighter. 

But I gather the Linden fees paid on the MP are revenue, and not sinks. But perhaps a Linden could confirm this. 

[Qie Niangao]

23 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Every single way LL charges us for something, is a means for them to make money.

Kind of. Sometimes we get vocal pushback about L$-denominated charges generating any revenue for the Lab, and that pushback has some validity, but in the grand scheme of SL economics, the Lab does make some money off L$ charges, too, just not as directly as it may seem to the folks paying the L$s.

In general, L$ charges are intended not as revenue generators but as behavioural incentives. For example: Charge a paltry L$10 per upload to save the databases from an infinite number of unused images. Charge some L$s for Classified ads to make them just exclusive enough to be distinguishable from every other search listing. Charge weekly to put parcels in Search to make the search results a little tidier. Etc.

Those L$ charges are then destroyed - poof! - in "sinks" that reduce the L$s money supply.

It's not as if the Lab would sell them on the LindeX for US$ and cash them out, right?

Except, in an indirect way, they do! If the money supply is diminished by the Lab's L$ sinks, and the residents keep wanting L$s with the same level of demand, somebody (the Lab) needs to mint new L$s somehow. It does this several ways that have US$ benefit to the Lab, for example acting as a "seller of last resort" on the LindeX when the value of sink-starved L$s grows dearer than the Lab's target, or by delivering weekly stipends to Premium members in exchange for those sweet Premium subscription fees.

The point is, it's kind of a long way 'round the barn from L$ charged for Event listings to US$ collected from Premium subscriptions, but that's economics for ya.

[ChinRey]

4 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

...

just a piddly revenue stream that probably won't amount to a whole lot of revenue.

Judging by the number of listings there are now, we're talking less than 100 dollars a day.

Still, it's enough LL should be able to afford to pay somebody to spend fifteen minutes a day moderating the calendar and if they save up the income for a month or two, they can even afford to hire a good web designer to make a new and better one.

 

12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But I'm actually surprised to find folks are still using the Event listings at all.

Yes, as it is now, it's nothing but a relic of the past. But it doesn't have to be. If LL plows some of the few Lindens they make from the fee back into the calendar it is possible to make it a relevant resource for SL users again.

This should also help justify the fee. What we see both here and witht he icnreased MP fee is that LL goes for a carrot-and-stick policy only they leave out the carrot. That is they icnrease the price without really offering the people who actually have to pay anything of value in return. That's never a good idea.

 

8 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But I gather the Linden fees paid on the MP are revenue, and not sinks. But perhaps a Linden could confirm this. 

They've already confirmed it by accident. A year or two ago they mentioned the daily sales volume on MP in a blog post and from that it's easy enough to get a good idea how much their commisions add up to. I don't remember the amount but it was quite substantial.

[Jaylinbridges]

What is wrong with you folks?  When you want to use Google Search, do you enter "the" and then complain it is full of spam because you get back 50 million hits?

Searching with a keyword or words is your friend.  Are you assuming SL users are unable to use any search machine?  Do they complain they can never find a thing in their inventory because they never learned how to search?  Don't they teach that in first grade now?  Even you old timers, 15 yrs in SL, must have heard of Search.  Remember Alta Vista?  Well SL Events also has a Search box!!  Use it to find what you want, and stop complaining!

Charging won't change a thing - it is just another way to generate piddly revenue for SL.  And use the categories too, I know how difficult remembering all these things must be, which is why you just list everything about everything and claim its a mess.  

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[Teagan Tobias]

 

I am just a user, I look at search for someplace to go, not post for others. The absolute biggest problem came about with the new format where you only see a few listings on screen and a lot of dead space. Loosing the older listing format where you can actually see what is listed was a dreadful loss.

With the older format you could look at the listing and not need to scroll for hours to see what is scheduled. A lot of the span was caused by the new format, people think they need to post over and over to catch your attention since you see so little on your screen. Making five or more lines for one Event listing was useless and just asking for trouble. (and you got it!)

I have never used Firestorm but seeing the listing posted by Jaylinbridges I may need to give it a try. I always use Kokua but for some reason Events was removed from the viewer search, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!  And because of that I was left with “useless” or “bloated” to look for places to go, and for me that was terrible, about the only thing I do in SL is go to Live shows, and I just don’t do much of that anymore, and I see the format change to search as at least part of the problem.

 

[Alazarin Mondrian]

OK, I don't know if I'm one of the good or bad guys in this debate. I built my own venue which I use as a place to present and promote my music in the form of 'live gigs' which are live streamed to Facebook and YouTube. Well, about as live as it gets playing along to backing tracks in Cubase. Anyhoo... being the creature of habit that I am I do 3 of these shows every week [to keep my material fresh and sufficiently well-rehearsed for RL gigs at short notice]. I also list my shows in the events calendar quite far ahead [late October 2020 at this time of writing]. Does that make me an events list spammer? Maybe... the algorithm used to pull me up about posting multiple listings for the same event even though it was actually for separate events on different days. I got around that by changing part of the write-up text for each my listings. Also, it's 6 listings in any 24-hour period, not 5.

 

I only ever enter one event listing per event. Also, my main audience is no longer in Second Life but Facebook where my live streamed SL performances reach a larger audience.

[Alyona Su]

6 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

What is wrong with you folks?  When you want to use Google Search, do you enter "the" and then complain it is full of spam because you get back 50 million hits?

Events calendar is not like Places or People where you would obviously search for something specific or in a generalized theme. Events are a different beast altogether, how can you know what events there are unless you *browse* the list? Because if you already know enough about an event to search for it, then you don't need the events calendar, do you?

[Adam Spark]

25 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Events calendar is not like Places or People where you would obviously search for something specific or in a generalized theme. Events are a different beast altogether, how can you know what events there are unless you *browse* the list? Because if you already know enough about an event to search for it, then you don't need the events calendar, do you?

Unless you are searching for a specific singer or DJ. Many events are at least semi-regular so it isn't hard to know something about them after a while without browsing the general list. I'm out of group space and will often type names into the events calendar, or even venue names.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Adam Spark

[Nadia Chatterbox]

I’ve done the hosting thing for years and posted events per club rules.  Truth be told, $10/50 isn’t a lot.  However, I worked multiple clubs in a day.  When I did this, I worked for my $$.  And, often, I did not get tipped or paid by the club owner/manager.  Often,  I was lucky if I got $100.  I made enough to shop and rent.  And I had fun, and made some friends.    Now, I just invest a few dollars weekly.

So, you club owners requiring this, either pay your hosts to post, this does not include their shift pay.    Or post it yourself.