Tilia takes over

[Blush Bravin]

8 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

Hello, i do have a question, will we have to send AGAIN all the informations about ourselves?

I mean, all those cashout infos, LL already got those, does this concern EVERYONE? or just people that didnt send those informations on cashout yet?

 

I would be very bothered to send again those infos to LL

Thanks by adavance for answers

This is the LL answer from the official Tilia thread

I have already provided my personal info to Linden Lab in the past. Do I need to provide it again? Many of us have already provided such ID information for verification, are we exempt from having to provide it again because the information is already on record?
In general, most Residents will not need to resubmit the information if it has been previously provided. However, there may be some instances where Tilia may need to collect and verify the documentation again. 

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think I've worked out LL's strategy for dealing with criticism and questions about Tilia.

Leave them alone to chatter among themselves about it for 4 days, until they are all so flipping bored of the subject that they wander off distractedly to do something -- anything -- else.

Thereby avoiding any and all responsibility for their actions. Typical LL. And there are those who wonder why others don't trust LL with personal info. Kind of a no brainer.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

40 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Thereby avoiding any and all responsibility for their actions. Typical LL. And there are those who wonder why others don't trust LL with personal info. Kind of a no brainer.

I almost wish they were being as clever as I am jokingly suggesting they are.

But it is probably true that they think that this is a bit of a tempest in a teapot that will soon blow over and be forgotten. If so they are probably right. And I sort of hope that they are.

[Selene Gregoire]

35 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I almost wish they were being as clever as I am jokingly suggesting they are.

But it is probably true that they think that this is a bit of a tempest in a teapot that will soon blow over and be forgotten. If so they are probably right. And I sort of hope that they are.

Another mistake LL consistently makes. Sweeping it under the rug won't work. Sooner or later someone is going to move the rug to clean under it. The main reason I hear from people who refuse to join SL isn't just the sex part. It's all the times LL has tried to pull a fast one and then tried to sweep it under the rug. People outside of SL do know about these things. Shocked the hell out of me to find out that they knew. They don't join because they don't want to have to put up with LL's ... cackhanded way of doing things.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I almost wish they were being as clever as I am jokingly suggesting they are.

But it is probably true that they think that this is a bit of a tempest in a teapot that will soon blow over and be forgotten. If so they are probably right. And I sort of hope that they are.

That and the whole thing is kinda "this is how it is now, deal with it"

[Olivia Nova]

After many years in Second Life and being a sim owner/partner I see this Tillia as a death knoll of Second Life.

 SL already has my address and my credit card number etc. The is NO WAY I am giving my Social Security Number to them. There is too much

Identity theft already. So I guess as of the date I run out of money will be the date I leave SL for good and close down my two sims.

Linden Labs should have sent out feelers for this stupid move, I have already spoken to 15 close friends and creators who have been in SL

since the beginning, all say they will not give their SS Number out. My SS number is not something I give out needlessly.

I Have hundreds invested in Second life, but this is the end of that.

Thank you all of you loyal followers of my sims and stores, you have all been wonderful.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

25 minutes ago, Simie said:

 SL already has my address and my credit card number etc. The is NO WAY I am giving my Social Security Number to them. There is too much

Simie, do you ever convert your L$ to USD, and then transfer that money into PayPal or some similar external entity?

Because if you don't, you will not need to give them you SSN. That is only a requirement for those who are taking money out of SL, not for those who are putting money in, or spending it in-world only.

This from the FAQ that LL has itself posted here in General Discussion:

Quote

Only Second Life Residents who Process Credit of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal)  are impacted by the ID verification requirements (which are necessary for compliance with U.S. laws and regulations).

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Garnet Psaltery]

[Blush Bravin]

I still believe the term "cashing out" is confusing for some as demonstrated over the past few days by the questions being asked in regard to Tilia. My apology was directed to those who might have been confused by my adding to the problem by using the term "cashing out" at all.

[Qie Niangao]

49 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I still believe the term "cashing out" is confusing for some

Whatever else, on this: Can confirm.

[Mollymews]

59 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I still believe the term "cashing out" is confusing for some as demonstrated over the past few days by the questions being asked in regard to Tilia

i think the term "processing credit" is confusing for even more people than "cashing out" is

[Blush Bravin]

10 hours ago, Mollymews said:

i think the term "processing credit" is confusing for even more people than "cashing out" is

I was "cashing out" or what I referred to as cashing out for many years, beginning in 2008, before I ever withdrew funds from my USD balance. I used my USD$ balance only for paying my premium fees and tier for a good five years. When I decided to start taking money to RL I saw the term in the form to request the withdrawal calling it "process credit". So I've always used that term for transferring to Paypal.

I never took exception to the term cashing out until now, and only then because I kept seeing people asking why would they have to give their personal info to cash out when all they plan to do is pay tier and premium fees. And then there were others saying you have to give your personal info if you cash out and as a consequence they would not be cashing out anymore. Those two statements using cash out don't jive with each other because the term cash out has a different meaning in both cases.

In my experience the term cashing out is used by residents in three ways:

• meaning to exchange lindens for dollars (taking lindens OUT of their in-world account and exchanging for USD$)
• meaning to withdraw dollars to RL (taking dollars OUT of their USD balance)
• meaning the process of exchanging lindens to dollars and taking to RL (both of the prior uses rolled into one inclusive action)

The term process credit might be confusing but at least you can see the term and it's definition in the official knowledge base as well as on the form used when you request a withdrawal. There is no official documentation anywhere to define what exactly is meant by "cashing out."

Edited July 7, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

I never took exception to the term cashing out until now, and only then because I kept seeing people asking why would they have to give their personal info to cash out when all they plan to do is pay tier and premium fees

 

The term process credit might be confusing but at least you can see the term and it's definition in the official knowledge base as well as on the form used when you request a withdrawal. There is no official documentation anywhere to define what exactly is meant by "cashing out."

on the second, the term "process credit" is the accounting description of the action.  Which leads into the first

because not an accountant,  then people can and do sometimes think that "process credit" means using their credit card.  Tilia processes my credit card.  So I am being asked to provide ID to use my credit card to pay tiers and premium fees.  This understanding is completely backwards of what the term "processing credit" means from a accountancy perspective, but the person is not knowledgeable about accountancy so the confusion

cashing out, to cash, is a commonly understood phrase. Exchange my tokens/chips for cash. Which in the narrow sense of the meaning of the action is what you mean't by selling our L$ for USD.  We have exchanged our l$ tokens for cash, a ledger entry in our Tilia account. From which we make a withdrawal into our own bank account/PayPal/etc

the broader common meaning of "cashing out", the most understood  meaning, is converting our chips/tokens into cash in our hand, or into our own bank account. "cashing out"  as a term comes from casino players.  Literally going to the teller cage and exchanging our chips for cash

 

as an aside about accountancy terminology

a couple of years ago I was channel surfing the TV. Came across a re-run of an interview with Richard Branson, just after he had launched Virgin airline.  In the interview chatting about his life, his past, his approach to business, Virgin Records, his hope for Virgin airlines, etc

he and the interviewer got onto the subject of business accountancy. And Richard Branson mentioned that he had always had difficulty understanding the difference between debit and credit. At this time he has multi-million dollar businesses already.  So he says that he had recently got a colleague to explain it to him.  And then he proceeded to tell the interviewer and audience his understanding of debit and credit.  And he got it wrong. He realised this as he was talking and said: "I got that wrong! I will explain again" And he did and got it wrong again.  By which time he, the interviewer and the audience are all cracking up laughing. And Richard Branson goes: Oh! well, lucky for me I have good people who take care of all that for me

 

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

"cashing out"  as a term comes from casino players.

Precisely.

Oh... and... my normal career is accounting. 

[Blush Bravin]

8 hours ago, Mollymews said:

the broader common meaning of "cashing out", the most understood  meaning, is converting our chips/tokens into cash in our hand, or into our own bank account. "cashing out"  as a term comes from casino players.  Literally going to the teller cage and exchanging our chips for cash

 

6 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Precisely.

Oh... and... my normal career is accounting. 

If you go to a casino and cash out they will simply give you cash for your tokens. And that's that. They don't then send your money to your bank account, do they? 

[Mollymews]

23 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

 

If you go to a casino and cash out they will simply give you cash for your tokens. And that's that. They don't then send your money to your bank account, do they? 

is a colloquial use of the word.  Like if play in a online ring poker game. When sit at a table then buyin (means buy chips), when stand then cash your chips. When withdraw money from the site then cash out. When play in a poker tournament, then buyin, when make it into the money prize payouts then we cash. Withdraw money from the site then cash out

people who play online and offline casinos and poker rooms, use cash your chips and cash out your money. This usage of the words spills over into other online activities, like SL for example. Not everyone in SL uses these terms, quite a few do tho. Cash your L$, Cash out your money

 

i think if LL were to use different words to "process credit" then I would suggest that they use "withdraw/withdrawal".   Like:

"From 1 August 2019 then to withdraw USD from SL using Tilia then you will be required to provide ID"

i think most everyone who has a bank account understands what "withdraw" means in this context

[AlettaMondragon]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already, I skipped pages 11-31 due to lack of time and all but one questions I would have seem to be clear already. The linked KB article didn't answer the remaining question either, but I'd appreciate if someone could point out to an existing answer for this:

Let's say, I'll start selling my creations, and IF they ever would generate sufficient income in L$ to cover at least a portion of premium or land tier fees when converted to real USD, how do these changes with Tilia affect that? With the fees on uploading each texture, animations, and land fees to own an inworld store, I consider this topic to be a huge concern to someone who wants to start their own "enterprise" in SL and turn eventual incomes back to keep their business running, as it seems to financially affect creators. (Note that I wouldn't want to use any L$ incomes to transfer to any bank or PayPal account, but to pay USD fees in SL.)

[Blush Bravin]

9 minutes ago, AlettaMondragon said:

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already, I skipped pages 11-31 due to lack of time and all but one questions I would have seem to be clear already. The linked KB article didn't answer the remaining question either, but I'd appreciate if someone could point out to an existing answer for this:

Let's say, I'll start selling my creations, and IF they ever would generate sufficient income in L$ to cover at least a portion of premium or land tier fees when converted to real USD, how do these changes with Tilia affect that? With the fees on uploading each texture, animations, and land fees to own an inworld store, I consider this topic to be a huge concern to someone who wants to start their own "enterprise" in SL and turn eventual incomes back to keep their business running, as it seems to financially affect creators. (Note that I wouldn't want to use any L$ incomes to transfer to any bank or PayPal account, but to pay USD fees in SL.)

Tilia has no effect on anyone who simply sells their lindens for USD$. As long as you keep your USD balance in your account then fees for premium and tier will be taken from your USD$ balance. You will have to agree to the Tilia TOS only. If down the road your business takes off and you decide you want to withdraw funds (process credit) from your account, USD$ balance, then you will have to provide the necessary documents to prove your identity.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Lee McKay]

18 hours ago, Simie said:

After many years in Second Life and being a sim owner/partner I see this Tillia as a death knoll of Second Life.

 SL already has my address and my credit card number etc. The is NO WAY I am giving my Social Security Number to them. There is too much

Identity theft already. So I guess as of the date I run out of money will be the date I leave SL for good and close down my two sims.

Linden Labs should have sent out feelers for this stupid move, I have already spoken to 15 close friends and creators who have been in SL

since the beginning, all say they will not give their SS Number out. My SS number is not something I give out needlessly.

I Have hundreds invested in Second life, but this is the end of that.

Thank you all of you loyal followers of my sims and stores, you have all been wonderful.

Death isn't a hilltop (knoll)....it's "death knell". And this isn't it....LOL

[Lindal Kidd]

17 minutes ago, Lee McKay said:

Death isn't a hilltop (knoll)....it's "death knell". And this isn't it....LOL

Thank you, and you are now designated as an official member of the Second Life Grammar Police, of which I am the head.

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Lee McKay said:

Death isn't a hilltop (knoll)....it's "death knell". And this isn't it....LOL

And you are so perfect that you never make a typographical error. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

50 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

And you are so perfect that you never make a typographical error. 

Well, yes. Which of us doesn't make this kind of error?

I'm as much a grammar nerd as anyone -- maybe more so than most, because I get paid to correct grammar and spelling -- but this sort of harping doesn't seem to be very helpful.

People come here to ask questions or express their concerns because they are confused, or not fully informed. The most useful thing we can do here, not for LL but simply because we like people, is to help them by answering their questions or addressing their misconceptions. If occasional or first-time posters think they are going to be mocked or corrected because of grammatical issues, typos, or spelling mistakes . . . well, they're not going to want to come here and ask those questions. And that would be a shame.

(I want to make it clear I'm not critiquing Lindal here: she is possibly the most helpful and caring SL resident I've ever known.)

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

i think if LL were to use different words to "process credit" then I would suggest that they use "withdraw/withdrawal".   Like:

"From 1 August 2019 then to withdraw USD from SL using Tilia then you will be required to provide ID"

i think most everyone who has a bank account understands what "withdraw" means in this context

Yes, because as interesting as the conversation about the "correct" language to employ here is, it's largely irrelevant in the context.

We can't agree among ourselves what these terms mean, and we are clearly not going even going to be able to get people posting to use the "correct" language. The notion that, in the larger and more important picture, we're going to be able to educate the 10s of thousands of residents who don't even know of the existence of the forums or the SL blog in the meaning of terms like "credit processing" or "cash out" is pretty much nil.

I am sure there are probably legalistic reasons why LL uses the language it does in the Tilia TOS, and if that's the case, then they need to be sure they are also defining them.

But in relation to the larger (and, honestly, more important) task of simply informing its user base about these changes, LL absolutely must use simple, descriptive, and unambiguous language. Most people don't read carefully: they skim. And if all residents are informed that they will need to submit ID, including SSN or equivalent, to "process credit," there is going to be a meltdown on the grid to match nothing we've seen before, regardless of whether or not a definition is provided.

[Selene Gregoire]

14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, yes. Which of us doesn't make this kind of error?

I'm as much a grammar nerd as anyone -- maybe more so than most, because I get paid to correct grammar and spelling -- but this sort of harping doesn't seem to be very helpful.

People come here to ask questions or express their concerns because they are confused, or not fully informed. The most useful thing we can do here, not for LL but simply because we like people, is to help them by answering their questions or addressing their misconceptions. If occasional or first-time posters think they are going to be mocked or corrected because of grammatical issues, typos, or spelling mistakes . . . well, they're not going to want to come here and ask those questions. And that would be a shame.

Now how did I know you'd be along to say what I didn't say but was thinking? 

Quote

(I want to make it clear I'm not critiquing Lindal here: she is possibly the most helpful and caring SL resident I've ever known.)

Annnnd back to chopped liver again. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Annnnd back to chopped liver again. 

Why would I need to cite you specifically in this context? I was agreeing with you!