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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Thank you, and you are now designated as an official member of the Second Life Grammar Police, of which I am the head.

actually it was a lexical and no grammar issue... I might have to put your membership in the Metaverse Nitpickers Society on hold if you continue walking down that line ;)

 

Edited by Fionalein
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Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Why would I need to cite you specifically in this context? I was agreeing with you!

lol Not what I meant. It was kind of a dig at myself because it's rare that anyone will give me a chance to be the caring, helpful person that I actually am. I tend to withdraw (that word!) because all too often my caring and help are rejected in the most unpleasant of ways and I've had about all of that kind of treatment I can deal with for one lifetime.

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8 hours ago, Fionalein said:

actually it was a lexical and no grammar issue... I might have to put your membership in the Metaverse Nitpickers Society on hold if you continue walking down that line ;)

 

Don't argue with your old Grammar, or she'll beat you with her cane.

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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

in relation to the larger (and, honestly, more important) task of simply informing its user base about these changes, LL absolutely must use simple, descriptive, and unambiguous language.

agree

as an aside.  Board members and CEOs like it kept simple as well. They do want everything covered off properly for sure. The legals, i and t, etc. That's what financial, legal, technical and compliance officers are for, to look after all that stuff. But they do not want their customer relations officers going all legal/technical on the customers for no good reason

a thing. Oz Linden came on this forum recently to correct a customer who had misunderstood the meaning of "process credit". My thought when he did this was: What are you doing ?  You are head of technical development.  Where is your customer relations officer ?

 

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46 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

Where is your customer relations officer ?

LL has never really had one. They lumped it in with customer service not realizing that the two are completely different things and are only related because they both deal with customers. Service and relations go hand in hand but they are not the same. 

Yes, I know, a lot of people these days don't see it that way but they are mostly (not all!) under 35 and never saw how business was conducted as it was when I was young. They don't know what they are missing or how bad they actually have it.

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OMG. it took me a few days to finish reading this thread. a very grueling experience. i was reading like 5-10 pages and realizing that a few more pages popped up.

why do those that don't sell their $L for USD, and/or have no USD in their ll account should have to become tilia members and to accept tilias TOS? its kind of illogical. i suppose i shouldn't hold my breath waiting for ll explain that:(

i guess that if i want to continue to use sl i will have to agree to this:( but i will do it only under duress. from what i understand in rl if u sign a contract u can write "under duress" and it will be up to a judge to determine if indeed was true in case you decide to sue. maybe we should make a new post for all avatars that want to make it clear their are agreeing to tilas TOS but under duress:)

p.s.

since tilia is a uk business that pays taxes to the queen, and since it will be taxing sl avatars, does that make all avatars british subjects since we will indirectly pay the queen taxes? imagine being an american and finding out on 4h of july that you might become again a british subject:)

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Rex Cronon said:

why do those that don't sell their $L for USD, and/or have no USD in their ll account should have to become tilia members and to accept tilias TOS? its kind of illogical. i suppose i shouldn't hold my breath waiting for ll explain that:(

This is purely a guess, but I think there are possibly at least four reasons why LL wants everyone signed up for Tilia.

  • In practice, and despite what they've said in their FAQ, it would appear that everyone who buys or processes L$ in any way is actually already using Tilia, even if they don't have an official "account." Tilia is what "powers" (LL's word) in-world financial transactions.
     
  • I suspect that they are trying to centralize and rationalize the way in which they administer the financial end of things in SL -- or at least the currency aspect of it -- and so they want all operations relating to that running through Tilia. If it's true that Tilia is doing more than merely looking after the USD balances and transfers out of SL, they aren't going to want to duplicate operations by having those who take money out of the system administered in one part of the company, and everyone else administered in another.
     
  • Because Tilia will be charging an "Inactivity Fee," its operations extend to anyone who ever has a USD account, whether or not they are "cashing out" (or whatever you want to call it) to PayPal or another external entity.
     
  • As someone above suggested -- I've forgotten who, or I'd quote it -- LL seems to want to contract Tilia's services out to other platforms that require similar types of currency administration. If they can claim that they already administer, say, 500,000 accounts rather than 25,000, it looks better, and makes Tilia appear bigger, more professional, and more attractive.

So far as I can figure, the Tilia TOS applies pretty much only to USD balances. So, if you don't have a USD balance, or never send your money out of SL, the TOS is kind of moot: it can't "do" anything to you because it is only applicable in that one small area of operations.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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On 7/7/2019 at 3:44 PM, Blush Bravin said:

Tilia has no effect on anyone who simply sells their lindens for USD$. As long as you keep your USD balance in your account then fees for premium and tier will be taken from your USD$ balance. You will have to agree to the Tilia TOS only. If down the road your business takes off and you decide you want to withdraw funds (process credit) from your account, USD$ balance, then you will have to provide the necessary documents to prove your identity.

Alright, thank you! If the official standpoint is just like that, it doesn't seem to be bad at all. Except for the questionable wording of Tilia's TOS of course, but hopefully they will adjust it to be more reasonable.

3 hours ago, Rex Cronon said:

since tilia is a uk business that pays taxes to the queen, and since it will be taxing sl avatars, does that make all avatars british subjects since we will indirectly pay the queen taxes? imagine being an american and finding out on 4h of july that you might become again a british subject:)

I know you meant that as a joke, but it sounds like if I buy something on ebay from a UK citizen, who pays taxes for the Queen, and the product itself has been paid taxes for in the UK, I would become a "british subject". Fortunately, it does not work like that. LOL

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So, at the risk of sounding a bit grumpy about all of this . . . I think I'm kind of done with this whole Tilia thing.

LL took five days to come back with a total of seven more "answers," some of which are redundant, and that are mostly so obvious that I could have probably written them, without consulting lawyers and experts. They more or less come down to:

  • Will you give our data to the US government? Only if they make us.
     
  • Will our data be safe? Yes, because "standards"
     
  • Will you data mine or sell our data? No.
     
  • How will we know we need to provide ID? We'll tell you when you try to transfer cash out of SL. And we'll set up something ahead of time too.
     
  • Will Tilia employees see our data? Yes, but only to verify your account.
     
  • What is "a process credit" *groan*

The three most pressing questions: what will the "inactivity fee" be, why does everyone need to sign on to Tilia, and what kinds of provision are available for those who are not US citizens, remain unanswered.

Meanwhile, they've erased a few of the resident answers (including, I think, at least one of mine, although maybe not, I've lost track) that forumites have tried to provide. Which, again, I understand . . . or would understand, if they were replacing them with their own answers. But they aren't. Instead, I suppose, those with questions are supposed to scan through the lengthy and disorganized answers in the OP. The original blog post, and the FAQ attached to it, have not been updated at all. And frankly, helping out by trying to answer questions is starting to feel more than a little pointless, not to mention thankless (*ahem* HOUSEBOAT, LL? Remember?).

I really hope that LL gets this all together before August 1. The vast majority of residents still, I think, aren't aware that this is even happening. Maybe I'm wrong to be worried about that, and 99% of residents will greet it with a shrug? Maybe LL is counting on indifference? I guess we'll see.

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17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

what will the "inactivity fee" be

It's my impression at this point and with the evasive way this question has been answered. it's looking like "every penny of your tilia USD balance, and not a penny more".

... which if that is the case, I cynically feel we don't need to ask why everyone will be getting a tilia account.

 

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24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, at the risk of sounding a bit grumpy about all of this . . . I think I'm kind of done with this whole Tilia thing.

LL took five days to come back with a total of seven more "answers," some of which are redundant, and that are mostly so obvious that I could have probably written them, without consulting lawyers and experts.

 I was a bit dismayed. They answered all the EASY questions and none of the hard ones LOL. Well hey. 

 

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The three most pressing questions: what will the "inactivity fee" be, why does everyone need to sign on to Tilia, and what kinds of provision are available for those who are not US citizens, remain unanswered.

Honestly, didn't they already say that they don't "know" what the inactivity fee will be?  I somehow got that impression. It IS over a year away since no one will be charged until a year after August 1.  So that isn't a biggie for me. Log into your account once a year and no worries.  There are FEES mentioned in the Tilia TOS though that are very much undefined. That is a worry. 

 

BUT several folks echoed my number three I think question about the reasoning of ALL residents having to OK Tilia's TOS when 90 percent or more will never use Tilia. I look forward to seeing that answer and "spin" ^^.  

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Meanwhile, they've erased a few of the resident answers (including, I think, at least one of mine, although maybe not, I've lost track) that forumites have tried to provide. Which, again, I understand . . . or would understand, if they were replacing them with their own answers. But they aren't. Instead, I suppose, those with questions are supposed to scan through the lengthy and disorganized answers in the OP. The original blog post, and the FAQ attached to it, have not been updated at all. And frankly, helping out by trying to answer questions is starting to feel more than a little pointless, not to mention thankless (*ahem* HOUSEBOAT, LL? Remember?).

Quite a few people noted that their questions had been deleted.  I haven't really been watching that thread other than waiting for some official post. They seemed to leave repeat questions so not sure why some were deleted. Mine, last I checked were all there. 

 

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I really hope that LL gets this all together before August 1. The vast majority of residents still, I think, aren't aware that this is even happening. Maybe I'm wrong to be worried about that, and 99% of residents will greet it with a shrug? Maybe LL is counting on indifference? I guess we'll see.

Exactly what "I" have been thinking. I am not sure that they realized though HOW MANY people plan to go  back to basic when their (sometimes out to 2021) premium membership is over. Makes ya kind of wonder about the timing of the "get a bargain now" offer on membership right before the Tilia announcement.  I only opted for the pay ahead on one account as that was "too far in the future" for me. I am in the pay your rent each week camp and avoid issues. 

 

 And reportedly a LOT of smaller creators are closing up shop.  That I am sad about.  I don't plan to send money to Paypal any longer, but I am not closing my shop. Apparently others just threw up their hands. I haven't heard many people LEAVING though, so that's a plus I guess. 

 

Looking forward to the Town Hall --- 

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@Scylla Rhiadra

 

I was thinking about this as I cleaned up the kitchen for berry pickers (so domestic am I) and the fact that I personally don't know anyone that plans to leave. That is a very small part of the SL pie of course, a tiny sampling and in no way indicative of the mood. BUT as you say, most citizens don't even know there is a change coming.  Out of about 20 accounts that I know of (some mine= some friends) I was the only one that got an email, this on the account that cashes out.  So that isn't a good percentage at all. 

 

I was thinking back to 2013 and what happened there. There was no warning then. Most everyone clicked through. I read the document (but not well enough  I found out later when someone went through and marked ALL the changes between the old TOS and the NEW TOS -- they should have a plaque of gratitude; a LOT of people read their work and it made things much more clear ). People  logged in and got a TOS agreement. I think that there had been one not long before that but I could be wrong there. So the attitude was kinda "oh no not another one" for many people. 

 

Once the citizens that cared figured out what the changes were, there was a HUGE outcry. RL - SL attorneys got involve, threads went on forever -- really forever, etc.  In the aftermath people left. Many artists, some creators; not sure about shoppers and decorator and roleplay types. I went over to Opensim for a couple of years and learned a lot (free) and didn't upload but one informational texture to SL for eight months -- sort of a personal protest kind of thing but obviously not a big one.   When the dust settled some more I came back -- still not happy but fairly certain that what COULD happen under the TOS wasn't going to happen as that would really be the end of SL.  

 

So the bottom line is we don't know how this is going to shake out. The observer in me is very interested from the far away vantage point, the "person" has her ducks in a row already so I too am kind of done with Tilia.  

 

I have already talked to most of my friends list (it really IS tiny so it wasn't hard) but it really would be good to spread the word a bit more -- outside the forums and blogs and maybe FB.  Folks should know there is going to be a Town Hall.   Most will never read the announcement. 

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The bulk of the userbase wont know anything has changed till the ToS appears on their screens and everyone freaks out.

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It's LL. Did anyone really expect anything different? Rhetorical question. 

One can hope but expecting LL to change is always going to be a let down.. 

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4 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

BUT as you say, most citizens don't even know there is a change coming.  Out of about 20 accounts that I know of (some mine= some friends) I was the only one that got an email, this on the account that cashes out.  So that isn't a good percentage at all.

 

3 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

The bulk of the userbase wont know anything has changed till the ToS appears on their screens and everyone freaks out.

 

3 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It's LL. Did anyone really expect anything different? Rhetorical question. 

One can hope but expecting LL to change is always going to be a let down.

The thing is, I don't think it needs to be a big crisis. I actually have some faith that this isn't really a big deal. I'm quite ready to believe that they are legally obliged to verify accounts for transferring cash out of SL; I'm relatively confident that the inactivity fee won't just be a money grab; I'm sure that the data will be as secure (and not mined or handed over to the government) as one can reasonably expect these days.

What I increasingly don't have confidence in is LL's ability to communicate this in a way that doesn't create unnecessary angst and anger.

I really sort of expected, or at least hoped, that we'd see not merely more actual information than we got, but some evidence of something looking like a "communications plan" for engaging with the resident community, not just here on the forum (which probably doesn't matter that much in the big picture) but on the grid as a whole. And boy, did we not see that. The bits of information -- what Chic accurately calls the "easy answers" -- almost look like afterthoughts. "Hey, didn't we promise we'd pass on more answers today? Does someone want to go on to the forum and throw them something to chew on, so they don't think we forgot?"

Oh well. Maybe we'll see some signs of a communications strategy in the coming days. And maybe people won't notice that they're being asked to agree to a TOS for an app they've never heard of before. Or maybe they won't care.

It's all just a little depressing and frustrating, and I don't see a lot of point in caring much anymore as LL exhibits few signs that they do.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The thing is, I don't think it needs to be a big crisis. I actually have some faith that this isn't really a big deal. I'm quite ready to believe that they are legally obliged to verify accounts for transferring cash out of SL; I'm relatively confident that the inactivity fee won't just be a money grab; I'm sure that the data will be as secure (and not mined or handed over to the government) as one can reasonably expect these days.

Yeah, I totally get why they need the information, although I have concerns over the security of the data, I really hope Tilia have their ducks in a line and not online.

Huge change they have been working towards for years. Bare minimum notice directed to a tiny minority of the user-base from a faceless company account.

This isn't LL herp derping around, this is the strategy.

Edited by CoffeeDujour
I spelt derping wrong. derp.
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1 minute ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Yeah, I totally get why they need the information, although I have concerns over the security of the data, I really hope Tilia have their ducks in a line and not online.

Huge change they have been working towards for years. Bare minimum notice directed to a tiny minority of the user-base from a faceless company account.

This isn't LL herp depring around, this is the strategy.

Ugh.

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43 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

handed over to the government

Since its the government that hands out passport/ID's and social security numbers, I doubt they have to ask for them at external sources ;)

Is the US government allowed to ask (and get) any information they want from US based companies if they pull the Patriot Act card? at least, that's how its perceived over here and a reason why many EU companies don't want their data in US based cloud solutions.

 

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2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The thing is, I don't think it needs to be a big crisis. I actually have some faith that this isn't really a big deal.

everything that concerns privacy is a big deal, it might not be a big impact, but thats something different.

What worries me more, is the total desinterest of LL to show any compassion and (here is the word) community feel themself, a lack of any efford to really explain things in a normal language instead of dumping a lawyers document into the blogs.

And... all the responses show, for me, a majority of residents simply doesn't trust the foggy descisions of the lab dumped without clarification. But for some reason after 16 years they still don't seem to notice that. Think that makes the real damage, not the fuzz about the whole thing.

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Posted (edited)

So, as promised, I sat down and read the Tilia TOS. Here are a few observations. Not legal advice, of course. If you have any legal questions about your specific situation, you should consult with an appropriately licensed attorney, not a person posting on the forums.

That said, my overall impression is that LL has badly handled the PR around a change that is, itself, not very scary. Linden Lab could have said the following: "Starting August 1, 2019, our subsidiary, Tilia, will take over processing US Dollar accounts. You will see a popup when you login on or after that date requiring you to agree to the Tilia TOS, which are available (link) here. Some persons redeeming Linden dollars for real life currency may be required to provide identifying information about themselves, which is already the case for many who redeem Lindens for real life currency, and may also be subject to an inactivity fee charged to U.S. Dollar amounts stored in their accounts and not redeemed. We do not envision any major changes that will affect the majority of users." That probably would have avoided a lot of the fuss. 

  • The scariest part is probably the second paragraph of section 1.1, which provides, in relevant part as "To create a Tilia Account and/or [do other stuff not relevant to my point]  we may require you to provide us with your name, address, date of birth, telephone number, street address or zip code,  and other information that will allow us to identify you." If all SL users are creating Tilia accounts, then this means that Tilia could require all SL users to provide this information. The fact that they could, of course, does not mean that they will. And personally, it doesn't bother me if Linden Lab knows who I am. They already do. 
  • The inactivity fee is going affect few people. The Tilia TOS envisions a two step process of converting Lindens to real life dollars. Step 1 is to convert the Linden balance on your account to a US Dollar account. Step 2 is to "cash out" that US Dollar balance and receive an actual real world payment. The inactivity fee is charged to the US Dollar balance if you take step 1, but don't take step 2, and then you leave that U.S. Dollar balance sitting in your account.
  • There's an interesting potential loophole. The Tilia TOS provides for people to be able to close their accounts once opened. But nothing in the SL or Tilia TOS requires users to maintain an active Tilia account to maintain an account in SL. 
  • Much of what people are panicking about is stuff they already agreed to in the SL TOS that is fairly standard stuff. For example, the arbitration clause, class action waiver, and so on. This is all common corporate contract stuff that you can find in ever increasing numbers. Whether it should be standard or not--I happen to think it shouldn't be--is another matter and would involve changes to the Federal Arbitration Act, it's state law equivalents, and the law concerning class action waivers. As it is, the law is setup in a way that really encourages corporations to do this.

Having said that, there are some problems, but they seem to affect Linden Labs.  

  • No fee schedule. You can't really form a contract without agreement and you can't have agreement if the material terms are not disclosed. It is not clear to me that the agreement to pay fees is enforceable without any disclosure of what those fees are. At least some of this information has since been provided, but initially it was not.
  • Piercing the corporate veil. This will take a little explaining. A big part of why people form corporations is because the corporation assumes liability for its wrongdoing and the corporation's owners generally don't. You don't sue the shareholders of Ford for making a bad car, for example; you sue Ford, Inc. instead. This protection against liability is sometimes called the corporate veil. It works the same way whether the corporation is owned by human shareholders or another corporation. In fact, this liability protection is why corporations setup subsidiaries and it is probably why Tilia is a subsidiary instead of simply being a division of Linden Lab. But there are exceptions to this general rule. Dramatically oversimplifying this, if a corporation is used in a way that it's clear that it is simply an instrumentality or an alter ego of the owner, then the corporation's owners have potential to be held liable for the corporation's actions. This is called "piercing the corporate veil." We haven't seen how this is actually going to look, but I wonder if LL might be putting itself in a situation where Tilia's veil could be pierced and LL could be held liable for Tilia's actions given the close integration between LL and its subsidiary, the requirement for all users to have an account in both to have an account in SL, etc. Other unknown facts could raise or lower the risk.
  • This contract has typos and editing errors and the like. Missing words and the like. My "favorite" appears in section 3.3.5 where the TOS discussed what happens "if we terminate your Account pursuant to Section 3.6 below[.]" The document contains no section 3.6.

All things considered, I found this to be a bit sloppy, but not too alarming for my personal situation. I always recommend consulting an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction for advice about your personal situation. For the record, I am not available.

Edited by Female Winslet
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5 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

And... all the responses show, for me, a majority of residents simply doesn't trust the foggy descisions of the lab dumped without clarification. But for some reason after 16 years they still don't seem to notice that. Think that makes the real damage, not the fuzz about the whole thing.

The number of people commenting and complaining is an utterly minuscule number of SL residents. 

It's almost like some people here have never met another human being. We (as a whole) have conditioned ourselves to check the "accept" box and move to the next screen without a second thought. 

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5 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

So, as promised, I sat down and read the Tilia TOS.

This is a really useful analysis! Thank you. I think you've really nailed it.

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28 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

The number of people commenting and complaining is an utterly minuscule number of SL residents.

You're right, of course, Beth . . . but in part that's because very few people are yet even aware of what's coming at them on August 1.

29 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

It's almost like some people here have never met another human being. We (as a whole) have conditioned ourselves to check the "accept" box and move to the next screen without a second thought.

And this may very well be what happens. What may make this a bit different is that residents won't be ticking off the "accept" box to yet another SL ToS, but for a company and application called "Tilia" that most residents will not have even heard of before. Unless, of course, LL makes some real effort to start educating them about it. A great many people may well not even notice -- but a higher percentage than usual, at the least, are going to stare at the popup on their screen, and say "Huh?"

I think the discussion here has been really valuable. We should not, of course, simply check off boxes without reading what we are agreeing to, and the threads here have ensured, I think, that many of us are much better informed about Tilia than we otherwise would have been. My own sense from what I've learned here is that this isn't, as Female notes above, very "scary," although there are still some important unanswered questions. But it's nice to be able to make that determination from a position of being more-or-less well informed.

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9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The thing is, I don't think it needs to be a big crisis.

Every big crisis LL has created didn't need to be one. And they have created quite a few in 16 years. More than any other company I have ever dealt with. The residents aren't creating these situations, LL is because they have yet to learn how to present things, nor have they learned that shoving things down people's throat just makes them resentful, to say the least. There is no need for everyone to agree to Tilia's terms when they will not be withdrawing USD. That is pure laziness on LL's part. I know it, they know it, others know it. It also opens up legal liabilities for those who agree to terms for a service they don't want or need just so they can continue to use the service they do want. That is agreeing under duress, which is a legal defense that can be quite effective. 

And before anyone claims it will never happen, don't bet on it. It has happened and it will happen again. And I don't mean just LL either so don't try to pull that one on me.

That wasn't directed at you, Scylla, or anyone in particular. I'm just fed up with the bs being shoveled from all directions. One thing LL does seem to have down pat, divide and conquer. They've divided the user base so many times over the years, I believe they are doing it on purpose so that they don't have to do things like make Tilia OPT IN/OPT OUT. Which is the RIGHT thing to do. It's also quite legal.

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I'd hazard a guess that at least some LL staff charged with explaining all this didn't have it properly explained to them.  It wouldn't be the first time that happened.

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