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Rathgrith027

Some kind of Answer to the Land Baron problem?

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6 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

You do realise you have to follow all the ways, right? Not just one....

Apparently he is not alone... I should AR much more

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5 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

But it is O.o

It clearly states this in the SL Wiki:

What does "advertises or publicly promotes" mean?

The maturity ratings distinguish between publicly-promoted adult content, required to be on Adult regions, and non-public adult content, such as private homes with a sex bed, that can be located on Moderate land.

Adult activities cannot be advertised or publicly promoted on Moderate land. Such activity must occur privately, behind closed doors on Moderate land (see below), and is forbidden on General land. These restrictions apply regardless of whether the parcel has hidden avatars.

Advertising for SL search using adult words clearly requires being on Adult land. Other examples of advertising or publicly-promoting include renting signs inworld, listing on events, buying ads in newspapers, or distributing flyers or notecards to passersby.

Private invitations to friends are not considered advertising or promoting. Inviting everyone in a small private group that you control is not considered advertising. However, inviting everyone in a public group can be considered a promotional effort.

What does "behind closed doors" mean?

Adult activity on Moderate land must be conducted "behind closed doors," meaning that you must make every reasonable effort to ensure that the parcel is private. This means:

  • Allow only a group or specific individuals access to the parcel. If it is group-access only, the group must not be freely open to join.
  • Hide avatars (turn off avatar visibility) for the parcel.
  • Enclose the area behind walls or other visual barriers.

Thanks for the info - The lindens need to make this more clear - as it'd help peeps know they don't need to buy Zindran land for personal lewding. 

That aside - 

24 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

You do realise you have to follow all the ways, right? Not just one....

It depends. I mean, if it's a sex bed or couch or anything with sexual animations that isn't visibly sexual (like a kitchen with sex animations) you wouldn't need to hide it behind visual barriers because it's not inherently sexual. Now, if it's a sex machine or something pertaining to bondage, then yeah, a interior room in a house or a basement with no windows to the outside would be compliant with the rule.

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2 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

Thanks for the info - The lindens need to make this more clear - as it'd help peeps know they don't need to buy Zindran land for personal lewding. 

That aside - 

It depends. I mean, if it's a sex bed or couch or anything with sexual animations that isn't visibly sexual (like a kitchen with sex animations) you wouldn't need to hide it behind visual barriers because it's not inherently sexual. Now, if it's a sex machine or something pertaining to bondage, then yeah, a interior room in a house or a basement with no windows to the outside would be compliant with the rule.

I fully agree with you as above the list it says "Adult activity". So things should be fine until they're being used. Either way, no need to limit yourself to Zindra ^_^

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So which is it? 

4 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

You do realise you have to follow all the ways, right? Not just one....

Or?

3 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:
3 hours ago, Rathgrith027 said:

Thanks for the info - The lindens need to make this more clear - as it'd help peeps know they don't need to buy Zindran land for personal lewding. 

That aside - 

It depends. I mean, if it's a sex bed or couch or anything with sexual animations that isn't visibly sexual (like a kitchen with sex animations) you wouldn't need to hide it behind visual barriers because it's not inherently sexual. Now, if it's a sex machine or something pertaining to bondage, then yeah, a interior room in a house or a basement with no windows to the outside would be compliant with the rule.

I fully agree with you as above the list it says "Adult activity". So things should be fine until they're being used. Either way, no need to limit yourself to Zindra ^_^

Either they have to follow all the ways or not even if the sex furniture isn't being used. And if you have avatars hidden and bann lines on NO ONE will be able to see you using the furniture anyway. No real need for a privacy wall. Anyone can camm through them anyway. 

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2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So which is it? 

Or?

Either they have to follow all the ways or not even if the sex furniture isn't being used. And if you have avatars hidden and bann lines on NO ONE will be able to see you using the furniture anyway. No real need for a privacy wall. Anyone can camm through them anyway. 

A bed is a bed is a bed. It does not become 'sex furniture' unless it's used as such. Same goes for kitchens and any other available surface in the house you might be willing to christen.

And it's not or. All three rules need to be followed or they would have seperated them with the word 'or' like Fiona  has already mentioned. @Dakota Linden can we get verification here please? Do all rules need to be followed or just one.

What does "behind closed doors" mean?

Adult activity on Moderate land must be conducted "behind closed doors," meaning that you must make every reasonable effort to ensure that the parcel is private. This means:

  • Allow only a group or specific individuals access to the parcel. If it is group-access only, the group must not be freely open to join.
  • Hide avatars (turn off avatar visibility) for the parcel.
  • Enclose the area behind walls or other visual barriers.

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5 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

A bed is a bed is a bed. It does not become 'sex furniture' unless it's used as such. Same goes for kitchens and any other available surface in the house you might be willing to christen.

And it's not or. All three rules need to be followed or they would have seperated them with the word 'or' like Fiona  has already mentioned. @Dakota Linden can we get verification here please? Do all rules need to be followed or just one.

What does "behind closed doors" mean?

Adult activity on Moderate land must be conducted "behind closed doors," meaning that you must make every reasonable effort to ensure that the parcel is private. This means:

  • Allow only a group or specific individuals access to the parcel. If it is group-access only, the group must not be freely open to join.
  • Hide avatars (turn off avatar visibility) for the parcel.
  • Enclose the area behind walls or other visual barriers.

It says nothing about sex furniture.. It says "Adult Activity." That means i can have any number of sex toys and bondage devices out as long as they aren't being used. Again, walls can be cammed through, the list is outdated. If you can't see the avs and can't get on the land whats the point of a wall that can be derendered anyway? 

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6 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

It says nothing about sex furniture.. It says "Adult Activity." That means i can have any number of sex toys and bondage devices out as long as they aren't being used.

That is correct and it's exactly what said in my response to the OP:

4 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

I fully agree with you as above the list it says "Adult activity". So things should be fine until they're being used. Either way, no need to limit yourself to Zindra ^_^

Which you argued against stating that:

17 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Either they have to follow all the ways or not even if the sex furniture isn't being used.

Which side of the argument are you on? I'm confused as you seem to be on both at once.

Edited by Syn Anatine
All the typos

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6 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Which side of the argument are you on? I'm confused as you seem to be on both at once.

I'm on the side that says walls do nothing to stop people from peeping. Why do i have to waste prims for a wall that can be derendered by anyone that wants to peep? Again, if they cant get on the land and cant see the avs from outside it, why bother with a wall. 

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Just now, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Why do i have to waste prims for a wall that can be derendered by anyone that wants to peep?

Because if you want to have sex on moderate land that is what LL tells you to do. It's your decision whether or not to follow the TOS on this, and your decision to live with the consequences should push come to shove *shrug* The rules are clear on this, so I am not sure why you're even asking, or did I just answer a rhetorical question?

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2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I'm on the side that says walls do nothing to stop people from peeping. Why do i have to waste prims for a wall that can be derendered by anyone that wants to peep? Again, if they cant get on the land and cant see the avs from outside it, why bother with a wall. 

The policy is not about protecting from prying eyes the privacy of us pixel perverts. Rather, it's to save the potential embarrassment of the easily offended innocent bystander. (Presumably if they're derendering walls, they're Not So Innocent.)

That said, it makes sense that parcels that are both avatar-hidden and restricted access shouldn't really need walls to hide any racy content. (The access restriction would be needed to protect our innocent passerby from wandering into the content-hiding parcel.)

So why both walls and the parcel privacy setting? Belt and suspenders? Who can guess?[*]

FWIW, the Zindra migration was happening in July 2009; whereas parcel privacy settings were first available in Viewer 2.8 which was released in July 2011 so there must have been a couple years of Adult Content policy that couldn't have specified a setting for parcel privacy.

___________
[* ETA: well, here's a guess, but it's only a guess. Consider an innocent intrepid pilot crossing into a privacy-protected parcel above the height where whitelist banlines restrict access. In theory, I guess that parcel would pass the restricted access requirement and the need for the parcel privacy setting, but once venturers are inside the parcel, they can see anything that's happening at any height within, possibly unintentionally offending their delicate sensibilities if it's not "behind closed doors." Of course it's way more likely an intruder is perv-camming, but again the policy isn't about that, it's about reducing the likelihood of exposure to those who don't want to see that content.]

Edited by Qie Niangao
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On 4/11/2018 at 12:41 PM, Lisa006 Baxton said:

As I stated in another thread......As long as someone, somewhere is paying the tier on the land, Linden Lab has no concerns. Now if the real estates companies decide to abandon the land then some concerns may arise from the Lab.

Land Barons usually know how to price the land and adjust accordingly to changes in the market. Just because you don't feel a piece of land is worth 12KL doesn't mean the next resident will feel the same. 

Yep.

Now consider how the land barons pays that tier...

The answer is that often they do not. They run 'donate your tier' groups. People donate them a LOT of tier.

If you want to dry up land barons... find a way to convince people to stop donating tier to them.

As for 'adjust accordingly'... many of these pricey lots sit unsold for years. The land baron isn't paying for the tier... so they have no motive to sell. Some of them even believe they are doing us a service by 'keeping the riff raff out'... (go talk to some of them, they believe they act for a noble cause to maintain quality - they are not wholly wrong... before land barons moved into Zindra it was full of 'easy online business kit' plots that looks mighty ugly... they just take it too far).

 

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On 4/16/2018 at 7:09 AM, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You can have all the sex toys you want on your own porch in M land that you want. As long as you have Hide avatars from other parcels on no one can see what you are doing. 

If I put a 'sybian' that has a visible 'rideable dildo' on the front lawn of an 'M' plot by the roadside... I suspect there would be issues with that.

What confuses me on the wiki, that seems new, is this line:

  • Allow only a group or specific individuals access to the parcel. If it is group-access only, the group must not be freely open to join.

So, does this mean that if someone has a sexbed in their private home skybox at 4000m up, the land must have banlines? If so... that is a change from past years.

 

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3 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Yep.

Now consider how the land barons pays that tier...

The answer is that often they do not. They run 'donate your tier' groups. People donate them a LOT of tier.

If you want to dry up land barons... find a way to convince people to stop donating tier to them.

As for 'adjust accordingly'... many of these pricey lots sit unsold for years. The land baron isn't paying for the tier... so they have no motive to sell. Some of them even believe they are doing us a service by 'keeping the riff raff out'... (go talk to some of them, they believe they act for a noble cause to maintain quality - they are not wholly wrong... before land barons moved into Zindra it was full of 'easy online business kit' plots that looks mighty ugly... they just take it too far).

 

In order to be part of a  'donate your tier' group and become a donor, a resident would have to be PAYING linden lab to even have tier to donate. So again, somebody, somewhere is paying Linden Lab whether its through donation or not. Let the land sit for years. Linden Lab is still getting their cut. I am sure donors are being compensated for the tier they donate or it would not be a thing. 

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On 4/16/2018 at 8:18 AM, Qie Niangao said:

My understanding of the policy is that publicly promoted (searchable) Adult content must always be in Adult-rated regions only, and the behind-closed-doors exception only applies to private (unsearchable) M-rated parcels.

I delved deeply into this a couple of years or so ago and what I found then so far as what was needed for adult activities on moderate land, seems to be a lot different than "today". It certainly could be that the wiki is out of date (wouldn't be the first or twentieth time a wiki has been no longer current :).  

At that time I was researching there were TONS of restrictions if you wanted to have adult behavior on the same land as a store or public access parcel (landing point only access for one thing).

NOW there are adult items out and to TRY OUT (presumably not naked but still) at most all of the M rated event venues -- on the MAIN FLOOR. I questioned this about a year or so ago and was told by the event owner that it was "perfectly legal and within the terms of service".  Since then I have seen adult example furniture at many events -- and on the floor to try.  So I have to admit that while I don't NEED to know, I am definitely confused over what is currently OK on M land and what is not.

There was a time long ago when you weren't supposed to be naked in public on M land.  But  years later (I was running and still am a public Linden owned sim and what I believed wasn't allowed apparently was -- according to the PTB of the committee :D)  That is naked was OK as long as no activities of an OBVIOUS adult nature were going on. I still tell folks to keep their clothes on. Not a prude; just seems appropriate. 

 

So perhaps an official  trip over to update the knowledge base and wiki would be a good thing with some extra info EXAMPLES. While some folks don't care a hoot about the rules, I try my best to follow them if I have accepted them. BUT when things are so very unclear it makes it difficult. 

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5 hours ago, Lisa006 Baxton said:

In order to be part of a  'donate your tier' group and become a donor, a resident would have to be PAYING linden lab to even have tier to donate. So again, somebody, somewhere is paying Linden Lab whether its through donation or not. Let the land sit for years. Linden Lab is still getting their cut. I am sure donors are being compensated for the tier they donate or it would not be a thing. 

Yep.

What is happening is a LOT of people have a few dozen to hundreds of meters of tier left over after rounding things off. So they donate it to land baron groups for, usually, a very tiny payment in return.

If this system was broken up - if we could convince people NOT to do this, the land barons would fade away.

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On 29-4-2018 at 10:24 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

So, does this mean that if someone has a sexbed in their private home skybox at 4000m up, the land must have banlines? If so... that is a change from past years.

 

 

It wouldnt make any sense since those banlines only work up to 40 meters.

 

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9 minutes ago, Pandora Barzane said:

 

It wouldnt make any sense since those banlines only work up to 40 meters.

 

which leaves us with "no sexbeds in moderate sim skyboxes" I guess...

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Land use in Zindra puzzles me. I own land in Kama City on Zindra, where I have a motorcycle workshop and a cafe. It doesn't need to be in an adult area to comply with Linden rules; a motorcycle shop just seemed to fit there. I bought abandoned parcels, so I didn't overpay. I didn't realize at the time how much of Kama City is empty Life Properties shells.

Recently, various people have been building in Zindra. Someone put up a nice carnival, with working rides. Good rides - bumper cars, Ferris wheel, drop tower, and a track ride. Not adult. No traffic. I took a friend there once and had a good time. 

That place lasted a month. Now it's half a sim of random large objects - rocky hills, a big fountain, a swimming pool, and a Mayan temple. All low-quality builds, like someone just wanted to fill the space.

Someone else just put up a very tall building that looks like a smaller Empire State Building. It looks good from the outside. There's nothing in it; it's hollow inside. SL doesn't have large enough prim budgets to build a packed downtown city block. There's a new adult diner and convenience store owned by a French couple. They show up in world now and then. Someone put up a church recently. Bad build; looks like someone bought a low-end stock building and resized it to fit. If you go there, you get a notecard trying to sell you blood.

So there's land turnover, but not much happening.

What to do about the land baron problem? Reprice things so that buying a paid alt to get stipend to pay tier isn't a win.

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9 hours ago, animats said:

What to do about the land baron problem? Reprice things so that buying a paid alt to get stipend to pay tier isn't a win.

You pesky kids want to kill off Madlands Property Tycoon Wannabes...

It's EASY, but I promise you won't like it

 

  1. Discontinue sale of Madlands Entitlement Club Membership @ $72 a year. This gets rid of the Premium-Loop trick where people game the system by making an army of alts with membership, so the $1 a month they pay per alt for their "free" 1024's means the army of alts all chipping into a land group can own a full $175 a month Madlands region for under $60 a month. Not being able to own a regions worth of 1024's for over $110 a month less than the official price ends the Madlands Land Barons ...
  2. Abolish those arbitary "Tier Level" price bands, tier to be pro-rata on the $175 a month per region for the exact amount of land you own, no more no less. Since people only pay for what they use, and never have "left over tier allowance", this ends the Tier donation scams, that allow Land Flippers to hold onto empty parcels for months or years at well below actual tier rates. No tier donations, no Madlands Land Barons...
  3. Deregulate Madlands parcel ownership, available to purchase by anyone with the money, tier payable weekly, and in L$ at current Lindex Market Sell rates, this would enable a lot more people to pay that $175 per region pro rata price. More land in use and in use at the official price, not at some 'gamed system con-trick" price that's over $110 cheaper than it's supposed to be.
  4. Tighter regulation of Land Office Linden clan members doing nepotism deals for "personal friends", that thing where Corrupt.Linden lets a "friend" have first refusal at L$ 0.5 per sqm on a "hot parcel" rather then making it available at auction or waiting for purchase requests from regular people.

If you feel that there must be Entitlement Club Membership, for the extra groups, or enhanced event access, then it must be completely disassociated from land ownership.

THAT is how you get rid of the people who buy every parcel they can and sit on them for years at inflated prices, because they have TWO huge "game the Entitlement Club System" scams to save over $110 a month off the Tier they are supposed to be paying for a regions worth of parcels.
 

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4 hours ago, Klytyna said:

1. Discontinue sale of Madlands Entitlement Club Membership @ $72 a year. This gets rid of the Premium-Loop trick where people game the system by making an army of alts with membership.........

There is no way that Life properties manage to own most of the adult grid by sneakily buying the annual premium membership package on an army of alts. While it isn't uncommon for an individual to have a more than one premium, it's certainly not how the monopoly land owners operate. There is no way LL would allow land ownership of consequence to be gamed in this way.

4 hours ago, Klytyna said:

4. Tighter regulation of Land Office Linden clan members doing nepotism deals for "personal friends", that thing where Corrupt.Linden lets a "friend" have first refusal at L$ 0.5 per sqm on a "hot parcel" rather then making it available at auction or waiting for purchase requests from regular people.

That's a pretty huge allegation. Citation needed.

Also .. little less bold ? maybe ? please ? swap in a little capslock every now and again?

 

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52 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

There is no way LL would allow land ownership of consequence to be gamed in this way.

There are enough Madlands property tycoon wannabes doing this for it to have it's own nickname... "Premium Loop". Indeed, there's a forum regular who admits, right here on the forums, to using this trick.

1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

There is no way LL would allow land ownership of consequence to be gamed in this way.

You obviously have more faith in them than I do.

Remember these are the same people who think we all come to SL to look at digital art galleries full of experimental conceptual art, and who think pissing off the people who pay to rent 2/3rds of the Grid while subsidising people who rent less than a 1/4th of the Grid, is a "good business plan".

1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

There is no way that Life properties manage to own most of the adult grid by sneakily buying the annual premium membership package on an army of alts

Hard to say for certain which trick they use, could be Premium-Loop, or could simply be by means of the "left over tier" donation system that my second point addresses. Could be a combination of the two, you'd have to get the Lab to investigate all the accounts in the land group, who is donating "unused land allowance", etc. That's a job for Governance, if and when they pull their finger out on such tricks..

54 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

That's a pretty huge allegation. Citation needed.

There is another forum regular, who openly admitted, here on the forums,  last year, that he NEVER pays more than L$ 1 per sqm because his good friend [censored] Linden informs him of available parcels and gives him first refusal on them.

56 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Also .. little less bold ? maybe ? please ?

Some over paid, under talented, web hack decided the default for the forum should be GRAY text on a PURE WHITE background, that makes the forum bloody hard for some people to read at all. So, I use bold so *I* can read my own posts clearly. If you don't like that, not my problem.
 

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While there are some of us that use Premium alts to bring down the overall cost of our land, most of us do it for roughly 8k or less of land.  Trying to manage more alts than that gets a bit rough, especially if you are wanting to spread their renewal dates around.  

I'm not sure LL would knowingly allow hundreds of premium alt accounts just so someone could be a land baron at a cheaper cost.

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2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

While there are some of us that use Premium alts to bring down the overall cost of our land, most of us do it for roughly 8k or less of land.  Trying to manage more alts than that gets a bit rough, especially if you are wanting to spread their renewal dates around.  

I'm not sure LL would knowingly allow hundreds of premium alt accounts just so someone could be a land baron at a cheaper cost.

not sure it's still the same, ( i have less now ) but in the past you also could only use 5 accounts at one payment registration (paypal) . Would also ask for some creativity.

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On 4/29/2018 at 1:13 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

If you want to dry up land barons... find a way to convince people to stop donating tier to them.

7 hours ago, Klytyna said:

There are enough Madlands property tycoon wannabes doing this for it to have it's own nickname... "Premium Loop". Indeed, there's a forum regular who admits, right here on the forums, to using this trick.

That could change. The tier credit of a premium account should only be usable on land that you own.

That would favor owner-occupied land over leased land. Some landlords might try dividing land into 1024m parcels, each with its own paid alt. That would be very visible, and wouldn't work in areas where you can't subdivide.

Edited by animats
Cleanup

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