Linden Labs Is At Fault

[DaleMcRuden]

I think ye should all protest I have lost 2 days INCOME because Linden Labs Can't keep there servers running  so I believe that they should compensate me for the income I earn to pay them their tiers and feed my Horses  they never fail to take the cash from my account when the 3 month interval comes up I think we deserve a  stable platform and reliable log in if they are going to charge us for it

 

[Elijah Pyrithea]

You don't know what the real issue is. There might be a reason outside of Linden Lab's control that makes their servers go bananas.

Are you going to send in a complaint to the US government when it turns out the NSA is hacking Linden Lab's servers again? Or are we all going to collectively blame it on the Russians, like the western world always does when something goes wrong? 

Calm down and relax. Take some nice deep breaths. Spend some time with yourself in your own space and let your body detoxify from all the completely unimportant things that you are winding yourself up with. It's not like you or the people that matter to you have come into a life-threatening situation because of some servers that are down.

Namaste...

Edited February 27, 2018 by Elijah Pyrithea

[Solar Legion]

25 minutes ago, DaleMcRuden said:

I think ye should all protest I have lost 2 days INCOME because Linden Labs Can't keep there servers running  so I believe that they should compensate me for the income I earn to pay them their tiers and feed my Horses  they never fail to take the cash from my account when the 3 month interval comes up I think we deserve a  stable platform and reliable log in if they are going to charge us for it

 

1. It is Linden Lab - not Labs. Look it up.
2. Linden Lab in no way guarantees you an "income" of any sort. They could shut down the ability to cash out their tokens at any point or even close down their servers and you would have no recourse whatsoever. Deal with it.
3. You think this is unstable? The present performance is buttery smooth compared to what it was twelve years ago. This is nothing so calm down.

[Chase01]

Mouth, is that you!!?

 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Chase01

[Nicole Portola]

And now in the wild world of the web, we see an op who is doing the instinctive behavior known as 'whining'. This is a new development in the evolution of this generation, and an unwelcome one.  Their forefathers have en masse bought out all of the neck supports from injuries from shaking their heads. If you know a loved one suffering from insufferable neckitis , please, assure them. Do not escalate. Their gums are razor sharp.

Seriously.. even if it lasts a bit its 2 days. And they could legally shut down all money transferring out at any point anyway. Compared to the old maintenance days and the issues with flexiprims, the mirror disaster..this is nothing. 

[theequaliser]

whatever the reason the login keeps failing, either hacking, over subscription on the servers, mechanical fault etc etc, i still can't get online to do my dj set, bummer

 

[Madison Heartsong]

6 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

1. It is Linden Lab - not Labs. Look it up.
2. Linden Lab in no way guarantees you an "income" of any sort. They could shut down the ability to cash out their tokens at any point or even close down their servers and you would have no recourse whatsoever. Deal with it.
3. You think this is unstable? The present performance is buttery smooth compared to what it was twelve years ago. This is nothing so calm down.

 

I can't believe the people-- and I had a different argument some time ago with this view-- who basically are saying they'd defend LLs' rights to do it if they took a boatload of money from someone, that person, did not break the TOS, but they chose to give them absolutely nothing by shutting off access to the servers.

I'll give you this much:  I think expecting compensation for lost income is too much to ask.  I do think if someone is paying LL a large amount for the use of their servers (in tier fees or whatever sort of fee), they should get a refund for days they pay to use the servers and the servers are not reasonably available.  My fees, membership plus tier fees, are low enough that my refund would be so small I'd never make an issue of it (on principle, they should owe me 30 cents or something, but I don't really care about not getting 30 cents).  If I owned an entire private region, they would owe me something not so insignificant.  No business has the right to take money from a customer and not give them what they paid for.

From what I've read elsewhere, this is probably an attack from outside, and the liability should belong to those who are intentionally denying the service rather than LL, though LL is failing to adequately protect their servers as well so LL still is not blameless, though the main blame, by far, belongs to the intentionally malicious who are doing the attack, assuming that's what it is.

LL doesn't act unethically from all I know and doesn't intentionally deny access for no reason, but what I find inexplicable are those who would defend them if they did.  If this isn't caused from without but someone screwed up at LL, people still shouldn't be defending them.  If it is an attack from outside, which seems from what I've read most likely I understand better people defending them.

I get sucked in because I disagree strongly with "They could shut down the ability to cash out their tokens at any point or even close down their servers and you would have no recourse whatsoever."  If that is the law, the law needs to be changed.  Businesses should never get to say "I don't care what you paid, you get absolutely nothing.  Bye."  In the other argument I was in people brought up the signs "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone," which of course isn't literally true:  If someone is denied due to race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or various other reasons, that is not legally acceptable.  If it is not for those reasons, the law backs it up to a large degree; but if the business has been paid and then they decide to refuse service, I believe that even under the law they have to refund it, and if not they absolutely should.  They can say "You aren't allowed to shop/eat/whatever here" but they can't take your money, keep it, and not give you what you paid for.

It's a hypothetical argument, as LL is guilty of no worse than incompetence in this case, and again I don't think at all they ever intentionally arbitrarily deny service.  If I weren't confident that as long as I follow the rules I'll never be denied service I wouldn't be here.  They certainly aren't doing any of this on purpose, as it would be foolish for them to give intentional awful service to everyone.  But people should complain about bad service, and customers shouldn't defend poor service.  It puts pressure on the provider to improve.  Apparently it has by a great deal compared to many years ago, but people who defend them when they screw up only slow down the progress.

[Alwin Alcott]

this are mostly the most stupid posts you can imagine... you really think LL likes it to keep SL down?.... in that case i seriously doubt you know whats happening.

It's their business... not just a few louzy lindens lost in two days but hundreds of thousends real dollars

their server rent goes on

their employees go on

they miss fees in mp

they miss landsales, auctions... and so on... and have to bare this kind of responses.

 

Think twice please....

[Madison Heartsong]

15 minutes ago, Madison531 said:

8 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

you really think LL likes it to keep SL down?.... in that case i seriously doubt you know whats happening.

They certainly aren't doing any of this on purpose, as it would be foolish for them to give intentional awful service to everyone. 

 

Quoting from my post, to show I said exactly that I know they don't want to do this; they'd only lose from doing it.  I'm saying they shouldn't be defended, so as to increase the pressure to do better, and I probably wouldn't have even gone into the thread to do make that comment if not for the people saying defending their rights to refuse to behave reasonably if they chose to, even though as far as I know they are reasonable.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Madison531
Clarification

[LittleMe Jewell]

Everyone agrees to the TOS before logging in.  If you don't like the rules, don't log in.

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, Madison531 said:

I'm saying they shouldn't be defended, so as to increase the pressure to do better

there is nobody defending anything, for the ones that don't loose their mind/calmth... it CAN happen, and it does.

There's totally no reason to start claiming threathening or other things.

Breath.

[Solar Legion]

@Madison531 Stating reality is not defending Linden Lab. 

Their only obligation is to - within reason - ensure the service they offer functions.

A day or so of down time while they figure out what is going on is nothing whatsoever. 

You want to sink money in, you do so at your own risk - period 

[Phil Deakins]

1 hour ago, DaleMcRuden said:

I think ye should all protest I have lost 2 days INCOME because Linden Labs Can't keep there servers running  so I believe that they should compensate me for the income I earn to pay them their tiers and feed my Horses  they never fail to take the cash from my account when the 3 month interval comes up I think we deserve a  stable platform and reliable log in if they are going to charge us for it

Aaw

 

[Carl Thibodeaux]

Your horse won't die OP.. Everything will be okay. 

 

Might get sick, but it certainly won't pass way.

[MIstahMoose]

I cant tell if this is a really good *****post or not...

[Sabean Pagan]

A 'stable' platform to feed your horses

[Darkstone Aeon]

think dale you should take your ponies and go elsewhere -  bahbye

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

Turns out LL is not to blame.

Wow, who could have guessed?

[Tari Landar]

A company I worked for had a nasty run in with a group of uber nasty people that took us down for almost two and a half weeks, repeatedly, and seemingly without consequence (though that later was changed, I won't delve into those specifics). The damage caused by that took months to repair....months, not hours, not days, not weeks. 

Do you know what we, and *most* of our customers didn't do? This...we didn't do THIS.

Yeah it sucked having to work overtime, a lot of it, without extra pay, because of the attacks. It sucked dealing with the customers that did have this entitled attitude and attacked us "for not providing better service", and all of the claims that came with it. It sucked dealing with people who had/have no idea what they're talking about, thought they knew what was going on and what we were/were not doing better than we did. It sucked when a few of those, very loud, voices decided they would try to rally the troops, especially when those troops weren't even really our customers, just people that agreed with those that were, in effect, making things worse. Fear mongering is ridiculous, in any form, but it definitely becomes worse when the person doing it has no idea what they're talking about.  That said, what sucked even more was that our company was, very quickly, losing a hell of a lot of money and not one single person whinging at us could even think about that for a mere second. It's all about me, me, me, what I want, what I demand, what I think I'm entitled to. At least half of those whining weren't even out anything, it was merely an inconvenience for them. 

The rest of the customers, though, the ones that understood, the ones that were being calm and not acting like animals released from their cages on accident, the ones not throwing fits.....they were awesome. Even when there was little to nothing we could say to them, for various reasons, other than "we are working on a solution, please bare with us". 

***** happens people, no one likes it, no one likes to pay for services that they cannot receive when they want to receive them. No one likes to pay bills during those down times. LL is no exception. You're acting like they're actually making money off this *****, like they did it on purpose, like they're enjoying it, like it's the end of the world, lol.. Good grief people, lol.

There is a huge difference between defending LL, and understanding that ***** happens. It's not being brainwashed into believing they can do no wrong, I judge them at every single turn, much like most people do. But I'm also realistic and understand the other side of things, and that sometimes, it's really not actually their fault. 

[Lewis Luminos]

3 hours ago, DaleMcRuden said:

I think ye should all protest I have lost 2 days INCOME because Linden Labs Can't keep there servers running  so I believe that they should compensate me for the income I earn to pay them their tiers and feed my Horses  they never fail to take the cash from my account when the 3 month interval comes up I think we deserve a  stable platform and reliable log in if they are going to charge us for it

 

I think maybe you should re-read (or perhaps read for the first time) the Terms and Conditions that you claimed you agreed to when you first registered, and again every time they change it.

[kinda Fallen]

I once underwent a DDOS attack on my own incoming internet, by someone in this very game. I really did not know what was happening until I paid my internet company to come out and try and figure out what was going on. Once it was established, someone was bombarding me with huge packets and disconnecting my service, they were able to watch it happen and gleaned the IP addresses it was coming from. I was forwarded to the FBI and a very wonderful female agent took over the investigation. What she advised me to do, was to warn the individual that it was going to go for investigation, and he would easily be found out through Linden Lab as to who he was and where he lived. I was lucky, this ass ran around bragging about it, so he really outed himself. I would let everyone know, if the person found to be doing these attacks are in the US, it is a FEDERAL OFFENSE. This individual stopped his attacks with a warning from me I would turn him over, he knew very well what that meant. It is nasty and I do completely understand what LL is going through right now just to get things back on line until the next attack.  So please give them some grace, and stop complaining, they are doing the very best they can, in a world that is constantly getting a bit less nice every day.

Edited February 27, 2018 by kinda Fallen

[Callum Meriman]

3 hours ago, Madison531 said:

I get sucked in because I disagree strongly with "They could shut down the ability to cash out their tokens at any point or even close down their servers and you would have no recourse whatsoever."  If that is the law, the law needs to be changed.  Businesses should never get to say "I don't care what you paid, you get absolutely nothing.  Bye." 

I think most of us agree, without a shadow of a doubt that the Lab hold a one sided advantage here, that the Lab have us over a barrel with their TOS. But most of us are not from the USA - so, our hands are tied. We - the citizens of the world, simply can't change USA laws.

We always trust that the citizens of that country will make intelligent choices at the polling booths when voting for their leaders.

One day it might happen.

[sirhc DeSantis]

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions

Section 3

[Tari Landar]

2 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

I think most of us agree, without a shadow of a doubt that the Lab hold a one sided advantage here, that the Lab have us over a barrel with their TOS. But most of us are not from the USA - so, our hands are tied. We - the citizens of the world, simply can't change USA laws.

We always trust that the citizens of that country will make intelligent choices at the polling booths when voting for their leaders.

One day it might happen.

Except no one's hands are actually tied, nor is anyone being held over a barrel. If people fail the read the TOS, that's on them. If they read them and continue on, again, on them. If they read them and don't agree with them, they can choose to not participate, but if they do so, again, on them.  When certain aspects of the TOS were changed, which some folks didn't agree with, some folks left sl. This is a reasonable response to no longer agreeing to a set of terms. Ranting on like loons, or acting like the TOS shouldn't apply, after the fact, is not a reasonable response. 

No one forces any of us to utilize sl, in any fashion. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

I think most of us agree, without a shadow of a doubt that the Lab hold a one sided advantage here, that the Lab have us over a barrel with their TOS. But most of us are not from the USA - so, our hands are tied. We - the citizens of the world, simply can't change USA laws.

We always trust that the citizens of that country will make intelligent choices at the polling booths when voting for their leaders.

One day it might happen.

Sorry, Callum.  I'm not really laughing at you, just at the concept that us Americans, as a whole, will ever have better political leaders.  The problem is that in the US, holding a political office is very powerful and power corrupts.  Those that SHOULD be in office do not want it.  Those that WANT it, should not be there.  Thus we are screwed - at least until/unless another revolution happens.

*sigh*

Edited February 27, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell