Your Biggest SL Disappointment

[Pussycat Catnap]

2 hours ago, cykarushb said:

Well think of the kind of people who like to spend a lot of time in a virtual social world, its mainly bored white women and teenagers.

That's a bit of s gross generalization.

But also remember the question here "what is your biggest disappointment". Not rationalizing the situation... but 'how do you feel about it'. And as much as I love SL, this is my biggest issue with it: that it is so mon-ethnic and that so few people seem to be freaked out about that. I freak out anytime I find myself in an environment that lacking in diversity - regardless of who is the empowered or represented majority therein. IMO, people SHOULD be freaked out in 2017 when a place is, or even appears to be, exclusive to a narrow demographic. Regardless of why or who.

 

 

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Are you referring to the race of users or the race of avatars?

If the former, how do you know what race the users are?

That's also basic whitesplaining away my experience there.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Whitesplain

There's a heck of a lot more to this than just a whole lot of white avatars. "Caucasian" is as "ethnic" as any other group. We could all come in here in green avatars but have the vast number of cultural references bet drawn from Sri Lanka's Sinhala people, and by your logic it would not "Sinhalese" because the avatars are green.

But in this case, both are the situation. This place is more "ethnic" than anything I have ever encountered other than perhaps when I was living in Korea and had awkward friendships with people that were part of a "Korean Purity" group - we'd all be nice one moment and in the next I'd be getting a lecture about how my bone structure was proof I was not fully 'human'... I'd tell them "do you people even hear yourselves" but it was pointless because they lacked any other point of reference outside of their own circle.

It's here in both the avatars and the 'Ethnocentric' nature of the place. If it was just the avatars... it would only be jarring in the way 'Anime' tends to be: cartoons of one (or more) ethnicities predominately framed in the culture of Japan.
 

but what do I know... I'm just a colored. I can't possibly understand my own experience of something until a white person explains it to me.

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Pussycat Catnap

[Asher Isodo]

One of the things I've been really disappointed in since I've switched to a mesh body from the old one, is the lack of men's clothing in general.  Oh now's there's thousands of pages of clothing, but there is no Blueberry per se for men's clothing.  I'm just using them as an example, but there are many women's clothing designers that make great clothing for women.  For men's clothing it is extremely hit or miss with most designers.  Now this is just my opinion so I'm sure there will be many that disagree, but there is not huge clothing designer's for me who make high quality clothing that looks and fits great, even if it's not your style.

The other issue I have with men's clothing since the change to mesh bodies...where are the suits and formal wear for men made for specific bodies?  Again I'm sure someone will disagree and if they point me in the right direction, great, but I for one am very picky about my suits.  I want them looking tailor made for me, so it would be great to have a suit that is well made for my specific body.  All the suits I can ever find are the standard 5 sizes, which always makes me feel like I'm wearing someone else's hand-me-down.  It just never seems to look as if it fits right.  I really wish I could make clothing because I'd give it shot at making what is missing in men's fashion...well made tailored looking suits for specific mesh bodies and other formal wear.  I need to suit up!

 

[cykarushb]

42 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

 that it is so mon-ethnic and that so few people seem to be freaked out about that.

Well, that sounds like you're creating an issue for yourself. I dont hear about people freaking out because theres so many ethnically white users. Why is the race of a user important at all? Its secondlife, next to none of us are representative of who we are in the real world. A persons real world background doesnt matter here. Beleive it or not, but im not actually an anthropomorphic red panda in the real world. Im a 20 going on 21 year old mexican.
People arent freaking out about it because it isnt a thing to be concerned about. I dont care what someones race is, i dont care who they are IRL, i care about how they act and interact with other people in SL.

I know a 40 year old dude who pretends to be the glitziest, most extravagantly overdressed neon lightshow furry sparkledog there is, i know a 16 year old girl who's avatar is representative of the average dude in his 20's, i know an average dude in his 20's who's avatar is a 16 year old girl.

Secondlife isnt like the real world. If you're finding yourself concerned about the type of people around you, find other people to be around. Theres a huge amount of people out there and theyre all different. If you're concerned by being a minority in a place of a majority, well thats not a problem in SL, nobody is gonna exclude you. You're creating that concern for yourself.

SL isnt exclusive to any demographic. Its the demographic that likes SL.

[Theresa Tennyson]

9 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That's a bit of s gross generalization.

But also remember the question here "what is your biggest disappointment". Not rationalizing the situation... but 'how do you feel about it'. And as much as I love SL, this is my biggest issue with it: that it is so mon-ethnic and that so few people seem to be freaked out about that. I freak out anytime I find myself in an environment that lacking in diversity - regardless of who is the empowered or represented majority therein. IMO, people SHOULD be freaked out in 2017 when a place is, or even appears to be, exclusive to a narrow demographic. Regardless of why or who.

 

 

That's also basic whitesplaining away my experience there.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Whitesplain

There's a heck of a lot more to this than just a whole lot of white avatars. "Caucasian" is as "ethnic" as any other group. We could all come in here in green avatars but have the vast number of cultural references bet drawn from Sri Lanka's Sinhala people, and by your logic it would not "Sinhalese" because the avatars are green.

But in this case, both are the situation. This place is more "ethnic" than anything I have ever encountered other than perhaps when I was living in Korea and had awkward friendships with people that were part of a "Korean Purity" group - we'd all be nice one moment and in the next I'd be getting a lecture about how my bone structure was proof I was not fully 'human'... I'd tell them "do you people even hear yourselves" but it was pointless because they lacked any other point of reference outside of their own circle.

It's here in both the avatars and the 'Ethnocentric' nature of the place. If it was just the avatars... it would only be jarring in the way 'Anime' tends to be: cartoons of one (or more) ethnicities predominately framed in the culture of Japan.
 

but what do I know... I'm just a colored. I can't possibly understand my own experience of something until a white person explains it to me.

 

Are Japanese people white?

How about Brazilians? (Talk about a group that you can't make ethnic generalizations about...)

Plenty of both in SL. One of the best airplane makers in SL is Brazilian, and personally I spend a lot of time in places made by Japanese people.

 

Maybe you just don't get around much...

[Ina Fairport]

Two things...

First the Transgender scene that has become a sex related roleplay community without any style and class

Second the ever lasting problems with vehicles and simcrossings.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

On 11/1/2017 at 10:08 AM, Maryanne Solo said:

I can tolerate most of what SL throws my way, except timed clothing demos.

I mean... really  

Remembering a nice outfit, clicking....then.. "this demo has expired - you'll have to get another"

*noise of Trashcan lid clattering closed... Billy Idol sneer.... footsteps growing fainter..... 

They are so annoying. I realise they're an attempt to protect IP and all that, but what about those of us who like to try on a few things first, or prioritize business things and conversations with friends over shopping? I know I'm at the far end of the scale and will merrily go about my SL for days while wearing demos, but even when I'm trying to be efficient time-wise they're far too short-lived.

I don't get any pleasure from impulse shopping or feeling pressured. Let me do it my own slow way and you might lose a sale on that particular item if I'm not so keen on it once the Oooh Shiny wears off, but you're more likely to lose me as a customer forever if I regret buying it. Let me wear the demo till I decide I love it and I'll keep coming back to see what else you've made.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

11 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That's a bit of s gross generalization.

But also remember the question here "what is your biggest disappointment". Not rationalizing the situation... but 'how do you feel about it'. And as much as I love SL, this is my biggest issue with it: that it is so mon-ethnic and that so few people seem to be freaked out about that. I freak out anytime I find myself in an environment that lacking in diversity - regardless of who is the empowered or represented majority therein. IMO, people SHOULD be freaked out in 2017 when a place is, or even appears to be, exclusive to a narrow demographic. Regardless of why or who.

Fifteen years ago I moved from somewhere vibrantly ethnically and culturally diverse to somewhere with much less. It felt weird for a very long time, like something wasn't quite right, because it didn't look like what I was used to seeing. I'm accustomed to it now and while it's something I would like to change it's on a scale I can't do much to influence other than being aware of where I shop and generally being kind.

My SL is less ethnically diverse than it used to be too. I don't know how much of that is changes amongst residents and how much is not exploring as much as I used to. A fair chunk of the new people I meet and make friends with are through my shop and that tends to attract a different sort of diversity - gay men, art collectors, Roman history enthusiasts and re-enactors, Italians and the generally open-minded and curious. I rank well for Roman art and little else, so that's the interest which draws people towards my shop.

The last time I looked for them, it did seem there were significantly fewer Buddhist and Indian places, but then there are fewer Roman ones too. It feels to me like there is less diversity over all and more of a consolidation of focus around certain types of fashion trends.

What can I do to promote greater diversity within SL? I would like to see more of it because it benefits all of us.

I don't have enough energy to be freaked out by it in SL right now, but I do genuinely care. My closest friends all do as well, and while that's obviously a self-selecting group, I think there may be more geniune care than is apparent, just people at a loss for how to bring about real change for the better.

[Phil Deakins]

At one time, I ran the local chess league, and numbers were on the decline. There was always talk about encouraging more people to play - to stop the decline and build the league up again. My attitude always was to present the option of playing to people so that those who want to play can play, and those who don't want to play don't play. I never saw any reason at all for any sort of persuasion.

I see the same here concerning this 'ethnic' discussion. I see no reason to seek to engineer any sort of ethnic mix - anywhere, not just in SL. All that's needed is to put it in front of people's eyes and those who want to come will come, and vice versa. Ethnicity is irrelevant. A person is a person, regardless of their roots. Their roots are irrelevant.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Pussycat Catnap]

21 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Are Japanese people white?

How about Brazilians? (Talk about a group that you can't make ethnic generalizations about...)

Plenty of both in SL. One of the best airplane makers in SL is Brazilian, and personally I spend a lot of time in places made by Japanese people.

 

Maybe you just don't get around much...

 

It is amazing how much it bothered YOU that I have found SL to be racially exclusive. YOU are unable to handle being challenged on your privilege.

Some handy reading:

https://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race

https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/

I am fully aware there are some people who like me are not white. That does not in any way invalidate what I said. Sitting here listing out all the colored people you know or know of, like tokens you're lining up to prove you're not bad... really really really does not help you.

You should really try and consider that not everytime a person of color speaks about their frustrations is it an attack on you. You had absolutely NO REASON to launch yourself into the middle of my frustrations with what has bothered ME about SL.

So not everytime is is an attack on you, but this time... right now... it is... but not every time, nor did it start as one this time until you placed yourself into the target spot with false victimization.

[Pussycat Catnap]

18 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

My SL is less ethnically diverse than it used to be too.

What can I do to promote greater diversity within SL? I would like to see more of it because it benefits all of us.

Mine is actually more diverse than it used to be.

I started in here saying this was my greatest frustration with SL, and it is... but that isn't an apocalyptic statement as some took it for. I wish SL was a lot more diverse than it is... but I have slowly met people from other varied backgrounds. However it is still a LOT LESS diverse than my real life.

 

 

I really couldn't offer up a solution. It had to have begin with LLs, and years ago. When you sit at that new account screen and see the starting avatars, I think that's the initial bad moment - the initial red flag. If I hadn't had a reason to log in here when I first did... I wouldn't have.

This is a major issue throughout tech actually - I live in perhaps the most diverse place in the world, but in my actual profession within that place is one of the least diverse industries in the USA... and it is not for lack of people like me, but for the refusal of tech companies to engage with us. I have enough hustle to have worked my way in regardless - but it leaves me in 'fight mode' most of the time.

I've lived in Korea, and early in my career in tech a company tried to 'force relocate' me to Vermont (I mentioned a short trip above)... so I've been to places with a dramatically lower level of diversity than I am used to. One where the baseline was Korean, the other where it was French-American. Both made me realize I am not suited for such places.

[Pussycat Catnap]

20 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

They are so annoying. I realise they're an attempt to protect IP and all that, but what about those of us who like to try on a few things first, or prioritize business things and conversations with friends over shopping?

Yeah. I like to cycle through demos several times. Sort of a "here are 3 things I thought I wanted... let's compare them all... oh wait, need to look at that first one again to be sure... what, it's expired? well, I guess here are 2 things I thought I wanted..."

I think my inventory is actually almost half demos. Not that I wear them often... but I will make folders full of demos that are "look these over again later" or "these are the ones I want to buy"... and then when 'purchase day' comes, I will go through them all again quickly to remind myself... and if one of them isn't working, it just fell off the list.

[Zeta Vandyke]

Closing down of beautiful sims always felt really sad. Like Suffugium or Nexus Prime. Never been into RP but I loved discovering places like that and showing them to friends. Wandering around and making pictures. 

Also agree on the timezone. Most people I meet are from the US, im Dutch. So our overlapping time to hang out is quite small.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Zeta Vandyke

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

 

It is amazing how much it bothered YOU that I have found SL to be racially exclusive. YOU are unable to handle being challenged on your privilege.

Some handy reading:

https://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race

https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/

I am fully aware there are some people who like me are not white. That does not in any way invalidate what I said. Sitting here listing out all the colored people you know or know of, like tokens you're lining up to prove you're not bad... really really really does not help you.

You should really try and consider that not everytime a person of color speaks about their frustrations is it an attack on you. You had absolutely NO REASON to launch yourself into the middle of my frustrations with what has bothered ME about SL.

So not everytime is is an attack on you, but this time... right now... it is... but not every time, nor did it start as one this time until you placed yourself into the target spot with false victimization.

I asked you some questions to try to get you to clarify your statements.

What about those questions made you think I was angry?

Why did you think I was attacking you?

And what about what I've written led you to make assumptions about my ethnicity?

What I'm doing is probing your statements for logical and factual errors. It's exactly the same thing I do with another user of these forums who is convinced that the American South was legally justified in seceding from the Union.

Here is your original statement in this thread:

The lack of diversity, and the company's unwillingness to do anything to encourage a wider userbase. SL is the most mono-ethnic place I have ever encountered outside of a short trip to Vermont a few decades ago. SL may even be more 'ethnic white' than Vermont (which was over 90% Caucasian) was when I went there.

It is jarring to be in a space so lacking in perspectives. And to actually see how little they notice this is disheartening. In my RL the whites I encounter and even enjoy as friends seem to thrive with and enjoy global variety - but SL implies they would not even notice if the rest of us were erased. That is both disheartening and scary.

Note that it was primarily a statement of fact, instead of an opinion. If you'd said something like "My greatest disappointment in Second Life is that it seems to be very-non diverse and I wish there were more people with different cultural and ethnic backgrounds," that would be an opinion and I wouldn't have reacted to it at all. As a statement of fact, however, it is testable.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Theresa Tennyson

[Tears Serf]

My biggest SL disappointments since  2006 : would be to see sl slow death. not much of mainland remians. Most places are gone or empty (still hate timezone´s) . and that nowdays sl are buy buy buy, not much left of what it where when Linden walket among us.  Forgot one thing, I got kicked out from a sim because, as  the store owner said, I haden´t bought enough . 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Tears Serf

[Phil Deakins]

29 minutes ago, Tears Serf said:

Forgot one thing, I got kicked out from a sim because, as  the store owner said, I haden´t bought enough . 

You're joking, right?

[Cindy Evanier]

35 minutes ago, Tears Serf said:

I got kicked out from a sim because, as  the store owner said, I haden´t bought enough

wow and I thought it was bad getting kicked for asking the creator in a store if he did an  unfurnished or mod version of a house

[Janet Voxel]

My biggest disappointment is how antisocial and uncreative SL has become.

The days where people would just hangout and talk in world are gone. Meeting new people was much easier and fun. Now if someone you don’t know IMs you, it’s a pleasant surprise when it’s NOT something weird. You can’t even depend on the destination guide because people game them so hard, “popular” spots are empty. You even see profiles now that say “I don’t pay attention to local.” Wow!

 

Mesh took out a lot of creative people. I’m all for mesh, love it. A lot of people didn’t adopt the change and either are still crying about it or just left completely. I’m not bashing mesh, but LL really should have done a better job of explaining or demonstrating that it not that different for building than working with prims and what the benefits are. As a result, SL is a little more cookie cutter in all aspects.

LL let some of the social and creative aspects of SL slip away.

[Cindy Evanier]

The new exciting premium feature of 90 days transaction history

[LittleMe Jewell]

13 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

The new exciting premium feature of 90 days transaction history

This ^^^    How LL seems to be out of touch with what users might consider to be a "Premium-worthy" benefit.  It might not be my biggest disappointment, but it is most definitely the latest.

[Dillon Levenque]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 2:48 AM, Ina Fairport said:

Transgender scene that has become a sex related roleplay community without any style and class
 

I beg your pardon?

 

[Dillon Levenque]

I couldn't resist. :-)

Actually, I do get your point although I don't think that's anything new; I started in 2008 and there were a large number of transgender-themed places, almost all of which had if not a sexual purpose for existing, a far higher amount of sexual activity (arrangements, assignations, etc.) than SL in general. Which is pretty high to begin with.

I think one reason so many of us went there at first (try not to laugh, people. I know what you're thinking!) was a comfort factor. We'd be in one of 'our' places. A lot of us came to realize that most in SL are far less concerned with what people look like and/or do than are people in real life. And conversely, much more interested in what they are like. Who they are. I found that out early (this forum helped but I'd been out and about for a year inworld by then).

You gotta admit I got style, though. ;-)

ETA: Perhaps that real world attitude is changing, more quickly in some places than others. Last night in the US state of Virginia a transgender woman defeated a 13-term incumbent who referred to himself as the state's "chief homophobe" (not kidding) for a seat in the state's assembly (House of Delegates).

Edited November 8, 2017 by Dillon Levenque

[Penny Patton]

 Linden Lab's inability to understand Second Life. It's strengths, it's weakness and it's appeal. They've always been their own worst enemy when it comes to promoting SL and growing its userbase.

 SL's public spaces, those created and maintained by LL including the new user orientation sims, are poorly designed for drawing new users in and engaging them. SL's defaults, from sky settings designed to resemble pre-windlight SL to the camera placement which was decided upon in the 90's when LL expected to relate to their avatars and the SL world as one might play The Sims, are all designed to placate longtime SL users adverse to change, rather than drawing in new users who will be looking for better visuals and a more immersive experience.

LL has never been good at encouraging good content creation habits, instead letting unoptimized content run rampant, killing our framerates and forcing us to run SL at much lower graphics settings we should be capable of. Their starter avatars being over 7'/214cm tall and broken appearance editor encouraging encouraging people to supersize content so land area is effectively cut down to a fraction of the space we actually have. The lack of interactivity and engagement features resulting in sims essentially being 3D dioramas you can't really interact with very much. The incomplete and poorly developed social and search functionality which makes it so difficult to find anything interesting.

 LL wants to be purely a host, providing the sandbox but otherwise being as hands-off as possible. And I totally get that. But they need to put some effort into the content and presentation side of things, if only to do better at drawing in new users and to give themselves the perspective they need if they want to understand how to properly develop the tools that the rest of us use to create the bulk of SL's content.

[Phoebe Avro]

30 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

 Linden Lab's inability to understand Second Life. It's strengths, it's weakness and it's appeal. They've always been their own worst enemy when it comes to promoting SL and growing its userbase.

 SL's public spaces, those created and maintained by LL including the new user orientation sims, are poorly designed for drawing new users in and engaging them. SL's defaults, from sky settings designed to resemble pre-windlight SL to the camera placement which was decided upon in the 90's when LL expected to relate to their avatars and the SL world as one might play The Sims, are all designed to placate longtime SL users adverse to change, rather than drawing in new users who will be looking for better visuals and a more immersive experience.

LL has never been good at encouraging good content creation habits, instead letting unoptimized content run rampant, killing our framerates and forcing us to run SL at much lower graphics settings we should be capable of. Their starter avatars being over 7'/214cm tall and broken appearance editor encouraging encouraging people to supersize content so land area is effectively cut down to a fraction of the space we actually have. The lack of interactivity and engagement features resulting in sims essentially being 3D dioramas you can't really interact with very much. The incomplete and poorly developed social and search functionality which makes it so difficult to find anything interesting.

 LL wants to be purely a host, providing the sandbox but otherwise being as hands-off as possible. And I totally get that. But they need to put some effort into the content and presentation side of things, if only to do better at drawing in new users and to give themselves the perspective they need if they want to understand how to properly develop the tools that the rest of us use to create the bulk of SL's content.

I get what your saying Penny about user content and I have seen you say it many times before, but you have two types of conternt 'pro' and 'amature' and what made sl great was amature builders, I can put up with low frame rates and lag because I like SL, Most of the lag comes from poor quality mesh avs with many 1024 textures in my opinion, I built my club using many of the same textures but in clever ways to reduce lag . I don't think there is a win win solution, Sansar will be build using more pro content but I feel it may well fail because of that.

[Penny Patton]

10 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Why did you think I was attacking you?

And what about what I've written led you to make assumptions about my ethnicity?

Maybe it's not my place to step in, but as an outside perspective, Pussycat answered the OP's question with a disappointment she has experienced personally.

When you replied to her, you did so by questioning the validity of her own experiences and pointing out that there are Japanese and Brazilian people in SL. In your follow up post after her first reply to you, you then reframed it as an attempt at objectivity, but it is still calling into question her personal experiences in SL. I'd think most people would have the same reaction to being told their personal experiences are wrong and that you know better about their own experiences than they do.

Maybe it would have been better to simply say that your own experiences have been different? But, at the same time, Pussycat wasn't saying there is no diversity in SL at all, she wasn't saying that she is the one, lone, non-white person in SL. Only that, on the whole, SL is predominantly white.

I don't believe she's wrong about that, either. Or, if she is, the lines are also split along lines of nationality, such as with most Japanese people in SL sticking to Japanese sims, which seems to be the case.

[Penny Patton]

7 minutes ago, Phoebe Avro said:

I get what your saying Penny about user content and I have seen you say it many times before, but you have two types of conternt 'pro' and 'amature' and what made sl great was amature builders, I can put up with low frame rates and lag because I like SL, Most of the lag comes from poor quality mesh avs with many 1024 textures in my opinion, I built my club using many of the same textures but in clever ways to reduce lag . I don't think there is a win win solution, Sansar will be build using more pro content but I feel it may well fail because of that.

 This is not an either-or situation. You do not have to put up with low frame rates because SL appeals to amateur content creators. You put up with low frame rates because the tools provided to those amateur content creators are poorly made.

 Everything I've ever suggested LL do to improve Second Life would only make things easier for amateur content creators, and bring more of them into SL. The problems I have with SL are also among the problems that drive those content creators away.