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Your Biggest SL Disappointment

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5 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

 This is not an either-or situation. You do not have to put up with low frame rates because SL appeals to amateur content creators. You put up with low frame rates because the tools provided to those amateur content creators are poorly made.

 Everything I've ever suggested LL do to improve Second Life would only make things easier for amateur content creators, and bring more of them into SL. The problems I have with SL are also among the problems that drive those content creators away.

Hi Penny, what tools would you suggest? In word mesh creation tools that can not make unoptimised content? that would go a big way to help things I think. I am surprised LL have not made a tool or even an offline content creation tool that does just that. Its something I was thinking about years ago if I ever managed to get the finances to start a 3d world / grid myself.

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1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

Maybe it's not my place to step in, but as an outside perspective, Pussycat answered the OP's question with a disappointment she has experienced personally.

When you replied to her, you did so by questioning the validity of her own experiences and pointing out that there are Japanese and Brazilian people in SL. In your follow up post after her first reply to you, you then reframed it as an attempt at objectivity, but it is still calling into question her personal experiences in SL. I'd think most people would have the same reaction to being told their personal experiences are wrong and that you know better about their own experiences than they do.

Maybe it would have been better to simply say that your own experiences have been different? But, at the same time, Pussycat wasn't saying there is no diversity in SL at all, she wasn't saying that she is the one, lone, non-white person in SL. Only that, on the whole, SL is predominantly white.

 

 

The only way Pussycat's math could possibly work is if all Caucasians are considered to be ethnically interchangeable. She said as much in her reply. Does that sound accurate to you? Are all members of the various other "races" equally interchangeable amongst themselves? When people argue that they're rightly criticized because they aren't.

I once worked with a gentleman who was originally from Yugoslavia. I should correct myself here though, because he very specifically said that he was from Serbia. It was interesting working with someone from the region that literally gave its name to ethnic animosity. He referred to almost everyone by their ethnicity. One of our clients was known simply as "the Albanians." (He couldn't work for them by mutual agreement.) A Reuben was a "Jewish sandwich." When there was a bus hijacking by a Croatian his immediate response was, "A Croatian wouldn't use a knife," because he "knew" exactly how a Croatian would act, because they were Croatian. I'm not saying that all Serbs are like that or else I'd be guilty of the same generalizations he was, but it certainly made world events more understandable.

There's a lot more to diversity than skin color. In a lot of ways Second Life is very diverse; probably more than any one country in the "real world." It is quite homogeneous in social class, but not in ethnicity.

 

 

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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Gracie, type a memo please:

To:    Forum Readers

Re:    Your Biggest SL Disappointment

Bcc:  Linden Labs

  • My real life job cutting into fun SL time
  • Not knowing how to properly create a mesh avatar after having a classic avatar all these years (got a Bento body but stopped accessorizing it after seeing how hot i look)
  • Mean people you encounter once-in-awhile  (My block list is now up to 7!)
  • Being able to communicate with people from other nationalities.  Mostly people from UK and Australia:D
  • More Free Lindens!
  • The lag at Frank's Plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!

Sincerely,

 

Jameson

 

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I could write a book on what I'd suggest, but to name a few:

Memory useage should be as simple to understand as Land Impact.

SL discourages excessively high-poly models through Land Impact cost (often still referred to as the number of "prims" an object uses), but this cost does not take memory into account at all. It really should. It should have since the beginning, since it hasn't I would, if I were LL, tie it to newer features like animesh and parcel windlight controls. Want to make an object animesh? Ok, but it will start including VRAM in determining it's LI cost. Want to use parcel windlight? Ok, but all the objects on your parcel will start using the new LI calculations as long as they're on that land and parcel windlight settings are in effect. These are just examples of ways it could potentially be introduced.

Avatars use memory, too. So, likewise, I would have resource caps applied to avatars, tied to new features. Want to wear an animesh object? Ok, but you need to keep your VRAM under this amount.

By tying caps like this to new features, old content is unaffected, so you can continue to enjoy legacy content until you upgrade to use the new features. And, lately it seems, SL is getting new features pretty regularly so this is a feasible way to handle it.

 And as with any cap SL imposes on you, you should be able to easily see and manage it. The SL marketplace should be updated to replace "prims" with "Land Impact" so people don't get confused on what that means. And VRAM should be displayed as well.

Windlight should be easily applied to environments.

When you walk inside a building in a videogame, the game changes the sky settings to reflect the interior environment. This is why outdoor sky effects don't go straight through the walls of a house in Skyrim or Princess Peach's castle in Mario. SL doesn't allow us to change windlight settings like that. Even if it's tied to an Experience, SL should allow the environment to affect your sky settings. Walk into a completely enclosed bunker and you get a dark, murkey windlight. Walk back outside and your windlight reverts to the parcel default. Go inside the house and get house interior windlight settings. This could be taken further, maybe drink a love potion and the windlight changes to be bright and pink.

 We should have some sort of in-world mesh creator.

It doesn't have to be as complicated and feature rich as Blender and 3D Studio, but it should allow those who've never picked up a 3D program to begin creating content that is at least viable in SL. SL's in-world content creation tools haven't changed in longer than I can recall, forcing content creators to download full blown 3D modelling software to even get started. LL should look towards what Sony did with their cancelled EverQuest Next game, which was to include in-world content creation tools aimed squarely at regular users.

 The system avatars should be upgraded/replaced.

 We all use mesh avatars now because we want better looking models and the ability to use materials, but mesh bodies are not nearly as easy to pick up and use as system avatars were. LL should want new users to be able to log in and create an appealing avatar using nothing more than the sliders, but as SL has moved on to adopt newer features, the system avatars have been left behind. And, in forcing the market towards mesh bodies, the clothing market has been fractured. Now, if you want to make mesh clothing for SL you have to pick and choose what bodies you will support, meaning that, without an unreasonable amount of work, you'll never be able to reach out to the entire SL marketplace.

So, give us new system avatars. Bring back system skins by making the skin assets (base skin texture, freckles, makeup textures, etc) themselves replaceable while still working with the sliders. Improve the appearance editor with new skeleton weighting so we can more easily create better proportioned avatars and a wider variety of body types. Introduce new shapes split between head, torso and legs so people can try different head shapes without replacing their body, or different body shapes without replacing their face. 

 

That's just a few ideas.

Edited by Penny Patton
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41 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

The only way Pussycat's math could possibly work is if all Caucasians are considered to be ethnically interchangeable. She said as much in her reply. Does that sound accurate to you? Are all members of the various other "races" equally interchangeable amongst themselves? When people argue that they're rightly criticized because they aren't.

I once worked with a gentleman who was originally from Yugoslavia. I should correct myself here though, because he very specifically said that he was from Serbia. It was interesting working with someone from the region that literally gave its name to ethnic animosity. He referred to almost everyone by their ethnicity. One of our clients was known simply as "the Albanians." (He couldn't work for them by mutual agreement.) A Reuben was a "Jewish sandwich." When there was a bus hijacking by a Croatian his immediate response was, "A Croatian wouldn't use a knife," because he "knew" exactly how a Croatian would act, because they were Croatian. I'm not saying that all Serbs are like that or else I'd be guilty of the same generalizations he was, but it certainly made world events more understandable.

There's a lot more to diversity than skin color. In a lot of ways Second Life is very diverse; probably more than any one country in the "real world." It is quite homogeneous in social class, but not in ethnicity.

 

 

It seems to me that you're moving goal posts and misrepresenting Pussycat's argument. Yes, in some respects SL is very diverse, but in other ways it is not and I just feel that it is very clear what Pussycat was referring to. Regarding LL's attempts to diversify their userbase, well, when you look at SL's marketing about the closest I could compare it to is a 1980's LL Bean catalog.

 I don't think this is intentional, and I don't believe Pussycat is suggesting it's intentional, either. I think it ties in directly with my complain that LL just does not understand the appeal of their own product and is very clumsy at marketing it.

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45 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

It seems to me that you're moving goal posts and misrepresenting Pussycat's argument. Yes, in some respects SL is very diverse, but in other ways it is not and I just feel that it is very clear what Pussycat was referring to. Regarding LL's attempts to diversify their userbase, well, when you look at SL's marketing about the closest I could compare it to is a 1980's LL Bean catalog.

 I don't think this is intentional, and I don't believe Pussycat is suggesting it's intentional, either. I think it ties in directly with my complain that LL just does not understand the appeal of their own product and is very clumsy at marketing it.

Then let's go to the tape again and see...

On 11/6/2017 at 2:32 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

The lack of diversity, and the company's unwillingness to do anything to encourage a wider userbase. SL is the most mono-ethnic place I have ever encountered outside of a short trip to Vermont a few decades ago. SL may even be more 'ethnic white' than Vermont (which was over 90% Caucasian) was when I went there.

It is jarring to be in a space so lacking in perspectives. And to actually see how little they notice this is disheartening. In my RL the whites I encounter and even enjoy as friends seem to thrive with and enjoy global variety - but SL implies they would not even notice if the rest of us were erased. That is both disheartening and scary.

 

Meanwhile, you both seem to forget that Linden Lab set up arrangements with Brazilian and Korean game companies to build portals to Second Life.

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2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then let's go to the tape again and see...

Meanwhile, you both seem to forget that Linden Lab set up arrangements with Brazilian and Korean game companies to build portals to Second Life.

 I'm sorry, but I just don't see the relevance here or the point you're trying to make with the highlighted text. Are you confusing unwillingness to do one thing, with intent for the outcome? LL has been unwilling to hire graphics professionals who can help them to better develop SL's content creation tools and put together a more engaging experience, but that doesn't mean their intent is to sabotage their own business. It's definitely the result, but it's just as certainly not what they were intending to do.

Are you saying that describing someone as "white" in the quoted context is the same as only seeing someone by the colour of their skin as the co-worker in your previous analogy was prone to describe everyone they see by their nationality/ethnicity? That acknowledging differences is the same as being racist? I think you're projecting your experiences with that co-worker onto Pussycat and the shoe doesn't really fit.

As for LL's arrangements with Brazilian and Korean game companies, I see what you're trying to say, but trying to create a market in another nation is not the same as trying to diversify your userbase within a single market. LL's domestic marketing isn't even just narrow in a racial sense, but in a demographics sense as well. It's always had that safe LL Bean "you can go shopping, wear winter coats and walk in the woods, go jetskiing" vibe to it that leaves me wondering exactly who they're trying to reach when I think SL should be appealing to lots of different kinds of people LL should be trying to reach with different kinds of marketing. There's no need for them to stick to a single type of marketing and hope it works for everyone.

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17 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

 

Are you saying that describing someone as "white" in the quoted context is the same as only seeing someone by the colour of their skin as the co-worker in your previous analogy was prone to describe everyone they see by their nationality/ethnicity? That acknowledging differences is the same as being racist? I think you're projecting your experiences with that co-worker onto Pussycat and the shoe doesn't really fit.

 

Not quite. I'd say that seeing differences between but not among is racist.

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Penny Patton said:
The system avatars should be upgraded/replaced.
We all use mesh avatars now....
No we don't all use mesh avatars now, although I have three of them I seldom use them, they are to completed.  I still use my classic avatar 90% of the time, at least!

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

I don't know if its my biggest disappointment, but it is a one of them.  Most of what I do in SL is go to live entertainment, I tried to go see a singer that I like and I could not get on the sim to see her show.  No its not full, its a gaming sim and I live in a state that can not access them.  It would be nice if I just could not play the games, I never did any how so no loss, but I can't even get on the sim to see entertainment.

And I found my self looking in search and seeing her name and thinking, I can't go see her, I can't get in the sim, then I realized that I have been to that sim many times and its not a gaming sim.  So how many times have I thought, I can't go see that singer when I really could of, yes I know I should pay more attention, but I don't.  It would be nice if I could just not be allowed to play the stupid games rather than not even be allow on the sim.

It has not been a problem lately because I have scaled back considerably on my SL, I guess its all the little thing adding up.

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17 minutes ago, Teagan Tobias said:

Penny Patton said:
The system avatars should be upgraded/replaced.
We all use mesh avatars now....
No we don't all use mesh avatars now, although I have three of them I seldom use them, they are to completed.  I still use my classic avatar 90% of the time, at least!

True but let's not get pedantic. We don't all use mesh avatars but more and more people do and LL has let the system avatars fall further and further by the wayside, even attempting to push mesh avatars for the starters until they realized the obvious problems created in doing so.

I hope we can agree that upgrading the system avatars would be beneficial to both the existing users who've been reluctant to use mesh avatars, and beneficial towards LL's attempts to make a good first impression with new users.

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40 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

I hope we can agree that upgrading the system avatars would be beneficial to both the existing users who've been reluctant to use mesh avatars, and beneficial towards LL's attempts to make a good first impression with new users.

No I don't agree.  I doubt LL can update the classic avatar without killing off almost all the clothing that it can use.  I have a lot of mesh clothing that can only be used by the classic avatar, all of it Standard Size.  And one thing LL is not going to do is give everyone a mesh avatar comparable to what is on the market today, and that is what really needs to be done, but its not going to happen.

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52 minutes ago, Teagan Tobias said:

No I don't agree.  I doubt LL can update the classic avatar without killing off almost all the clothing that it can use.  I have a lot of mesh clothing that can only be used by the classic avatar, all of it Standard Size.  And one thing LL is not going to do is give everyone a mesh avatar comparable to what is on the market today, and that is what really needs to be done, but its not going to happen.

That is really not an issue. One way around this would be to make the updated system avatars separate from the classic system avatars and allow people to choose which they want to use at any time. Let people switch back and forth. This isn't a zero sum situation where to get an improvement you must give up the old content altogether.

And an updated system avatar would be a far better alternative than providing everyone with mesh body style mesh avatar, especially if you're updating all of the assets, sliders and UV along with it.

 

I have to say, that just the fact that so many people believe any new feature or improvement must come with a Sophie's Choice style dilemma shows just how poorly LL has handled updates and new features over the years.

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6 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

That is really not an issue. One way around this would be to make the updated system avatars separate from the classic system avatars and allow people to choose which they want to use at any time. Let people switch back and forth. This isn't a zero sum situation where to get an improvement you must give up the old content altogether.

And an updated system avatar would be a far better alternative than providing everyone with mesh body style mesh avatar, especially if you're updating all of the assets, sliders and UV along with it.

 

I have to say, that just the fact that so many people believe any new feature or improvement must come with a Sophie's Choice style dilemma shows just how poorly LL has handled updates and new features over the years.

Not only is it an issue, but its a huge issue.  The classic avatar is the base for every modern mesh avatar, you change your mesh avatar by changing sliders on your classic avatar.  Change the base/classic avatar and you destroy every mesh avatar on the grid.  That is why I said, “give everyone a mesh avatar comparable to what is on the market today”.   Not replace or update or get rid of the classic avatar, its pretty much set in stone.

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18 hours ago, janetosilio said:

My biggest disappointment is how antisocial and uncreative SL has become.

The days where people would just hangout and talk in world are gone. Meeting new people was much easier and fun. Now if someone you don’t know IMs you, it’s a pleasant surprise when it’s NOT something weird. You can’t even depend on the destination guide because people game them so hard, “popular” spots are empty. You even see profiles now that say “I don’t pay attention to local.” Wow!

sad but so true. :(

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6 hours ago, Teagan Tobias said:

Not only is it an issue, but its a huge issue.  The classic avatar is the base for every modern mesh avatar, you change your mesh avatar by changing sliders on your classic avatar.  Change the base/classic avatar and you destroy every mesh avatar on the grid.  That is why I said, “give everyone a mesh avatar comparable to what is on the market today”.   Not replace or update or get rid of the classic avatar, its pretty much set in stone.

In the post you're replying to I describe one way that problem can be avoided altogether. Another way would be to introduce custom skeletons, which LL has discussed in the past. Another way would be to provide an updated system avatar mesh which, while higher quality, stays close to the shape of the original and utilizes the original skeleton.

That is why I say it is not a problem, because it's really trivial to avoid it.

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On 10/15/2017 at 8:34 PM, SultanCrumpet said:

the lack of club toilets and avatar defecation

I worked at a club that had a toilet, I rezzed a few things in the bowl from time to time, sadly the club has now closed, the toilet may have been a factor in this.

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Not enough people to rent private islands parcels. (non Barron land) High land fees and the amount of fraud in the marketplace from people willy nilly reselling empty boxes as "full perm" mesh items and LL not taking a more proactive approach to it. 

 

 

Edited by Tarina Sewell

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My biggest disappointment was a pack of 11 animations I bought from someone once years ago for a single purpose. After buying them I realized every single animation had problems which could not be fixed in world. I contacted the creator about it and they wouldn't even reply to me so I ended up teaching myself how to make animations and basically made my own better versions :)

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