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Penny Patton

Why No-Mod?

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One of my BIG bugbears is not being able to put a Maitreya Autohide script into things.  Almost everything ends up in a folder with the autohide in a little prim.

I mean why do people sell Maitreya things that need Autohide anyway, just lazy rigging I guess, and it isn't hard for the creator to put the autohide in too.

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4 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

no mod?no sale.. we have over 1150000 mesh apparel items and of those less than 150k are mod, what a sad state sl finds itself in when the very reason to play the game (total viral freedom) is being counteracted buy people posting no mod items .. EVEN IF i like a no mod item i won't buy it, i refuse to put any more lin in that egotistical "designers"  pocket .. like in rl in sl consumers don't stand up for themselves, they feel powerless and just bend over for the sellers.. well most people, not me and a few others .. but just imagine .. what if we all stood up together? there was never anyone about to buy an item and seen its mod, then they go.. "oh nvm i hate mod rights, since the item is mod i won't buy it" .. what would happen if we all stopped buying no mod items?? 2 weeks top the fight would be over and mod rights would be added to every active sellers items i promise you this as they freak out any week things slow down (dont be a child, no one is talking about scripts or demos, animations ect) gotcha items ar a whole other issue..(but i don't care about the gatcha MESS) 

There are far more consumers than creators in SL and I'm willing to bet that the majority of those don't care that much.  Also, like mentioned above, the "average" SL user would just mess things up royally if they had the ability to mod things.  Thus it is likely easier on a creator's sanity to not have items being modifiable.

That said, there are two items I often want to modify and cannot, primarily for sizing issues (and I hate resize scripts):  Jewelry and unrigged hair (though I'm clueless enough to not even know if I could resize a mesh hair using the Build Stretch ability).

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4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

That said, there are two items I often want to modify and cannot, primarily for sizing issues (and I hate resize scripts):  Jewelry and unrigged hair (though I'm clueless enough to not even know if I could resize a mesh hair using the Build Stretch ability).

My biggest problem with jewelry is a lot of it has the worst lod on SL. You have to zoom in 3/4 to see a lot of it, zoom out a little bit and it disappears.

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4 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

no mod?

oh yes lets add a bit more to the six pages we already have... and for sure now we will get the solution... oh wait.. no it's just the same.... let it sleep.

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12 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

My biggest problem with jewelry is a lot of it has the worst lod on SL. You have to zoom in 3/4 to see a lot of it, zoom out a little bit and it disappears.

Yep.  Even the stuff that is well made so that it doesn't disappear from further away still often shoots your CI way up.  I really, really wish that demos of jewelry would become a thing.

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On 20/12/2017 at 5:15 PM, janetosilio said:

I recently got into modding, I know this topic is old. While I can definitely see the benefits of modding things and the reasons for making things non-mod are kind of ridiculous; there are a couple of things that need to be considered.

1) you have to keep in mind the average SL user. The average SL user can’t make a shape or figure out how a hud with more than three buttons work. This really isn’t an insult; the point is most people want things as easy to use as possible. It’s just human nature.

2) There are steps creators can do that would make the mod community a little happier. One is  also sell mod versions of things, but charge a little more for them. The second is to set up something where a group of mod minded creators get together and establish some kind of store or cooperative that sells items that compete with no modders and undercuts them.

That’s really the only way you’d see a change take place.

1) And vice versa. If they're not provided an opportunity to edit stuff, they'll never learn.

2) Or the other way. Since many creators justify their no-mod behind a form of pride as to keep their products unique then no-mod items should be priced up compared to mod.

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On 20/12/2017 at 7:48 PM, LittleMe Jewell said:

Also, like mentioned above, the "average" SL user would just mess things up royally if they had the ability to mod things.

Backup copy is a modder's best friend.

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I dislike no-mod stuff.
When I joined SL... or rather, when I joined again, I stayed because I learned how to twist prims. Everything I learned, I put into use - I modded the everloving crap outta everything I got my grubby little hands on. I've been on sl fo almost ten years, and I've spend at least half of that time on a sandbox, modding my stuff and having fun with it. I bought some things just to mod them.
I've never encountered a product that was mod and thought "Golly gee, you know what, it would be so much better if it where no-mod!", but I've encountered lot's of no-mod products where I thought of a variety of colourfull insults for the creator because god damn, I wanted to tint that stupid shoe so it matches my dress perfectly!


Also, gotta say that: I had one hell of a good time reading the first few pages of this thread. I've not seen such a hyperinflated, self-contradicting ego in a long time, it was wonderfull.

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I'm glad this topic was re-"awakened."  I wasn't even on SL a year ago when it was discussed at length, and I only occasionally get on the forums, but I happened to now; and I feel strongly about this issue.  This way I get to rant, as no-copy items, especially, drive me nuts, and no-mod as an option can be annoying and I feel is generally bad for sl.

I'd really love to see people start boycotting items that are not copy/mod (with few exceptions that were noted in the early posts of the thread), because particularly with mod, many item types it greatly restricts the selection if one only buys mod.  But if half the SL users who currently buy no-mod items stopped buying them, their creators' losing half their sales would push most of them to open up mod permissions. 

Some wouldn't.  Some create for the art and any money they make is a bonus, and that's fine; just expect to make less money then, and if your main reason for building is artistic expression I'm really okay with that if you accept that tradeoff.  Those creators would get a lot less revenue, but they wouldn't care much.  Those who care significantly about the money they make would all go to moddable, and that would open up many more options for those of us who want to buy moddable items.  Those who don't plan to mod anyway, don't get hurt.  It would be a win for everyone except those who wanted to have artist ethics but wanted businessperson profits.  They'd have to choose one or the other. 

Unfortunately, no boycott at that level is going to occur, but that's a shame and while I'll buy no-mod items at times, though generally only if they at least have things like huds to change things like textures and size, I give preference to mod and always will encourage others to do the same.  If enough items were mod, and in some categories enough are, I'd never buy no-mod.  The more people who at least give strong preference to items that can be modified, the more choices there will be for those who want them-- and by the way I choose that strong preference even if I don't plan to modify the object, just to use my money to discourage refusing mod permissions.

No copy is even worse in most cases.  There truly is one good reason to make an item no copy (instead of no transfer as protection against someone else selling one's content), and that is that there are things I've both put in my home and put a copy in a sim I'm a member of as a group.  I'm getting double value for it, maybe more if someone asked me to put a copy in their home too or something (on the other hand, multiple copies on the same lot I think creators should just factor in and charge more for a copy version if they want; and if it's an inventory item like clothing or a hud, there's no excuse for no-copy at all).  But that is very much outweighed by the fact that I've learned in my 7 1/2 months on SL, that:  Stuff.  Gets.  Lost.  (Sometimes, maybe usually, it's my fault, but sometimes it's because like any program SL is not bug free).

I bought my last expensive no-copy item, ever, when I rezzed it, somehow did something wrong and lost it, and had to buy it again to have one copy; I found a copy version that time or might have had to write it off completely.  I've lost at least one other item that way, for which I never bought the replacement.  Then it was Lindens thrown away.  With Copy, I can reopen the box if I lose something, and that happens at times but with Copy it's no big deal.  Fortunately, few enough items aren't available in Copy versions that I'll never spend more than maybe 100 Lindens on anything no copy anymore, and I give up the option of very few items to avoid those potential losses.

If someone's excuse for no-copy is that, like a Gacha, it's meant as a collector's item, that only makes sense as a reason if the creator limits the total copies they'll sell well below potential demand.  I still don't want it because I could lose it, but okay then.  I can get what you're going for.  "Only 50 people in all of sl have that item."  Then there's a truly direct decision to sacrifice profit for the vision you have, and I can respect that.  But don't claim that if you'll sell as many copies, no copy, as you can.  It's no collector's item if you'll sell as many as people will buy.  And there's almost never a good reason to buy a no-copy item, with as many good items without that restriction as exist.  "No copy" may soon almost cease to exist outside of Gachas and true collector's items, and that would be great for SL.  I still get frustrated when I like something and then see it's no-copy, and then I realize I'd go to a "skill gaming" region if I wanted to take a bad gamble like that.

I wish "no mod" might be on its way out soon, but that seems very unlikely given how many creators use it (outside of legit reasons like demos and scripts that could be modded to cheat a game or sim in some way, as was mentioned early in the thread; I don't think that many are creating a lot more for artistic rather than revenue purposes, such that they'd stick to it if it were costing them enough revenue; though I will repeat that if someone would keep their items no mod even if they'd only sell half as many I can respect their reasons; it would just be nice if they had to make that choice).

One last thing before I end the rant:  I read of a feeling of "entitlement" to copy/mod that was claimed.  My strong desire for Copy isn't a feeling of entitlement to have more than one of something.  It's a desire that if I buy something, I should never lose it short of screwing up even worse than I think I have at times-- certainly not, as can happen, due to a game bug, or a minor screw up like rezzing mesh on mesh.  Mod, as someone mentioned, is an entitlement in real life.  If I buy clothes in real life and want to make alterations, I can.  If someone buys a car and enhances the engine, no one will stop them.  If I pick up a hot dog and decide to cover it with chocolate pudding, most people (including me :D) would see that as silly, but I can't be stopped.  Modifying what has become one's own property pretty much ought to be an entitlement, as it is in real life, unless it's a demo or rigging something to cheat a sim or game or something.

Now, I can end my rant. :)

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On 12/20/2017 at 10:48 AM, LittleMe Jewell said:

Also, like mentioned above, the "average" SL user would just mess things up royally if they had the ability to mod things.  Thus it is likely easier on a creator's sanity to not have items being modifiable.

14 or 15 years of 'copy/mod' as the norm in the furry community proves this point incorrect though.

Unless you believe people who like furry avatars are vastly more intelligent than anyone else in SL - I'm sure some of the younger more juvenile members of their community still lack the world experience to believe their 'scene' makes them smarter... but we adults know you really can't say that about ANY demographic.

And yet furries have been making, selling, and buying copy/mod stuff since SL began. And I'm sure some of them mess their stuff up... then rez another copy or something and continue.

 

MOD used to be the norm for all of SL too... and it wasn't an issue until some creators got the idea that it might help copy-theft (it doesn't).

 

There ARE furry makers that will disagree with me and say their customers are bunch of idiots. I used to be in the group for one major furry brand and all the owner of the brand ever did was drop f-bombs all day long against the very people in her own group, while a small set of 'friends' basically said 'amen sister' to it all... And she'd spend all day saying how all these 'f-bombing mother f-bombs can't f-bombing have any f-bombing respect for a true f-bombing artist and cant' learn their f-bomb-hole from an f-bombing fbomber...

Or something like that... :D
(One point of fact I later discovered is that she was still a teenager during most of her time in SL. So there was the 'lack of perspective' coupled with suddenly becoming one of if not at the time the top selling brand in SL in her segment.)

 

All while I was in other furry groups where people where happily modding away their Chinchilla's into Meeroos  or Kenemono's into Anime or Solarians into whatever or something while the creators said nice things, or talking about video-games I was too old to get or music I was too out-of-the-scene to get... but they were all happily 'getting it done' without any f-bombing around or any creator dropping f-bombs all day long on them... :P

Basically... I kinda think the creators with massive support problems might want to look at what they are doing / saying and compare it to the ones who, in the same market, seem to have magically found the customers that don't give them headaches...

A lot of this "my customers are f-bombing f-bomb-tards that couldn't f-bombing figure it f-bombing out... is kind of a self-delusion and lack of respect for one's own market... That then "justifies" itself when the person 'f-bombs' their own support groups the first time there is an issue.

All while whole segments of the SL community still sell as copy/mod and 'SOMEHOW' don't have these problems.

...

Bought any SL furniture or houses lately? Very little of that is ever sold as no-mod... it exists, sure... and there are even fitmesh human bodies that are copy/mod... but both are not the norms in their segments. Yet the furniture and house markets have not 'collapsed' under the weight of bad customers... their customers are the very same ones that are buying bodies and clothes... Why are they capable of handling mod when it's a house or sexbed or something, but not when it's a t-shirt? Interesting that... ;)

 

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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Let’s not get crazy with calling furries the master race of SL.

Also, comparing furries to anything else is pointless. For furries it was always like that with modding; it’s in the dna of the community. For everything else you have to have an interest in creating to be familiar with modding. Most people don’t have an interest in creating, going into menus, adjusting tabs, stretching jewelry, etc. If it requires too much work to use it becomes less and less worth the hassle.

 That’s why you have guys with dingalings that don’t match the rest of them and people in the Maitreya help chat saying “help! How do I wear my skin on this body? I’m wearing the skin...nothing is happening.” If it doesn’t come out of the box completely ready to use.....somebody is going to have a problem.

I’m all for modding, but let’s be realistic. Most people would ***** it up. Face it modders, you’re outnumbered by....casual users.

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On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 9:28 PM, Sukubia Scarmon said:

Also, gotta say that: I had one hell of a good time reading the first few pages of this thread. I've not seen such a hyperinflated, self-contradicting ego in a long time, it was wonderfull.

I had to expand this, eyes are too old.  Now I hafta go back and read the first few pages, see what I missed!

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As I have said before but was ignore by divas, the clothing I sell is no-mod because I want it that way. I've thought about it with autohiding alphas brig a thing, but I still don't want to (I'll just add the scripts myself). As for tinting, I explicitly do not want people doing that. If I want to make this shirt red, I will make a red one that is properly made instead of letting people make my work look like garbage. There just isn't enough to be gained my basically making my clothes open source. Call it pride, call me a dick, call me a diva. I don't care, because it's my work and my rights. I'm more than willing to send minor custom work if someone asks, but so far, I really haven't gotten any requests.

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First, let me thank Penny for posting. I completely agree and am frequently frustrated by no-mod restrictions.

Inability to rename is my biggest issue with clothing and body parts. I often have items the characteristics of which can be changed by HUDs or scripts.  It is frequently convenient to  make copies that are set to different characteristics, e.g., color or texture, that are parts of different outfits that I want to be able to don instantly. If I could rename the items, I could just add "-Red" or "-Black" or whatever to the name. As it is, I have to create a separate folder for each one in order to keep up with which is which. Every time I have to do that, I think unkindly of the creator, who didn't give a s#!t about making things convenient for their customers.

Regarding the argument that users might mess up products: If I buy something, it's mine, and I should be able to mess it up to my heart's content. IRL, I can mess up anything I've bought---clothes, houses, appliances, cars, books, even artwork---and it doesn't seem to be a problem. It isn't in SL, either, except in the over-anxious minds of some creators. Most people are not going to buy something nice and then make it ugly; the few that do are not going to affect the creator's reputation significantly. 

Finally, the real underlying problem is that LL messed up royally by making the no-mod restriction possible at all for items that are sold and not given away; they could have and should have made the sale of anything for any amount greater than zero automatically set the permission to mod. What they did was to make it possible to enforce a legally non-enforceable restriction by technical means.

Just my $0.02 from someone who buys a lot of clothing and accessories.

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22 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

 Inability to rename is my biggest issue with clothing and body parts.

The name of an item should not be part of the 'modify/no-modify' rights.  This also frustrates a lot.

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On 12/28/2017 at 11:53 AM, janetosilio said:

Let’s not get crazy with calling furries the master race of SL.

Also, comparing furries to anything else is pointless. For furries it was always like that with modding; it’s in the dna of the community. For everything else you have to have an interest in creating to be familiar with modding. Most people don’t have an interest in creating, going into menus, adjusting tabs, stretching jewelry, etc. If it requires too much work to use it becomes less and less worth the hassle.

 That’s why you have guys with dingalings that don’t match the rest of them and people in the Maitreya help chat saying “help! How do I wear my skin on this body? I’m wearing the skin...nothing is happening.” If it doesn’t come out of the box completely ready to use.....somebody is going to have a problem.

I’m all for modding, but let’s be realistic. Most people would ***** it up. Face it modders, you’re outnumbered by....casual users.

If people "don’t have an interest in creating, going into menus, adjusting tabs, stretching jewelry, etc.", how would they "***** it up"?

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I kinda find the mentaly that as a creator, customers would screw your precious product up or make it look unflattering worrysome and to be honest, somewhat offending, as someone who had to _learn_ how to do it first.

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On 12/20/2017 at 6:58 PM, janetosilio said:

My biggest problem with jewelry is a lot of it has the worst lod on SL. You have to zoom in 3/4 to see a lot of it, zoom out a little bit and it disappears.

It might have to do with the LoD system not being set up for things of that size which need to be viewed from that sort of distance. There are tricks and compromises, but they're far from obvious and they don't always work.

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16 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If people "don’t have an interest in creating, going into menus, adjusting tabs, stretching jewelry, etc.", how would they "***** it up"?

I said all that to say most people aren’t interested in modding and anything that gets “too complicated” “most people” don’t have an interest in.

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SL-snobs.jpg.d440265459584516b3c7b4340ed8c2f9.jpg

snob
•a person who believes that their tastes in a particular area are superior to those of other people. ¬¬

Not saying that all "no-mod" designers are snobs but I have a strong feeling that some might be. ;)

Edited by Coby Foden
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I dislike no mod.  I have to like something a whole lot to buy no mod, and then it had better have a hud to change textures and the like.  If it's exactly the way the creator sold it and no changes can be made, no sale.  I wish more would do that, and anyone who wanted to make money from their creations would allow mods (or at least a hud with many options).  But you know what really gets to me?  No copy, particularly when it's something (clothes, animation, etc.) that can only be used from one's own inventory, and it's not a Gacha item.

If it's no copy furniture or something, at least they can say they feel that each use of it you should pay for.  I still won't buy it because lose it, which due to bugs is very easy to do, and your money is thrown away for nothing.  But some clothes or animations or skins are no copy.  They can only be used one at a time so no one is getting the use of multiple copies for one purchase.  It just allows you to make copies in case you lose one.  No copy is no sale to me in almost all circumstances, and should be to everyone.

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On 23/12/2017 at 4:24 AM, Madison531 said:

I bought my last expensive no-copy item, ever, when I rezzed it, somehow did something wrong and lost it, and had to buy it again to have one copy; I found a copy version that time or might have had to write it off completely.  I've lost at least one other item that way, for which I never bought the replacement.  Then it was Lindens thrown away.

This happens to me as well, and with No Copy items as well, but I have never lost anything to it.
Sometimes it happens that you do not have the correct landgroup available, or you rezz on a mesh object that doesn't work well with it (It happens, I cannot rezz items on the mesh floor of my house). Then the rezz is denied, and it seems that your item is lost.

In the past, most items would go to your lost and found, but nowadays I have found that once I relog, the item reappears in my inventory on the place where it was before. So when you lose a non-copy item due to Rezz-denial, relog, and look in the folder it was in before. I've recovered many a gacha item that way.

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34 minutes ago, lavalois said:

This happens to me as well, and with No Copy items as well, but I have never lost anything to it.
Sometimes it happens that you do not have the correct landgroup available, or you rezz on a mesh object that doesn't work well with it (It happens, I cannot rezz items on the mesh floor of my house). Then the rezz is denied, and it seems that your item is lost.

In the past, most items would go to your lost and found, but nowadays I have found that once I relog, the item reappears in my inventory on the place where it was before. So when you lose a non-copy item due to Rezz-denial, relog, and look in the folder it was in before. I've recovered many a gacha item that way.

 

I'll only play with gachas when they're really cheap because they (understandably) have to be no copy.  I almost never do.

Of the two items I referred to in the post you quoted, one I got back a day later in Lost and Found (I don't even recall if that was a rezz error; it was in my house where I never have trouble getting things to rezz).  That was the one I'd bought another copy of by the time it was returned, so I still double-paid.

The other, the one I never replaced, was a rezz error on land I didn't own but I has rezz rights to, but it was the mesh-rezz on mesh rezz error.  I decided to see if I'd get it back, and then when I didn't-- I never did-- I decided I still wasn't going to double-buy it.

One of those was furniture and one an appliance, so while I still hate no copy in those areas, at least I get why it's done.  My copyable furniture I've at times used in more than one spot, and not necessarily even all in one building.  I still say no copy should be no sale in those cases, and will not buy it myself (outside of tiny amounts I've spent on gachas, a total probably less than $L300), but with something like furniture I understand it.  It can be used in multiple places if it's copy.  There still is so much copyable or with copy versions I think people should avoid no copy, but there's some reason for it being no copy.

But why does clothing, skins, hair, animations, etc, that is no copy even exist though (non-gachas)?  There is no excuse for making it no copy-- maybe a trans version, which has to be no copy, for someone who might want to pass it on (though if it's a gift on marketplace it can be directly bought for the recipient, so I don't really get that).  Before my most recent post, I had just gone to write a positive review of an animation that was imperfect but a type I'd been looking for without success-- others that were awful existed-- and was low-priced enough I thought it deserved praise.  When I bought i, it was a "no trans" version, which also had a "no copy" version, but now it was no copy/no mod/trans according to marketplace.  I went through with the positive review, but almost decided not to, that if the creator made it no copy/no mod (which mod for an animation just means change the name, as they can't be modded in game anyway).  I've seen no copy clothing also.  Why?!  If it's no trans, it can't be used by more than one avatar.  The only reason to make it no-copy is to hope someone loses it and has to buy another.  There is zero excuse for it, and that should never, ever be bought.

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