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Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

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Callum Meriman wrote:

Let me put it this way...

 

We have normal residents who, now they know that SL's inventory can't be taken over and who will become increasingly aware that any money spent is 100% wasted, they, like me will reduce and stop buying.

We have content creators who, to get to sell in the new world will need to rebuild everything. Years of work lost.

We have TPV devs and patch submitters who now know that the anything they put into their TPVs or even right back to snowglobe could be used closed sourced. This is ethically wrong. Submissions made in the spirit of GPL and LGPL in which copyright was granted in good faith being used by the lab with a loss of opensource.

 

Does that make sense to you now?

 

LL has already burnt 2 sets of users, the TPV developers, a group of people LL have used for almost a decade to enhance their viewer, now look to be the third, UNLESS the lab are 100% sure not to ethically violate the GPL that I and others considered would remain in force.

Let's see here - what you're saying is that the new platform will be simultaneously so different from the current Second Life that no content can be brought over, and then so similar that massive amounts of viewer code submitted by third parties for the current world will have to be re-used.

No, that does not make sense to me.

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Callum Meriman wrote:

Let me put it this way...

 

We have normal residents who, now they know that SL's inventory can't be talen over will stop buying.

We have content creators who, to get to sell int he new world will need to rebuild everything.

We have TPV devs and patch submitters who now know that the anything they put into the TPV could be closed sourced. This is ethically wrong. Submissions made in the spirit of GPL and LGPL in which copyright was granted in good faith being used by the lab with a loss of opensource.

 

Does that make sense to you now?

 

LL has already burnt 2 sets of users, the TPV developers, a group of people LL have used for almost a decade to enhance their viewer, now look to be the third, UNLESS the lab are 100% sure not to ethically violate the GPL that I and others considered would remain in force.

when i signed the contribution agreement, i did take the time to understand what it said before signing and sending it in. closed source was always a possibility. everyone else who has contributed patches to LL has signed the same agreement.

there are some TPV developers who have wanted to keep their code strictly open source. some of them decided not to sign this agreement at all, and consequently LL will not accept their patches. others who have signed the agreement are free to pick and choose what patches they share with LL, and some are selective about what they share.

 
 

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Callum Meriman wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:

Thanks Loki. I can't wait to see what you'll create in SL and then I'm just totally drooling over what you will be able to create in the next gen product! 

More likely that Loki and the rest of us Kid roleplayers (or Goreans or Furrys or Kidnap/Rape roleplayers) wouldn't be allowed into the new world.

 

 

What that Ebbe (or any other Linden) has said gives you the idea the Kid roleplayers or Goreans or whoever won't be welcome in SL2?     I'm asking because I may well have missed something, but I really haven't seen anything that suggests to me  they've already decided to exclude any particular group or groups.    

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Callum, I am not a content creator (I wish I was as I marvel at their artistry) but I am a "normal" resident. I agree that going forward any money spent is 100% wasted and I will no longer buy items or rent land in Second Life Version 1. I have spent the last two days trying to rationally come up with ANY tangible reason or incentive to stay and I am at a loss. If someone can please help me. But I see no reason to stay in Version 1. When Version 2.0 comes out, I will most certainly give it a try but until then I will be out exploring other possibilities.

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I understand that you may not feel confortable to replay to my post on page 25, or maybe its too long and you dont have time to read it but please , since you are here.. just answer the questions I asked at the end. I repeat them here:

1 - What type of assets are more likelly to be transferable to SL2 and what probably not? (meshes, animations, sculpts, scripts, textures, builds made of normal prims, system clothing ?)

2 - Is SL2 to be considerd "another grid" in which case the TOS of most full permission creators would prohibit the transfer to that grid? If that is the case, could LL speak a word of power and decide that for full permission items that CAN be transfered, the new SL should be considered as the "same grid" ?

3 - Will at least the L$ currency remain the same and will available balances be usable in both worlds?

4 - Will the 2 worlds be connected in any way and will an avatar be able to move from one to another with the same name and profile and groups and friends? And .. some of its inventory..

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Yes, it's still to early to know those details.

Probably FBX, but again, early...

Goal is to empower creators to do any content we can (including skeleton), but again, early...

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WickedWanda1956 wrote:

Callum, I am not a content creator (I wish I was as I marvel at their artistry) but I am a "normal" resident. I agree that going forward any money spent is 100% wasted and I will no longer buy items or rent land in Second Life Version 1. I have spent the last two days trying to rationally come up with ANY tangible reason or incentive to stay and I am at a loss. If someone can please help me. But I see no reason to stay in Version 1. When Version 2.0 comes out, I will most certainly give it a try but until then I will be out exploring other possibilities.

For those of us who all ready live in more then one grid, this is nothing to panic about, this is not the end of SL it the end of LL only having one world, and that's next year some time just to start beta testing it.  SL will be around long after SL2 opens.  And when SL2 opens it's not likely to be fully developed like SL is that will take even more time.  Think if it as just going to an other sim but having to log in and out to do so,  you can go out and see all the new cool stuff and still go back to your home in SL,  which by the way they are still working on improving and will continue to do so.

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

Mesh should not be a major issue to carry over. 

That is good news indeed (even if it does not answer the question of whether owner-consumers will be able to port or whether we are talking about mesh creators).

 

 

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

Mesh should not be a major issue to carry over. 

Please expand on this a bit...

Mesh we uploaded or mesh we bought? What about mesh with a root prim attached?

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Pamela Galli wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:

Mesh should not be a major issue to carry over. 

That is good news indeed (even if it does not answer the question of whether owner-consumers will be able to port or whether we are talking about mesh creators).

 

 

I know the IP rights thing is a concern.

Maybe there will be some legal considerations if we can port our content over.

But one way to look at this would be if LL added a whole new continent to SL we wouldn't be restricted from taking our content there.

But I'll leave that to the lawyers to fight over.

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Regarding full perm mesh items sold to content creators in Second Life. MOST End User Liscenses state that the items are ONLY for the Second Life grid and cannot be ported to other grids. There are some mesh wholesalers that let people have the dae (more expensive) to use on other grids.

While it would be NICE if the high tech boys could figure out a way to port over the items we have purchased (just regular copy items, not full perm) there is the question of intent of the sellers. DID the folks selling the items mean for them to be used on grids other than THIS grid?

It seems fairly obvious and Ebbe just confirmed that mesh will likely not be a problem (perhaps clothing mesh will not fit, but things like houses and furniture and such will likely be OK). BUT while the shopper in me would like to have my very huge inventory on another grid, the merchant in me is not so sure about that part of the equation.

It will be a very fine line to walk. Obviously if we are talking mesh, the designers can upload onto the new grid (presumably). I have done that on two other grids already. Takes some time and the rules are always a bit different, but doable.

 

 

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Hello and welcome to the forum :)

 

I was curious if you can say whether the brand Second Life will be on the new product and the old SL would be something like SL classic or SL legacy?

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> The way I see it is LL can either spend a ton of resources hobbling along on SL 1.0 or they can just start over with something better and use those resources to improve their features.

OR they could do what older MMO's have done, revised the graphical engine, optimized, rebuilt the client.   Sadly, they take the easy way out as they always have.    Look at sculpts, rolled out and forgotten.  Mesh, rolled out and forgotten forever until finally (and grudgingly) they add a few more bones for rigging purposes on AV's.     You seem to be under the impression that 2.0 is magically going to be better.  This is LL....and regardless what ebbe (and all the past CEO's singing the same song since King Philip) says...It is the same bunch of devs (for the most part) working in the same environment / office politics as always.     I've been here 9 years now....they have a track record of releasing broken and badly structured code and promising 'fixes' that never seem to happen or happen YEARS after release...then fecklessly heading off to the next project which they will half-a** complete, over and over.

2.0 is going to be no exception to this, unless they fire the whole company and hire new devs without a history of taking the easy route and releasing half-complete.

 

> What would you rather have? An SL where Lindens spend their time fixing a broken MySQL Cluster and dealing with it not working half the time, or an SL where Lindens have a stable platform they've developed learning from what went wrong with the initial product and developing new features?

I'd rather have 1.0 with its broken server clusters and such.   I am here for the duration of SL 1.0 and will not be moving to SL 2.0...I have NO desire to have to shell out cash for lindens to attempt to replicate even a fraction of my current inventory.   I have also ceased buying Lindens and probably will downgrade from premium in the near future.

The only part of this announcement I approve of is that SL will no longer be open source, regardless of their features, TPV's have delayed LL rollouts while they play catch-up.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:

Mesh should not be a major issue to carry over. 

That is good news indeed (even if it does not answer the question of whether owner-consumers will be able to port or whether we are talking about mesh creators).

 

 

I know the IP rights thing is a concern.

Maybe there will be some legal considerations if we can port our content over.

But one way to look at this would be if LL added a whole new continent to SL we wouldn't be restricted from taking our content there.

But I'll leave that to the lawyers to fight over.

Shhhhh, Perrie, keep this under your hat, but I think the TOS may have something to do with this.

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Chic Aeon wrote:

Regarding full perm mesh items sold to content creators in Second Life.
MOST End User Liscenses state that the items are ONLY for the Second Life grid and cannot be ported to other grids.
There are some mesh wholesalers that let people have the dae (more expensive) to use on other grids.

While it would be NICE if the high tech boys could figure out a way to port over the items we have purchased (just regular copy items, not full perm) there is the question of intent of the sellers. DID the folks selling the items mean for them to be used on grids other than THIS grid?

It seems fairly obvious and Ebbe just confirmed that mesh will likely not be a problem (perhaps clothing mesh will not fit, but things like houses and furniture and such will likely be OK). BUT while the shopper in me would like to have my very huge inventory on another grid, the merchant in me is not so sure about that part of the equation.

It will be a very fine line to walk.
Obviously if we are talking mesh, the designers can upload onto the new grid (presumably). I have done that on two other grids already. Takes some time and the rules are always a bit different, but doable.

 

 

Thinking the TOS may cover it. LL can do anything with anyone's content :-)

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Maklin Deckard wrote:

 

I'd rather have 1.0 with its broken server clusters and such. 

The great thing is, you can. People will have a choice as to which platform they want to support.

 


Maklin Deckard wrote:.

The only part of this announcement I approve of is that SL will no longer be open source, regardless of their features, TPV's have delayed LL rollouts while they play catch-up.

Ditto!

 

 

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I asked this and 3 other important questions already twice (page 25 and 37) but Ebbe keeps jumping around them and replies to all posts except this ..

It's 5:30 AM now here in Europe and I really have to go sleep .. without an answer. Hope to find one when i wake up :)

But logically speaking, in my oppinion SL2 should not be considered "another world"..

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

 

Goal is to empower creators to do any content we can (including skeleton), but again, early...

Can you say if this refers to in-world empowerment or external program empowerment? In my opinion, the in-world creation aspect of SL is something we've lost. The more in-world creation that is possible, the more attention span you garner.

Imagine how many hours are spent in external programs instead of occupying your virtual world.

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"Probably FBX"

Ugh! Isn't that a format with no public specification? That's surely a recipe for problems. We would need a precise definition of the way data is read by SL if Gaia and Co. are going to try to ensure compatability, and if we are going to be able to diagnose problems. I'd hate to try to work that out without source code! I suppose it just depends what the chosen engine wants though.

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Yes thats very bad news indeed.. As far as i understand, that means that ALL animations and animated items in the present SL will not be transferable to SL2. I hope im wrong but FBX is .. "something completelly different"..

And I spent over 2 million lindens in full permission animations ...

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Dear Ebbe,

Re: "Goal is to empower creators to do any content we can". So I see you are making the same mistake as the early Lindens, and other platform providers for virtual worlds like Blue Mars.

What you fail to realize is that the content creation class of only perhaps 2-5% of the users can't drive the economy; people expect in an open-ended simulation that isn't a structured game that they will have "real-life" functionality like making a living and having something to do.

People come into virtuality to do three things: a) play war b) play house c) play store. These are important human functions you can't erase from online existence. SL has fortunately downplayed a) because WoW existed and has been very good at b) and c). But "store" has to involve not just content creation but land, as  *there must be a way for unskilled laborers to find participation in the world economy*.


If you think that's not a serious problem, you're forgetting where your bread is buttered: tier.

There is no way that other title sales, subscriptions, fees for currency or sales tax on creation sales will make a revenue stream as large as land. All media faces the problem that it can't live on subscriptions and classifieds especially online, and must use big advertising, which is the equivalent of sim set-up fees and tier. Think of tier as advertising revenue for media like TV or radio or online news sites and you will understand it better, because you seem to want to ditch it.

No virtual world has never made it on either freebie/freemiums/hugely low-cost server offerings (and they've all tried). Because unless the company can share power with pro-sumers who *take care of their customers for them* they cann't function. LL is especially poor on governance and CS -- if you want to understand just how badly, go ahead and try to shaft the tens of thousands of land owners picking up that slack for you now with hundreds of thousands of users.

Now I want a simple answer about the sim transition: is it 1:1 transition? pennies-on-the-dollar one-time compensation? Because it sounds like the contiguous geographical model is going to be ditched in favour of bubbles or "on-demand" Unity style sims or cloud parties or whatever.  So if there is no 1:1 transition formula possible, what's the offer going to be on sim compensation?

Unless this issue is resolved FIRST, you won't have revenue for development, you will shaft the future customer base.

Time for the real-life media to get moving on covering this issue now so that you can start providing more crisp and clear answers.

Finally, it sounds like you were spooked into this move and this premature leakage (which was about the open source fanatics trying to force your hand on that question) because of fear of FB and Oculus Rift and its "billion". But none of us peeped because it's entirely unserious. You forget that we've seen Google's Lively come and go with a resounding crash and absolute failure -- we were there. Google, with its billions and its capacity, failed miserably because they wouldn't share power and allow enough customer control and a market, including in land, which is essential. Metaplace, a much kinder and smarter VW, also came and went and failed as did its more farm-like island sequel. Remember Vivaty? Remember Small World? Remember Metaverse? Unless a company has a vision of sharing power and land for sale, no one cares. Everyone knows that if it's not a war game, it will be dull -- nobody wants to come and gawk at your 2% FIC content that they can't even size or edit or adjust, let alone make and sell their own stuff. If I wanted a ViewMaster, I'd go on my closet and find my Disney one from when I was 8 years old.

No one can react to your leaks with anything but the most pragmatic approach of setting all available land to sale and also content, and ceasing all new purchases of content and land. That's because you don' t have an inclusive transition plan for the people who pay your revenue every month.

Prokofy Neva

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

People come into virtuality to do three things: a) play war b) play house c) play store.

<snip>

Prokofy Neva

Well, as ebbe wrote, there is option d)

 


Ebbe Linden wrote:

We just want you to be able to make even better cats

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