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Thanks Zena. I am honestly beginning to think that this is a generational arguement. With the old (like me) thinking that ownership means a damm versus the new (like my daughter) thinking that EVERYTHING is disposable.

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WickedWanda1956 wrote:

Thanks Zena. I am honestly beginning to think that this is a generational arguement. With the old (like me) thinking that ownership means a damm versus the new (like my daughter) thinking that EVERYTHING is disposable.

Yeah, that's about right.

You don't "own" your eBooks anymore -- you lease them from Amazon or whoever, and they have the right to remove them if they like.

Increasingly, you can't buy software outright anymore either. Is MS Office even available on anything other than a leasing arrangement anymore? Or Adobe CS?

Welcome to the Brave New World of online content.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

1 part that continuously bothers me, and really the only thing I can fault Ebbe on, is his TOS responses, which he doesn't seem to take seriously. When the CEO doesn't take my IP serious, I have good reasons to be nervous. It is not enough to say the company has no intention. By creating this new world, LL has seriously missed the fact that we aren't forced to join. The ONLY reason they got away with the current language in the TOS, is because we, and our stuff, were already here. We were essentially forced to agree. If LL wants their transition to the new SL to be smooth, then they better start taking our IP seriously.

IDK how this works in the US, but where I live one can create all the TOS one wants, but if they are in violation of the minimum requrements of the law, they are null and void. 

Meaning those TOS executed in my country would give me, the creator, the full IP rights as stated in the law. 

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Chic Aeon wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

I think with porting to other grids, the stuff would have to be full perm. T hat would never fly with me. It would not be for me as a creator a moral issue for ppl to take any of my stuff on the same account with the same perms.

 

I am not all that techie (always did the pretty part of web work) but I think it would be possible for The Lab (since it legally can) to simply MATCH (or perhaps transfer in case of no copy items - who knows) inventories on the new grid.

What "I" would shoot for
(JUST CONJECTURE FOLKS - I HAVE NO INSIDE INFO)
would be to let folks keep their names, contacts, groups etc as much as possible AND their inventories (mostly mesh things and by then most of the good stuff people have will likely be mesh). So people wouldn't need to "port" their own stuff over at all.
THIS WOULD BE A HUGE HELP TO THE CONTENT CREATORS THAT WANT TO MOVE THINGS OVER.
HINT HINT.

Now the problem I foresee is once again a moral one.  Could I still be Chic Aeon in SL 1.0 AND Chic Aeon in SL 2.0? Could I have have the same inventories (albeit smaller in SL 2 for things that wouldn't be supported (like sculpts I hope)?    

Personally, I would like that. MORALLY I think that no copy items should either be on one grid or another, not both. That's ME though.

 

If as stated ppl can keep their identities and I can import my mesh stuff into SL2 (and then add scripts, animation etc.) then I can in some way replace whatever high ticket stuff they buy in SL1.  Just dont want them ever to get the idea that buying stuff from me in SL1 going forward is a waste of money.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

We have been given at least 2 years notice so...

1. Creators have nothing to complain about.

We spend a little time making something once and then sell copies of it it for a long time afterwards. We make a bundle for our efforts on our creations, and we have at least 2 more years of earning from them too. So we may need to do much of the work again. So what? We've already had plenty of financial rewards from our efforts.

Ebbe said that creators will be the main ones, or something like that. Right now, at least 2 years in advance, we don't know what will still be useable in SL2, but I truly believe that we will know well in advance of the launch, so we will be able to prepare for it.

 

2. Buyers have nothing to complain about.

Whatever is bought now will work for at least 2 more years. I see nothing wrong with that. Most of it will have stopped being used long before 2 years is up, anyway. Buyers need not concern themselves until the time is approaching, and only then reduce or stop their buying..

 

3. Land owners

Those who bought sims from LL may be on the wrong end of SL2. Tier is fine, because it will all be used, but the initial cost may be a problem. However, LL may allocate land in SL2 so that the owners can just continue with tier, or with whatever system they use.

 

Overall

I don't see any cause for complaint from any section of the community at this stage. I do see cause for some concern for those who bought land from LL though.

I pretty much agree with your comment and have been wondering why folks seem to think all the content creators are going to leave NOW?  Evidently ONE is (from a previous message in this thread) but I am having a problem understanding why.

 

Point 1

 

Right now, there is nowhere to move TO.  I have been on a variety of grids. On two of them I was one of the best builders there (everything is relative folks). On one I was one of the top money makers, but that was VERY VERY little compared to what I make in SL as a "second tier" (my term) content creator.  I am currently on one other grid. While I have done well in the winter, summer is DIRE there while it is doing just fine for me here.

You need a population of BUYERS to make money. There is no other grid that compares to SL 1.0. So leaving might make people feel better emotionally, but it is certainly not a wise business move.

 

Point 2

I buy very little really. A long time blogger I have an overflowing inventory of gorgeous items. BUT, even if I did buy more (and I do now and then for my alt) things do "wear out". While I still have some texture garments in my inventory, I have pretty much thrown away any items with sculpts (including furniture).  There are some exceptions but losing them would not be a big deal for me. If I see something great on a Fifty Linden Friday or at Arcade Yard Sale, I will still be buying. So MY spending habits will not be changing.

And as you say, as time get closer it is likely we will know what will and wont transfer. So "fitted mesh" might work and by then more fitted mesh will be available. Also there are new mesh avatars coming out and it seems likely (NO INFO - JUST CONJECTURE) that since they are clothes and body SYSTEMS -- they will work on SL 2.0.  Again, The Lab letting folks know when THEY know is a good idea.  [EDIT: Thinking on this as I reread, they might need to be reworked and upgraded for amature since they are built I beleive on the SL 1.0 base (not my area) but most likely doable. ]

I have a few other thoughts but I will keep those to myself :D

 

Point 3

Landowners may get hurt in this deal. Land (once a big money maker) has been a problematic area for many folks for a long while.  Ebbe has stated that the current thoughts on money stream have land being less expensive and taxes on goods higher.  That may work out for them. Hard to say at this point OR even if land will be resalable. I haven't heard or read anything official on that.

 

 

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I wouldn't be surprised if your comment aims to the heart of the matter. They may want a younger audience for SL V2 who is more interested in a new high tech world, and not the oldies who were with SL V1 from the start, investing all their time, creativity, energy and money.  


'Thanks for being with us and making us what we are today, we need new blood now, no worries though, we will erase you gently.'


SL V1 will likely become a ghetto for 40+ residents (yay us).


SL V2 will likely be a high tech disneylike playground for the young and the technical (yay future..).

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Thank you for bringing a bit of saneness to the party!

And there are plenty of people who are NOT upset, just wondering and possibly cautious -- a few excited.

 

This is the forum and while you and I hang out in MESH most of the time, it can get pretty volatile and whinny in the chatty sections -- sure you know that *wink*.

 

Not really surprised.  And in my opinion there would never be a perfect (or even better) time to unveil the plan.

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That's sounds all reasonable. And it truly would work this way if we were robots. Though humans don't function all that reasonable. If they have a gut feeling about something, they hesitate to buy something, no matter how reasonable it is. :matte-motes-tongue:


About content creation, and spending just a little time, and creators will be the primary customer in SL2, with the abillity to create things that couldn't be done before.

To me this sounds like as follows:

Most of the creators I know, spend a huge amount of time and effort in developing products, which will be sold at very little prices. Which means, they monetize over a rather long period of time until you can speak of  real profit they made.

A primary customer to me is the customer who spends the most money on my product.

So it could mean that content creators will have to pay much more, be it upfront, or sales tax (you name it), or whatever.

Being able to make content that couldn't be done before, requires most likely an even more advanced skillset to stay competitive. Hence, it takes even more time and effort and money, to make marketable products. (I already started learning C#, because Ebbe dropped a line, it could be C# in SL2, could be JavaScript as well, or something else. Would be good to know, but I just started with C#).

Paying more, spending more time in creation would only work out if the "hundreds of millions of people" will flood into SL2., and making up the loss with a significant increased sales rate.

Though, I'm not going to see these hundreds of millions at all. Why should hundreds of millions of people come into a virtual world? Where you have to pay with hard cash on almost everything you want to do?

Will they come in only because of WE think SL is awesome? Aren't they here already, and throwing huge amounts of money at Linden Lab, only because of the SL client is so incredibly difficult to operate? Which it truly isn't. Anybody who isn't able to press a few buttons, and tapping on the arrow keys isn't ambitious enough to be attracted in a VW anyway (my opinion of course).

So there is just too many question marks right now, to stay calm and positive. Not being concerned at all, and going on as nothing has happened is pretty naive imho.

 

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The problem with that course of action is if there are more young people like my daughter and not like us. My daughter is CONSTANTLY on World of Warcraft and she tells me that people there are forever making fun and laughing at all of us, Second Lifers. I can't even repeat some of the jokes they have said in WoW about us. Her feeling is that people of her generation (25-35) are more into games like WoW then what the "old" people (like me) are into. Actually if someone can give me a counter arguement to her I would appreciate it.

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WickedWanda1956 wrote:

Thanks Zena. I am honestly beginning to think that this is a generational arguement. With the old (like me) thinking that ownership means a damm versus the new (like my daughter) thinking that EVERYTHING is disposable.

You're right about that.  Now a days when someone's toaster breaks they go buy a new one.  Me, I open it up and see if a wire came loose.  Unfortunately more and more things have become more expensive to fix than to replace.

But that also brings me to the reason I came here to post.  Thank you for giving me a good post to tag this on to.

I am hearing many people saying they are abandoning their land or downsizing.

Why?

I don't completely see the logic in this.

At best all that all of us have ever done is pay rent here when you boil it down.

You had your move in costs (buying the SIM or Parcel) and then you pay rent (Tier).

Now if you were purchasing land today as a way to generate income, it would be different because you would want to be certain of your return on investment. 

But if all you are doing is using the land for personal enjoyment, what's the big deal?

Why deprive yourself of that enjoyment?

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Gavin Hird wrote:

IDK how this works in the US, but where I live one can create all the TOS one wants, but if they are in violation of the minimum requrements of the law, they are null and void.

Meaning those TOS executed in my country would give me, the creator, the full IP rights as stated in the law. 


When you join SL, you accept the TOS. The TOS contains terms that give them rights to your IP. If you accept the TOS, you accept the terms. You have willfully given LL rights to use your IP. Your country's laws will mostly likely expect you to respect those terms.

If you wish not to give LL the right to your IP, don't enter SL.

I haven't noticed anything in the TOS that violates US law, and the TOS reads very much like Google's TOS. I'll guess that Google's lawyers vetted their TOS with at least US and EU savvy lawyers.

Your country likely gives you legal avenues to protect your IP. They're even more likely to give you legal avenues to give those rights away, as you do when you agree to the TOS.

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WickedWanda1956 wrote:

The problem with that course of action is if there are more young people like my daughter and not like us. My daughter is CONSTANTLY on World of Warcraft and she tells me that people there are forever making fun and laughing at all of us, Second Lifers. I can't even repeat some of the jokes they have said in WoW about us. Her feeling is that people of her generation (25-35) are more into games like WoW then what the "old" people (like me) are into. Actually if someone can give me a counter arguement to her I would appreciate it.

What is it that we are refuting?  We know the complaints we hear from people who WOW.  They can't find anything to do or SL runs poorly.

Performance wise they are right.  SL doesn't run as smooth as WOW.

As far as "things to do,' if they lack imagination, then that is their short coming and really it reflects badly on them.

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Zena Zemlja wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

The thing is, you buy things you want to have pleasure from right now. You don't buy things as an investment for the distant future. If you can't get enough pleasure from the tiny amounts of RL money that things cost, then stop buying now. SL is a pleasurable passtime/hobby. If you think of it as such, because that's exactly what it is, you'll see that the tiny amounts of money that items cost are an extremely small price to pay for the pleasurable hobby/passtime.

I wholeheartedly disagree.
You buy something, no matter what the costs, it's yours
.
You create something, the copyright is yours.
You build a community or a business over many years, investing in buying or renting expensive land - I do think the price and tier of land is ridiculous in sl - that's not just a few dollars or euros, that thousands of dollars or euros over the years
. And we will not be able to move it to the new 'platform'?
Do they seriously expect us to rebuild our own creations all over again?
I own 16 galleries in sl with thousands of artworks from many artists. Do they really think I'm going to upload all images again and frame them again in their brave new world? What about groups, can they be 'transferred' or will we lose all our customers in the process as well? Yay, we can make a new start... sorry, won't go there, and I know many will not. I think SL may seriously have to reconsider their plans. They may have shot themselves in the foot big time with this. People will stop buying already now, in world and sl marketplace both, untill they know what they can keep or transfer. Every sl business will suffer from this and LL will suffer the most, financially. 

Except in a virtual world where you are forced to agree to the ToS that whever you think is yours, isn't :) It's virtual., data stored on someone else's computer. If you really think it's yours, go and get it :)

Fine. I don't disagree with that. Keep a copy in your computer because you have no right to keep a copy in someone else's if they don't want you to.

If you bought land from LL, then you may end up with cause for complaint. Not because of tier, because you'll get full use of that, but because of the initial cost. If you only rent land, then you'll get full use of the rent you paid. Whatever else you invested in your business, you've either got full pleasure or financial reward out of. If it's relatively new, then you will have by the time SL2 is launched.

Quite likely. Do you sell the artworks? If you do, you already have your financial rewards, and there'll be more to come for the 2 years at least. If you don't sell, them, and it's a work of love, then you'll still have your reward for the next 2 years at least. I appreciate that it will take a lot of time to redo it all in SL2 but we were never able to rely on the continuance of SL. That was always on the cards, and we all knew it.

I'm sorry to sound so hard about it, but we can't live in the past just because it means some of us will have to redo what we've already done. That would be grossly unfair to the population as a whole, and to the future of SL. I'm a merchant, and I've uploaded a lot of stuff - not thousands like you have though - and I accept having to redo it all if I want to continue. I'd rather that than hold progress back just because it's inconvenient for me and people like me. I've written all the scripts in my stuff, I've made all my own animations for my stuff, and, of course, I've built all my stuff, and it's all taken an awful lot of time too. I can add that I've made a lot of RL money from it all, so I've been very well rewarded for my effort. If I choose to continue, I may have to do all the scripts again, perhaps in a different language, do all the animations again, perhaps in a different format, and do all the building again, but I accept all that for the sake of a much better world.

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WickedWanda1956 wrote:

The problem with that course of action is if there are more young people like my daughter and not like us. My daughter is CONSTANTLY on World of Warcraft and she tells me that people there are forever making fun and laughing at all of us, Second Lifers. I can't even repeat some of the jokes they have said in WoW about us. Her feeling is that people of her generation (25-35) are more into games like WoW then what the "old" people (like me) are into. Actually if someone can give me a counter arguement to her I would appreciate it.

No, I cannot give you a counter arguement, as a matter a fact, I hear same thing: most young people are not interested at all in Second Life, as SL seems to have an image problem: an online game for 'old people', and especially for 'oldies' who come online for seksual activities. I bet the comments you cannot repeat are about the bdsm lifestylers among us. Mom whipping dad's ass online, that's not happening in World of Warcraft. They 'only' kill each other there. I would not be surprised if the new brave world they are planning on will erase all 'adult' content in the process as well. 

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WickedWanda1956 wrote:

Thanks Zena. I am honestly beginning to think that this is a generational arguement. With the old (like me) thinking that ownership means a damm versus the new (like my daughter) thinking that EVERYTHING is disposable.

:) I'm retired too. I'll be 70 later this year so it's not a generational thing :)

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Thanks Perrie (I love Marvin too). I realize that creators and land barons might have diferent concerns than me but I am just a consumer. It all comes down to the question I asked upthread from here. Will lindens transfer on a one-to-one exchange rate from version 1 to version 2? As a consumer, my avatar and inventory can be replaced, but if lindens are not tranferable and I have not seen any thing about this anywhere, I just simply don't see the point in continuing.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

They're even more likely to give you legal avenues to give those rights away, as you do when you agree to the TOS.

Actually no. You cannot give away the minimum rights as stated by the law. This is something all software companies have experienced meeting European legislation. Google's TOS are not the same in Europe as they are in the US. 

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

They're even more likely to give you legal avenues to give those rights away, as you do when you agree to the TOS.

Actually no. You cannot give away the minimum rights as stated by the law. This is something all software companies have experienced meeting European legislation. Google's TOS are not the same in Europe as they are in the US. 

What right do you give away in the TOS that's in contradiction to an EU law?

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Zena Zemlja wrote:


WickedWanda1956 wrote:

The problem with that course of action is if there are more young people like my daughter and not like us. My daughter is CONSTANTLY on World of Warcraft and she tells me that people there are forever making fun and laughing at all of us, Second Lifers. I can't even repeat some of the jokes they have said in WoW about us. Her feeling is that people of her generation (25-35) are more into games like WoW then what the "old" people (like me) are into. Actually if someone can give me a counter arguement to her I would appreciate it.

No, I cannot give you a counter arguement, as a matter a fact, I hear same thing: most young people are not interested at all in Second Life, as SL seems to have an image problem: an online game for 'old people', and especially for 'oldies' who come online for seksual activities. I bet the comments you cannot repeat are about the bdsm lifestylers among us. Mom whipping dad's ass online, that's not happening in World of Warcraft. They 'only' kill each other there. I would not be surprised if the new brave world they are planning on will erase all 'adult' content in the process as well. 

I live in a bit of a precarious position here because while I firmly maintain that what goes on between two consenting adults is their business, there  is a lot of  some activity that falls under the umbrella of BDSM it would not bother me one bit if it went bye, bye.

(corrected to say what I meant)

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According to the law you cannot give away your IP rights in the form of a TOS.

The TOS can in many ways be seen as a one way declaration which makes it void. 

EDIT: and also privacy rights and others – one of the reasons Europeans balked big time over the Adult verification backle. 

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Just turned 58 earlier this month. I love Second Life and don't want to leave. I just need to have an answer to my linden transfer balance question sometime in the next month. As a consumer, I can rebuild but if Lindens don't transfer, I simply don't see the point in at least trying to look for something new now as I will be starting from scratch in two years anyway.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

They're even more likely to give you legal avenues to give those rights away, as you do when you agree to the TOS.

Actually no. You cannot give away the minimum rights as stated by the law. This is something all software companies have experienced meeting European legislation. Google's TOS are not the same in Europe as they are in the US. 

What right do you give away in the TOS that's in contradiction to an EU law?

Really, the correct question is, "What right that has been upheld by a European Court is in contradiction?"

Otherwise, all we are going to get here are a lot of personal opinions.

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WickedWanda1956 wrote:

Just turned 58 earlier this month. I love Second Life and don't want to leave. I just need to have an answer to my linden transfer balance question sometime in the next month. As a consumer, I can rebuild but if Lindens don't transfer, I simply don't see the point in at least trying to look for something new now as I will be starting from scratch in two years anyway.

Then just buy what you need when you need them.

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You cannot give away such rights as property rights through what the law sees as a one way declaration. It can be done in a two way signed contract, but not in TOS. It has been tested multiple times in many European countries including mine.

Mind you, this waries a bit even inside the EU, so it cannot explicitly be stated for all the EU countries. 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


WickedWanda1956 wrote:

Thanks Zena. I am honestly beginning to think that this is a generational arguement. With the old (like me) thinking that ownership means a damm versus the new (like my daughter) thinking that EVERYTHING is disposable.

You're right about that.  Now a days when someone's toaster breaks they go buy a new one.  Me, I open it up and see if a wire came loose.  Unfortunately more and more things have become more expensive to fix than to replace.

But that also brings me to the reason I came here to post.  Thank you for giving me a good post to tag this on to.

I am hearing many people saying they are abandoning their land or downsizing.

Why?

I don't completely see the logic in this.

At best all that all of us have ever done is pay rent here when you boil it down.

You had your move in costs (buying the SIM or Parcel) and then you pay rent (Tier).

Now if you were purchasing land today as a way to generate income, it would be different because you would want to be certain of your return on investment. 

But if all you are doing is using the land for personal enjoyment, what's the big deal?

Why deprive yourself of that enjoyment?

Every month, there's a story of some natural disaster that wipes something out. A year later there's an article about the recovery, showing shiny new things sitting right where the old ones were blown away.

Every winter, I make a snowman. It seldom survives a month.

Every autumn, I carve a pumpkin. It seldom survives a week.

Every summer, I build a sandcastle. It seldom survives a day.

Every evening, I cook dinner. It seldom survives an hour. 

Every hour I make a mistake. Some of those survive forever.

;-).

 

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