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Jo Yardley

Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

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"and of course all the things SL has now will be part of the new world."

Anyone want to take a bet there wont be a sculpt to be seen there?

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

Anyone want to take a bet there wont be a sculpt to be seen there?

I certainly hope not! :matte-motes-big-grin:

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I have just been walking down a street in Second Life, when I came across a man carrying a sign that read "The end of the World is nigh". Obviously, one sees this quite often in Real Life, but I was somewhat surprised to now be seeing it in Second Life.

I approached the man and enquired of him, "Why do you say this Sir?".

The man then pulled out a mobile device and read the following to me, (presumablky from SLGO);

Then spake the Lord Ebbe unto them, saying, look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou and the sky builds are higher than the clouds, no more will thou see ugly, unrealistic flying buildings. Then spake the Lord Ebbe again unto them, saying, I am the light of the new Second Life: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness of bad sim crossings and poorly constructed creations, but shall have the light of full mesh life.

 

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Phoebe Avro wrote:

Anyone want to take a bet there wont be a sculpt to be seen there?

I certainly hope not! :matte-motes-big-grin:

Well, in fact Mesh can be an order of magnitude more inefficient than sculpts, without suffering any Land Impact penalty. That's because, for all the clunkiness of the sculpt's geometry, it can only absorb one absurdly too-high-resolution texture -- an effect trebled with Materials. In general the Land Impact calculations are pretty much crap for completely ignoring count and resolution of maps.

So I'm hoping that 90% of existing mesh will be prohibitively expensive to import to the new grid, along with most everything else. I want my existing Inventory to be obsolete -- and genuinely so: the new world should be so much better that we'll want to leave behind all this junk with which we're currently so pleased.

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

Thanks. So FB/Oculus came out and said they are going to do a VW for a
billoin
people. I did not hear a peep from anyone here. How
compatibale
will that world be? When will all users run over to that one? Should I invest in SL now that they are donig that...etc.

May I suggest that you at least use the built-in spell-checker before hitting post.

Leaving errors like these in posts makes you appear a foolish foreign ESLer to some, an arrogantly lazy inconsiderate supremacist to others, or even that you are extremely rattled by the widespread opposition that yet another PR faux pas has generated.

"All you bloodthirsty bystanders will you try to find your seats"

 

 

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

Thanks. We will clearly try to make sure things work out for the best for our users and that we are fair (although I can't guarantee that all will be happy; some will be happier, some will find their niche is less valuable and a large number of new users will find new ways to create that hasn't been done before). 

I ended up posting where there was volume on the topic. I don't worry too much if it's "my" board or someone elses...as long as there's useful dialog I'm ok...

Perhaps you should have initiated the debate on Facebook instead? That would have ensured that nobody from SL would have participated. And it would have been ironic, in the completely incorrect meaning of the word.

"Your twisted fate has found  you out"

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The main problem with LI is that it is an artificial number that Linden Lab created to justify the cost on mesh which in reality were based on the impact of the mesh on the physics engine (and to a lesser degree the storage cost of the textures.)

I have done loads of test on this in opensim, and mesh - almost regardless of complexity, including textures and materials, will load and render significantly faster than any sculpt. However, there is an impact on the physics engine and CPU load that can be substantial if the mesh does not have a proper physics model.

There might be differences in how a SL sim server is handling textures that makes the difference, because the opensim server will cache any texture it has seen locally without having to go to the asset server first. Combined with aggressive caching in the viewer this will satisfy the performance requirements of most users unless you move around a lot or have very dynamic environments where large numbers of avatars drop into a sim over a short time. 

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"I want my existing Inventory to be obsolete"

Yes. Assuming mesh upload will still be there (which I don't, necessarily) ...

1. Limts/costs need to apply to attachments.

2. Texture/material load needs to be costed.

3. The one-triangle-at all lower lods trick has to be excluded.

4. Compositing of lo-res ao/light maps with small tiled textures should be possible*.

5. Reuse (instancing) of textures/materials needs to be rewarded.

* Unless realtime shadows and ao become so efficient and effective that everyone uses them.

 

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Jo Yardley wrote:

In case you've missed it;

SL2 is scheduled to go into beta next year and public in 2016;


Betya it doesn't.

LL has never met a self-imposed delivery deadline in eleven years. It's hardly likely to start now with an e-Microsofty at the helm, is it!

"Just an empty fable"

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DesperadoReprise wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:

Thanks. So FB/Oculus came out and said they are going to do a VW for a
billoin
people. I did not hear a peep from anyone here. How
compatibale
will that world be? When will all users run over to that one? Should I invest in SL now that they are donig that...etc.

May I suggest that you at least use the built-in spell-checker before hitting post.

Leaving errors like these in posts makes you appear a foolish foreign ESLer to some, an arrogantly lazy inconsiderate supremacist to others, or even that you are extremely rattled by the widespread opposition that yet another PR faux pas has generated.

"All you bloodthirsty bystanders will you try to find your seats"

 

 

Given up on England in the World Cup already then?

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

 

5. Reuse (instancing) of textures/materials needs to be rewarded.

Yes, especially this. The size of images bites us so many different ways, but reuse mitigates the effect on both network lag (wherever the bottleneck) and graphics card (and cache) memory.

(This is way more important than a slightly analogous "reuse" of script code segments, about which there was much unnecessary fuss, back when script memory limits were a real prospect.)

(Incidentally, Gavin, I'd judge the chance of Sculpts being importable as-is to the new world to be next to zero. But that doesn't mean that everyday Mesh should get in automatically, either.)

Oh, that reminds me, speaking of re-use: Can we please, please un-nerf the internal representation of mesh such that the model and the instance aren't conflated? That is, for a given object in-world, I need to be able to swap in a new model -- change its mesh geometry completely -- without having to rez a different object. Why must mesh be the one object type crippled this way?

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

 

Given up on England in the World Cup already then?

Erm, I am not English. But those forums where I have been pointing out English deficiencies seem, for some reason, to have dried up in terms of participation.

Although I was hoping that they would have the cup of aspiration dashed from their lips at as late a point in the final group game as possible. It's a form of BDSM on which the English thrive.

The good news is that there is a lot of hysterically branded beer and snacks going at even cheaper prices in the supermarkets now.

And, of course, that the CEO of LL is demonstrating that genes will out. Did you know his father was one of Sweden's top stand-up comics?

"You will never kill the  pain"

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

Why could LL not make a statment like the one of the Firestorm blog?

When i say statment i mean a writen one on sl website / blog


Probably for the same reasons that Firestorm wrote a statement pleading with people not to abandon SL.

Mainly self-interest, and a desire to screw as much out of the naive current user base as possible,  before its demise.

"Sooner or later"

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Dear Linden Lab follies,

your announcement certainly is among the worst shaped i ever recognised in the (real life) business world. Why? Because it simply lacks any kind of sensitivity towards the people who feed you, who are your customers. How can you even DARE to tell your existiing customer base (content creators as consumers alike) that you plan to shut down the platform in favor of  "developing"(!) a new one without even giving a HINT on the benefits? What the hell will be BETTER there? What are you talking about AT ALL? What is the "spirit of second life" exactly? What exactly will not be backwards compatible? How can you even DARE to threaten paying customers with losing their million dollar investments and gazillion object inventories just because you, the Lindens, decided to come up with a new toy for your own developer pleasure? Sure, something like upgrading a game in the game industry is a common process, but this here is NOT a game. SL is a pile of user created content in any way, and not something which simply can be replaced by ... yes, by WHAT the hell???

How can you expect, after this terribly stupid announcement, that someone will spend a SINGLE dollar more on a doomed platform, while no one knows what is so superfantasticorgasmic great about the follow-up??? Frankly spoken: It would have been better to tell people: "SECOND LIFE WILL BE SHUT DOWN ANYTIME SOON".

Watch out for the Lindex over the coming weeks and prepare for shutting down your office. I doubt that you can run faster as your customers will run. OR clarify and commit yourself to Second Life, its further development and rre-establish the confidence, which you have lost dramatically. Do it soon.

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Ebbe, please try to understand what you are saying..

As YOU stated in the discussion with the 3rd party viewer creators (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-hoXupxXw  - after time code 1:24) , according to YOUR research, the BASE of SL , the economically most important group of SL users, are the content creators, right?

SL is a business, as YOU stated and the BASE of this business are the content creators. OK, if that is the case, and i believe it is, then how can you even consider hitting exactly THAT BASE that hard ? By saying that moving their assets into the new world is NOT A PRIORITY! It may happen , it may not.. but you just dont care as long as your new world will look as good as PlayStation 15..

Can you really not understand that hitting THE BASE OF YOUR BUSINESS , you hit YOUR BUSINESS ITSELF ?

Content creators are not only the professional RL graphic desigers who have their 3D products on their HD and can upload them anywhere, the majority of the content creators (& merchants) are those who buy such products IN WORLD with full permissions and mod them and combine them into something new. They invested millions of lindens over the years and their investment sits in their INVENTORY! Not on their HD coz that's not allowed and not possible.

And even if it was allowed and possible , it would not be legal because these items are licenced for Second Life only. And if SL2 is "another world" then adieu assets.. good bye investment..

Every single day, more than 1 million REAL DOLLARS change hands in Second Life. Since 10 years .. EVERY DAY! Part of it on services and fees but much of it on ITEMS. And those items land in the INVENTORIES. Not only the inventories of content creators but all the millions of inventories of the millions of "usual users". And I do mean millions. Because alts also buy things..

And now you come, out of nowhere, and tell us all, content creators and normal users, that you don't like "old items" and don't want to see them in your new shiny world. And if the effort of moving those assets into that new world would somehow hinder that new world from shining like the sun, then just throw them away .. who cares..

Well.. YOU should care. Because that IS your business!

The Second Life users, be they content creators or not, invested BILLIONS of REAL dollars over the years into THOSE assets, be they full permissions or not, and THIS INVESTMENT kept SL alive and made SL a profitable business.

THIS MONEY is your business! And the items sitting in the inventories of content creators are THEIR BUSINESS. And since content crators are the base of YOUR business, their business is YOUR BUSINESS! Is this really so difficult to understand ?

Can you at least imagine what impact this "announcement" will have (and already started to have) on the SL users of all kind? What degree of uncertainty is spreading over the grid AS WE SPEAK?

At this time there's only a small number of people who heard about it but when everybody will know that their assets may be useless and worthless tomorrow.. who will still want to buy ANYTHING in SL? Will not everybody feel like being ROBBED? And act accordingly?

Over the next 2-3 years that you seem to need till SL2 will go life, will we still have a business if people stop buying? Will YOU still have a business..?

In any case, what I absolutelly need, and I need it NOW, are CLEAR answers to the following questions:

1 - What type of assets are more likelly to be transferable to SL2 and what probably not? (meshes, animations, sculpts, scripts, textures, builds made of normal prims, system clothing ?)

2 - Is SL2 to be considerd "another grid" in which case the TOS of most full permission creators would prohibit the transfer to that grid? If that is the case, could LL speak a word of power and decide that for full permission items that CAN be transfered, the new SL should be considered as the "same grid" ?

3 - Will at least the L$ currency remain the same and will available balances be usable in both worlds?

4 - Will the 2 worlds be connected in any way and will an avatar be able to move from one to another with the same name and profile and groups and friends? And .. some of its inventory..

It's not too late to clarify things and avoid this way a total break down! Clear answers to the above questions (and others) may help a bit..

You say : "we will not sacrifice how good the future product will be because we have to twist ourselves in knots to be 100% backwards compatable".

I say : if you dont twist yourselves in knots to be at least 90% backwards compatable, you won't have a future product. And you will also lose the old one ..

If SL2 is conceived as a "paralel world" and not as a continuation of SL1 then you create an internal COMPETITION which will affect both worlds. Your user base will split in 3! Because it will be already split in 2 when High Fidelity goes on line..

Therefore it may even be worth a thought if a MAJOR UPGRADE to SL is not somehow a better choice than a huge "step forward" into the chaos and destruction..

Mony Lindman

 

 

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Repeating myself, but I have to agree: the more that can be said now to reassure folks about the future, the better for LL's ability to keep paying the bills until BetterWorld is open.

Just now, I got a subscriber offer from a very well known landcaping creator, one I've long respected and not merely for the content he creates. The new (mesh) product comes with Transfer permission or in a more expensive Copy version. Ordinarily, I'd think nothing of spending a bit more and buying that Copy version because, likely as not, I'd eventually want to rez it somewhere new, and who wants to run out and have to go buy more? But now, "eventually" seems less than likely for anything bought in SL, so this landscaping creator is going to get less revenue from me today, and going forward.

It would be different were there some way he could tell me that those copies would come with me to BetterWorld, too.

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I must confess that I am one of those people who do not love SecundLife. And because I do not like SL? It's not that I do not like SL, the truth is that I never understood why I should like to spend hours manipulating an avatar on my pc monitor ... And I must inform you that I never use chat or bought anything in SL. However, 3 or 4 times a month I spent a few minutes to explore new construction in VL. And I think all amazing! And I'm thinking how wonderful it will be when I can get into SL with Oculus VR ... And when that happens I will finally love SL...

 

PS: Excuse me for my bad english :-)

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Repeating myself, but I have to agree: the more that can be said now to reassure folks about the future, the better for LL's ability to keep paying the bills until BetterWorld is open.

.

At this point, I think Ebbe and LL must understand this. It's a message that's been reiterated here, on Twitter, and, I would imagine, at SLU as well. 

There are, I suppose, two possibilities. 

 

 

  • LL can't respond immediately because they just don't know yet what will be portable, and what won't.

     

  • LL won't respond because the news is bad, and they don't want to make things worse than they already are by confirming some people's worse fears.

Take your pick.

And speaking of "worse fears," someone might want to explain to Peter Gray and the Firestorm team that just about the best way to start a "panic" is to tell us not to. ;-)

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Repeating myself, but I have to agree:
the more that can be said now to reassure folks about the future
, the better for LL's ability to keep paying the bills until BetterWorld is open.


Train's already left that station.

"the stage was set"

PS Damn! Laskya already said the same thing in a more prolix fashion while I was checking the - disastrous - cricket score.

PPS I think Peter Gray is "on holiday" . . .

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DesperadoReprise wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:

Repeating myself, but I have to agree:
the more that can be said now to reassure folks about the future
, the better for LL's ability to keep paying the bills until BetterWorld is open.


Train's already left that station.

"the stage was set"

PS Damn! Laskya already said the same thing ni a more
detailed and thoughtful
fashion while I was checking the - disastrous - cricket score.

Fixed it for ya! :-D

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