So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Cristiano Midnight]

So they investigated themselves and found no wrong doing. This is my shocked face 😐

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I could be wearing a Maitreya Flat Chest or Petite (and most usually I am wearing the latter, or Legacy Perky), and simply role play as a teen even if I am most often representing myself as an adult. There's no official "underage designation" here.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I am just not sure what your point is.

What do you mean? People sre still trying to figure out what a child avatar is because it's vague.

That is a bad look on those bodies for someone to roleplay as a child with them is what I'm saying.

It's an adult roleplaying as a child either way it goes, because the body is an adult but they're pretending to be a child.

[Rowan Amore]

14 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Petite isn't teen, people think it is from the states but the average breast size for women Globally is an A cup to a B cup. Not to mention, there are women that do have flat chests so that's not really good enough to condemn them as a child.

There are several body types and not everyone wants to be extra curvy or thicc.

My body irl is a rectangle shape, I don't have a reborn body, on here I make my avatar Hourglass because people don't like my body type.

The petite add on for Maitreya is for the breasts and not overall size.which is why some.people use it for teens.  The flat is also a breast add-on so again, good for tweens.

ETA..I'm not condemning anyone to being a child avatar by using those.  I'm saying you can't designate a child avatar by which body they use.

Edited May 2 by Rowan Amore

[Kylie Jaxxon]

1 hour ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

My first thought was that the standards to which Lindens were being held might have been a little too low.

^This^  It's the overall perception of what people think or see....

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

1 hour ago, Denim Robonaught said:

And then I have an entire adult zone on a moderate sim

Maybe just rethink the idea of mixing adult content and child avatars. It was never a good idea to begin with even if it was allowed.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

That is a bad look on those bodies for someone to roleplay as a child with them is what I'm saying.

Ok, thanks, this is what I thought you were getting at!

So, you're suggesting that no one should be permitted to represent as an under-18 person wearing a body that is generally considered an "adult" body?

I see the point of that, but have no idea how you police it. Most people doing "sexy high school" RP -- which, really, is a form of a*eplay, whatever the justification given -- also explicitly say in their profiles "AVATAR 18+" or something like that, so they have an "excuse" if they get ARed.

Again, someone wearing an adult body (and it needn't even be flat chested or petite) can simply switch back and forth between representing as a teen or an adult by simply saying so. How do you enforce this?

[Branduff Bisnovat]

Looking forward to hearing more about these external partners as well as the specifics of these personnel changes. Some specificity on the "ways we can improve" section would be nice too.

Edited May 2 by Branduff Bisnovat

[Starberry Passion]

9 minutes ago, cocoanuts said:

Given the complexity and sensitivity of this topic, I would like to respectfully inquire about the classification of avatars in Second Life. It's important to ensure clarity and fairness for all users, and I'm hoping to gain insights that can help maintain a positive experience for everyone in the community.

"In the context of Second Life, there seems to be ambiguity surrounding what constitutes a 'Child Avatar.' Specifically, I'm curious about the status of anime avatars, particularly those using M4 anime/ASR AOEN, who are adults. Are they considered Child Avatars? Additionally, what about users who adopt realistic avatars, like LeLUTKA's head, and customize them into cute Japanese/Korean lolita avatars, while still being mature in height and proportions?

Given that height or gender alone aren't sufficient grounds for Governance action, where do the boundaries lie for what's considered a Child Avatar?

Furthermore, what should users do if their avatar is reported as a Child Avatar, despite being an adult? For instance, if someone is using a cute lolita avatar with a Japanese/Korean influence, and they're in an adult setting engaging in adult activities, how should they handle reports from passersby who might misunderstand the context?

Moreover, does residing in an adult sim or having adult-themed furniture in one's home increase the likelihood of being reported as a Child Avatar, even if the user is an adult? How can users navigate these situations to avoid unwarranted bans or reports?" 

Please clearly state the definition of a child avatar." This is how we portray children's avatars" and then give examples of avatars like "toddledoo, TotsiTeen, Tweenster".

I agree with this, this is what I was saying, I wouldn't use lolita though because people twisted that word into something else. Lolita is just a fashion style, but so many see it different because it's cute.

Because cuteness is youthful, Westerners usually see it as child, even though it's not child. Many adults in the East just like being cute adults.

[Innula Zenovka]

As to what constitutes a child avatar, perhaps I may contribute an insight about prosecutions involving indecent images of children under 18 in the UK, something of which I have some professional experience from another life.

The point about parliament fixing the age as 18, even though our age of consent is 16, is that, unless the prosecution can prove the identity and birth date of the subject of the photograph, it's up to the jury whether they can be sure or not that the subject wasn't 18 at the time the photograph was taken.     Since a juror can't be sure that the image isn't of a young-looking 18-year-old rather than of mature-looking 16 or 17 year old,  there won't normally be a prosecution when that doubt exists.

It's only when the police and prosecutors feel confident that jurors will take one look at the photograph and say "no way is s/he  18" that there's chance of a prosecution.

I would hope LL will take a similar common-sense attitude to enforcement. 

Edited May 2 by Innula Zenovka

[Angelina Sinclair]

As someone who's admin for a few adults sims in the past, this is a policy update clarification that was strongly needed. There are people who push the line of what is and isn't allowed forcing staff on sims to be the bad guys when they really don't want to be.

However I already see the loopholes in this clarification page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

It's the particular phrasing of certain parts where the policy says "child avas" instead of minors.

The main issue I faced in the adult sims I worked for was people showing up in teenage avatars, not child ones. When talking to these people they thought they were fine because weren't child avas and therefore should be allowed on the sim. You can imagine how telling someone to change their ava to be allowed on the sim can cause a lot of strife and arguments.

So I hope the governance team might see this and consider this in any future policy updates/clarifications.

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

6 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

So they investigated themselves and found no wrong doing. This is my shocked face 😐

At my RL business we did an investigation or 2.  One of them nothing happened.  Other was one of the vendors who did an illegal install of a proggy on one of office computers and our daughter noticed it right away. We investigated and sent the vendor packing.

[Starberry Passion]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, thanks, this is what I thought you were getting at!

So, you're suggesting that no one should be permitted to represent as an under-18 person wearing a body that is generally considered an "adult" body?

I see the point of that, but have no idea how you police it. Most people doing "sexy high school" RP -- which, really, is a form of a*eplay, whatever the justification given -- also explicitly say in their profiles "AVATAR 18+" or something like that, so they have an "excuse" if they get ARed.

Again, someone wearing an adult body (and it needn't even be flat chested or petite) can simply switch back and forth between representing as a teen or an adult by simply saying so. How do you enforce this?

Idk what you mean, 18 is adult the last time I checked, unless it's now changed. Also

I'm saying that they should not even be able to say or pretend to be a child.

If they are adult, they shouldn't be able to say "Oh hey, I'm a child, I'm 10 years old" ect. Only 18+ for adult bodies that have access to add ons.

[Madi Melodious]

The modesty requirement is ridiculous if you are wearing cloths or have nothing under the body.  It breaks years of content and makes the investments in people avatars now worth less

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i don't think it is ... with adult items on M i'd not let my avi go afk anymore  .... that's what happened quite some times in the past on "afk" places.. ánd quite some people got in trouble there.

Yet another reason for 'mod' furniture.

If it's mod, put in the AVsitter security script, and set access to group. No one can use your furniture unless they're in the group. Done.

Any furniture in my Linden homes has that, or is something I missed finding in my last check (which likely means it's something I don't use and only think of as decor). Sometimes I just edit the AVpos notecard and remove the adult items from the menus. I go back and forth on what kind of content I want in my SL so I'll remove them one week and put them back the next - this why I use the security script as that at least is something I stay consistent on.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

The main issue I faced in the adult sims I worked for was people showing up in teenage avatars, not child ones.

Yes, this.

On the other hand, because a*eplay involving teens is less obviously in violation of rules and statutes -- in other words, there's a kind of plausible deniability -- I suspect that LL is less concerned about it. And, recognizes too that it is much more difficult to enforce.

Suppose someone is, to use the example I've given above, is engaged in having sex with their high school teacher. They are ARed, but protest that their profile clearly states that they are 18 or older -- and the reason that they are still in the 11th grade, apparently, is that they failed a lot. All part of the RP, right? 😏

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Again, someone wearing an adult body (and it needn't even be flat chested or petite) can simply switch back and forth between representing as a teen or an adult by simply saying so. How do you enforce this?

Exactly. I'll also add that some do use adult bodies + flat addons very intentionally, as there really isn't a whole lot of content specifically for teens to use otherwise.

And to clarify, I'm only talking about the roleplayers who are honest and up front about their in-character age (whatever it may be) for G-rated roleplaying purposes (family, school RP, teen drama plotlines, Shakespeare plays, etc.). I'm not talking about the ones who purposefully skirt the rules with the "but I'm really 18, teeheee" profile shenanigans. 

If this results in more content for avatars that are too mature to be called "child avatars" and too teen to be fully adult and allows them to adequately follow the new rules without worry come June, that could be a good thing.

[Persephone Emerald]

33 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

That's actually a MAJOR change.

That Child AVs were previously allowed on Zindra and other A places was a big point of contention back when Zindra was being announced with lots of anger on both sides. That was what... 15 years ago?

I can think of some venues, even right in downtown Zindra, that effectively now must close and finally move to G land. There was a spot I spent some time in 2023 wanting to buy, but chose not to because the adjacent plot was a 'kids playground' and I felt weird 'acting A rated' even on 'A land' with that "next door".

More land for sale on Zindra would be a good thing for those who want to move there.

[AmeliaJ08]

Attacking the users to be seen to be doing something.

Let us not forget what has caused this apparent need to be seen to be doing something...

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

More land for sale on Zindra would be a good thing for those who want to move there.

You know that will last all of 3.1 seconds before a land baron is selling it for 80,000L per sqm.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

I'm saying that they should not even be able to say or pretend to be a child

The only way you'll know for certain that they are RPing as a teen is if they tell you they are. That's VERY different from someone wearing a purpose-created child, tween, or teen body, where your appearance makes that incontrovertibly obvious.

So, let's say that I am wearing a Maitreya Petite. Am I likely to walk into a club, and announce to everyone that I'm RPing as a 16 year old?

Suppose I am challenged? "You're RPing a minor, and shouldn't be here!" I just respond -- "No, I'm not, you can see I'm wearing an adult body."

How are you going to enforce this????

[CaithLynnSayes]

You can't talk about me...

[NymphAspect]

17 minutes ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

As someone who's admin for a few adults sims in the past, this is a policy update clarification that was strongly needed. There are people who push the line of what is and isn't allowed forcing staff on sims to be the bad guys when they really don't want to be.

However I already see the loopholes in this clarification page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

It's the particular phrasing of certain parts where the policy says "child avas" instead of minors.

The main issue I faced in the adult sims I worked for was people showing up in teenage avatars, not child ones. When talking to these people they thought they were fine because weren't child avas and therefore should be allowed on the sim. You can imagine how telling someone to change their ava to be allowed on the sim can cause a lot of strife and arguments.

So I hope the governance team might see this and consider this in any future policy updates/clarifications.

 

As I pointed out earlier, though, there is very little if no objective way to determine if an avatar is 17 vs 18. This is easily done in RL because you have a birthdate and a license and can be verified to be the age you claim - there is no such feature in SecondLife.

Additionally, and people seem to forget this, an 18-year-old person looks EXCEPTIONALLY young by most standards. I had the opportunity to go back to college as an adult learned and I can tell you that a good portion of the 18-year-old freshman students definitely qualified as "teen." Keep in mind, too, that there are, depending on when one's birthday is, 18-year-old High School students. It is literally possible, at least in the United States, to legally get into the pron industry and still be a High School student.

Trying, therefore, to make some kind of objective ruling about avatars that sit around that blurry line between adult and minor, is nearly impossible. I don't really know what the answer is.

Edited May 2 by NymphAspect

[Maitimo]

46 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Private islands can change their rating, ad far as I know. I was in a roleplay sim that changed the maturity ratings on some of the regions several times back and forth.

True, but only on the whole region at once, not parts of it. A parcel owner can make their own rules for their particulat venue as long as it's not more lenient than the overall region rating. Thus, you can't have a parcel on a Moderate region and allow activity as though it's A-rated.

[Starberry Passion]

6 minutes ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

As someone who's admin for a few adults sims in the past, this is a policy update clarification that was strongly needed. There are people who push the line of what is and isn't allowed forcing staff on sims to be the bad guys when they really don't want to be.

However I already see the loopholes in this clarification page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

It's the particular phrasing of certain parts where the policy says "child avas" instead of minors.

The main issue I faced in the adult sims I worked for was people showing up in teenage avatars, not child ones. When talking to these people they thought they were fine because weren't child avas and therefore should be allowed on the sim. You can imagine how telling someone to change their ava to be allowed on the sim can cause a lot of strife and arguments.

So I hope the governance team might see this and consider this in any future policy updates/clarifications.

 

What about adult women who look like 

Inori Minase | Japanese (28 years old):

Or like 

Shin Jae-Eun Korean (32 years old)

 

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Idk what you mean, 18 is adult the last time I checked, unless it's now changed. Also

I'm saying that they should not even be able to say or pretend to be a child.

If they are adult, they shouldn't be able to say "Oh hey, I'm a child, I'm 10 years old" ect. Only 18+ for adult bodies that have access to add ons.

Which seems wrong.  You're insisting that anyone who wants to play 15, 16 or 17 must now use a specific body with less content available instead of using Maitreya.  I doubt anyone or very few that are  playing a 10 yr old are using Maitreya.  As long as the avatars portraying under 18 stay out of adult areas, it should be ok to wear an 'adult' body.  I often see teens when out shopping using Maitreya and Prim.   Very few using tweenster because...available content.  18K apparel for tweenster.  Million and a half for Maitreya.