Introducing Senra Avatars... what do you think?

[Jaylinbridges]

53 minutes ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

Are we supposed to make our own alpha layers?

You need to use the INCLUDED alpha layers with the clothing in their library.  Most so called fitted mesh clothing needs alpha cuts or alpha layers if you try a good dance animation.  Lots of Maitreya made clothing for the Maitreya default shapes still need the alpha cuts.  Unless all you do is pose for pictures, and stand around motionless, that's why there is the alpha cut in their HUD.  And if you try to change the shapes on a commercial body, then you will for sure need to use alpha layers unless you are as skinny as a skeleton.  I don't understand the opposition to alpha layers in this forum.  Of course you can also wear BOM clothing and avoid the punch thru issue.

[Jaylinbridges]

5 hours ago, Vanity Fair said:

One thing I really do like about the Senra Blake and Jamie bodies is that they allow for a wide range of gender expression, since the wardrobe and hairstyles are unisex (see the first pictures for examples). For example, you can essentially zero out the breasts on the Jamie if you prefer a flat-chested look.

I see no difference between the Blake and Jamie heads.  When I saw your first pic of Jamie in the pink dress, I thought it was Blake in his pink dress.  I hope they introduce other mesh bento heads for Senra that are not so unisex that those who want to look like rugged men will not be forced to used the old system avatars in the Library.   Can you imagine a muscular biker guy in RL (because they have muscles from doing outside jobs other then punching the keys on their smartphone) trying to make a biker out of Blake?

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Qie Niangao]

48 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I don't understand the opposition to alpha layers in this forum.

They're better than alpha cuts, certainly, except a lot of people are accustomed to toggling visibility of mesh faces in a HUD, and have a wardrobe of clothes from creators who learned their craft pre-BOM, so… yeah: Lack of the alpha-cuts kludge has been the ruination of some fine mesh bodies.

My big gripe is that the alpha masks with Senra clothes are no-mod and come without the underlying textures—and aren't even that good. It's possible that the clothes are so poorly fitted that no alpha-mask can be created for them under normal shapes and animation conditions, but that's no excuse for hiding the alpha mask maps as if they're the crown jewels of intellectual property.

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I don't understand the opposition to alpha layers in this forum.

If anything those forums are very "pro alpha layers" and I've seen some posters actually saying how everyone should just do own BoM layers while forgetting the fact that average SL users often have difficulty to put a few objects (clothing/accessories etc) together, many still struggle even after a decade(s) here. And many people here are so invested that they also forget that with just a few hours online each week making own BoM layers is just out of question for most people.

But in either case SL forum always has been in its own bubble. SL forum/forumites: alpha cuts bad, high complexity bad (while 4/5 of the forum didn't/don't have a slightest clue how current useless current complexity calculation formula is, which was shown recently in a thread here, and apparently many also just refuse to understand it even after it was explained to them), complex meshes bad, HD layers (and layers in general) bad; and so on. The rest of SL: continues to enjoy their 700k polys hairstyles, bodies with alpha cuts, and 2GB VRAM skyboxes.

----

I never posted here what I actually think about those new Senra bodies, aside of a link to the dev kit on the first page. I didn't expect anything nice from those avatars, unlike some people around these forums, and still they are pretty terrible.

Better than ancient pre-mesh avatars? Sure. Would/will I suggest a new SL user to swap from those to something better right away if they'll be sure they want to stay around SL for a bit? Absolutely. So in that sense it changes nothing, but perhaps they'll scare a bit less people away than pre-mesh default avatars. Especially if the pictures from the first page is not a default look/outfit for those.

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

Are we supposed to make our own alpha layers?

Yes.

Or rather, the makers of the clothes are supposed to make the alpha layers too. This is part of the BOM concept and not specific for Senra. It's just that it's so much more critical for Senra since the clothes that come with them are so poorly rigged, if they are rigged to the body at all, and there are no alpha cut workarounds.

Edited August 3, 2023 by ChinRey

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I don't understand the opposition to alpha layers in this forum.

The opposition is even stronger among fashionistas in-world.

I think it's partly habits. People are used to use alpha cuts by now but they've forgotten how to use alpha layers. But if I understand right (I can't even remember last time I bought any clothes for my SL avatars so I don't really know) many clothes makers don't even include alpha layers in their packages or if they do, they're so off they're not really usable. We can't really expect the average SL'er to make their own alpha layers.

When it comes to performance, alpha cuts add a lot to the render load but they do that regardless of whether they are used or not. Using the cuts will actually reduce the lag slightly. All mesh bodies before Senra have alpha cuts anyway so when it comes to lag, we might as well use them.

[Istelathis]

From a slightly noobish perspective, especially when it comes to mesh I think it is pretty good in concept.  I am far from as knowledgeable as all of you are, but this is an inexpensive way to learn the basics of mesh bodies.  This is the first mesh head I've had that I have enjoyed (had a ruth head, but it had problems), and will likely play around with different ways to play around with sliders, eventually find a skin that I like as well as makeup using BOM.  I'll look up different AOs for the face, to see if I can get some animations that will be used. The body I will probably not use, because I have a lara I purchased about a year ago and have no need.

I hope it will be good for new users, who do not want to invest a lot of money, to experiment around with Mesh without spending a small fortune in trying to find exactly what they want.  It hopefully will be adopted by the mentors, and used to teach noobs the very basics of mesh and what can be accomplished on a budget before the noobs move on to more sophisticated mesh bodies.  

Previous to this, I only had the mesh ruth body to use, and while I find it to be nice there were a variety of different versions out there, and not very much information.  Hopefully, having an SL standard will make it easier on new users, and be their first step toward achieving a look they want.  

Edited August 3, 2023 by Istelathis

[Vanity Fair]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I see no difference between the Blake and Jamie heads.  When I saw your first pic of Jamie in the pink dress, I thought it was Blake in his pink dress.

 

Actually, BOTH pictures I posted were of the Blake mesh body in the pink dress: same Blake head, same Blake body. It was just different body shapes, and different AOs. Although, now that you mention it, the head skins on both the Jamie *and* Blake heads do look very similar (although the body skins are obviously different). Likewise, BOTH pictures were of the same Jamie body in the navy blue suit—again, different body shapes and different AOs. I just wanted to show how the bodies responded to the sliders, and that it was pretty easy to express different kinds of gender identities and body types. I'm still not happy about the toothpick arms on the Jamie body, though; they don't respond as well to the body sliders as the legs do.

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's bizarre to me that they go out of their way to blur gender lines with these avis . . . and then use an AO that uses such an awful stereotypical "woman" animation.

At least it doesn't have her batting her eyelashes and giggling idiotically, I guess.

How many of us remember the days when every female avatar had to have a "sexy walk" AO? Sometimes they had click-click heels or walking music too.

[Chic Aeon]

3 hours ago, animats said:

I thought they closed. Did someone take it over?

The last we heard here on the forums was that LL was leaving it there. It looks exactly the same as far as I can tell. So nothing about anyone taking it over. Since the things there are free if there are no changes all should be good. I didn't look up at the shops if they were still there. Those I think were paid rentals but maybe not.     Lots of chatter no follow up by LL.  

ALSO I haven't seen a thing about who won the birthday raffle stuff. That seems odd also.   

 

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

The opposition is even stronger among fashionistas in-world.

I think it's partly habits. People are used to use alpha cuts by now but they've forgotten how to use alpha layers. But if I understand right (I can't even remember last time I bought any clothes for my SL avatars so I don't really know) many clothes makers don't even include alpha layers in their packages or if they do, they're so off they're not really usable. We can't really expect the average SL'er to make their own alpha layers.

When it comes to performance, alpha cuts add a lot to the render load but they do that regardless of whether they are used or not. Using the cuts will actually reduce the lag slightly. All mesh bodies before Senra have alpha cuts anyway so when it comes to lag, we might as well use them.

It's really not hard to understand.  Alpha cuts gives the user a quick and easy way to configure their own alpha areas.  Wearing an alpha mask does not.

The only easy part about alpha masks is wearing them and so they win if you get exactly what you need but in a very high number of cases that isn't true for a lot of people who like many different styles of clothes, especially women.

Missing or badly made alphas are very common and means the user has to resort to making their own if they are capable.  Even if they are capable they end with thousands of alpha mask assets in their inventory of which many are one offs and it's nowhere near as quick as clicking the predefined areas on the HUD, ever.

The introduction of batched draw calls have pretty much eliminated the concerns around drawing performance.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[ChinRey]

52 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

The introduction of batched draw calls have pretty much eliminated the concerns around drawing performance.

Consolidated draw calls didn't work for fitted mesh last time I checked but that's a while ago. Has this been fixed recently? The big issue with alpha cuts was the many draw calls. If LL has sorted that out, there shuldn't be any problem with them.

[Jaylinbridges]

I finally brought Blake back to the SL grid.  His alpha layers were not being removed and they would not go back to inventory in Aditi.   I made a short video of Blake doing the Twist (no music) just to show why you need to use the alpha layer included with the top Hoodie or Tshirt. See the skin breaks on his backside.  Blake has a fine sense of  color matching. 😚

 

https://gyazo.com/96d6ce64d58b22e8b26a25d14d4ee756

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 hours ago, animats said:

What, LL made new avatars and clothing for them, and they're not fitmesh? That's kind of lame. Those new avatars should Just Work.

They ARE fitted mesh. It's just that they were made very badly, and just don't work.

The LAST time LL tried giving noobs "Full mesh avatars" were those vamps and zombies" fuglymesh abominations, THOSE were actually released to coincide with the launch of "Fitted mesh", and were not only not fitted mesh, but they couldn't even exchange clothing, each outfit being specifically tailored to the hard wired shape of it's intended starter avatar, and EVERYTHING was no mod.

Eventually, some months later, LL apparently posted that the totally no mod" thing had been a mistake, and they were correcting it. They made the shapes mod, not that thiss made much difference, about all you could really change on the Fuglymesh fail-atars was their height.

 

Why do you think *some* of us have been predicting that SUX Fail-atars would be a fiasco ever since the sneak preview of a male SUX at last years SLB celebration.

All you could see of it was a meh face, a pair of meh hands, some awful hair and a one-size-doesn't-fit-anyone tracksuit/trainers outfit that covered the abomination from the neck down.

Claiming that "SUX was nearly ready" but refusing to actually let people see what it looked like was a massive red-flag, that screamed "nowhere near ready, looks bloody awful, expect a semi working fubar edition release in 12 to 18 months, that all sane people will loathe, and that noobs will ditch for a freebie system avi from Free Dove within days if not minutes.

 

 

[rasterscan]

8 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I didn't think it was possible, in 2023, to find avatars this bad. They actualy  look worse than the classic ones

Oh yes ! Thankyou for pointing that out ! I see what you're saying now !

Edited August 3, 2023 by rasterscan

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Consolidated draw calls didn't work for fitted mesh last time I checked but that's a while ago. Has this been fixed recently? The big issue with alpha cuts was the many draw calls. If LL has sorted that out, there shuldn't be any problem with them.

It's always possible I got it wrong.  I remember reading about the batch draw calls improvements that LL made and thought they applied to rigged mesh too.  I'll admit I cannot verify that myself.  It would be a great shame if it isn't for rigged mesh also because it would make a huge difference and I thought that was the point.

If they haven't LL then could fix this and make everyone happy.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Jaylinbridges]

43 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Your track record for being completely wrong just gets longer and longer. NO. I've NEVER worn a "default supplied shape" with any mesh body, and I've never had a problem with "must wear alphas if not an official shape", ever.

I just showed you a video of the default Blake avatar, no slider changes from default from the library, and the mesh tops and bottoms supplied for Blake by SL do need the supplied alpha layers.  So I guess you are completely wrong on that case.  Or you don't notice when light skin breaks through on a black top, when moving.

I've been dealing with Maitreya shapes and skins since they came out.  There are plenty of poorly rigged clothes made for Maitreya, and they absolutely DO need the alpha cut HUD to correct that. 

And of course newbies and oldies will try to wear clothes not made specifically for a mesh body.  The alpha layers or alpha cuts make that possible.

I never said wearing all BOM clothes looked good.  They work for t-shirts inside a mesh open jacket, socks, underpants etc.  All I said was you won't need an alpha layer with BOM clothing, obviously.   But as usual you try to read things that no one said into your replies.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Fionalein]

7 hours ago, animats said:

I thought they closed. Did someone take it over?

Nope it is gone. However a friend of her bought the parcel and rebuildt it. It's a new group and all.

[ChinRey]

43 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I remember reading about the batch draw calls improvements that LL made and thought they applied to rigged mesh too.

That's what I thought too but the Beq posted this on her blog: http://beqsother.blogspot.com/2021/09/why-crowds-cause-lag-why-you-are-to.html

So unless LL has made a fairly major upgrade since then, and I'm sure we would have heard about it if they did, each alpha cut is still a separate draw call.

For those who don't know what a draw call is, each face on each object in a 3D scene, not just in SL but in all OpenGL or DirectX based 3D environments, is drawn as a separate "draw call" by the gpu. Needless to say, each draw call takes quite a lot of time to prepare, the positions of the vertices have to be calculated, the textures and materials have to be loaded from memory and applied to the surface etc. With lots of draw calls this adds up very fast. LL developed a partial fix to this problem, a way to identify and merge faces with identical textures and materials and that helped a lot. Unfortunately this doesn't work with fitted mesh and since each alpha cut is a separate face, each needs its own draw call.

If I understood Animats right, Vulkan has solved this problem but a Vulkan based viewer for SL still seems to be far away in the future.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

That's what I thought too but the Beq posted this on her blog: http://beqsother.blogspot.com/2021/09/why-crowds-cause-lag-why-you-are-to.html

So unless LL has made a fairly major upgrade since then, and I'm sure we would have heard about it if they did, each alpha cut is still a separate draw call.

I came across that too.

The thing is that I recall reading about the batched draw call improvements a long time after the back end of 2021?  My memory seems to think it was more like the mid-to-back end of 2022, certainly not a long ago as 2021.

The problem is that I cannot find the references to what I read.

I'll assume you are right though until/unless I can find a good source citing it.
 

[randakong]

Bom clothes are a joke. Never said old classic as bom clothes.

[Fionalein]

12 minutes ago, randakong said:

Bom clothes are a joke. Never said old classic as bom clothes.

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder...

 

 

...and as we all know beholders have 11 eyes that's a lot of beauty.

 

[Conifer Dada]

11 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I didn't think it was possible, in 2023, to find avatars this bad.

It's not difficult to find worse avatars in SL dance clubs 😁

I still use a classic avatar and I have been saying that NUX might be the time to 'upgrade', as they say. So far, my experimentation with the Jamie body had not convinced me to make the change. It does have smoother, clearer definition it's let down by parts of the shape, however much you play with the sliders.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Conifer Dada

[Ted McGregor]

1 minute ago, Conifer Dada said:

It's not difficult to find worse avatars in SL dance clubs 😁

That's not a fair comparison. You are the best looking system avatar walking about ..

 

[Conifer Dada]

2 minutes ago, Ted McGregor said:

That's not a fair comparison. You are the best looking system avatar walking about ..

 

Thanks 🙂  Even if that's true I still carry the shortcomings of all system avatars. 

What I was trying to say is that many people choose to give their avatars exaggerated proportions and the Senra avs wouldn't look out of place among those.