Casino in Second Life? is Gambling Back?

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

1 minute ago, VenKellie said:

banks are illegal. Gambling is illegal yet LL can get away with this Helios Casino. like WTF?

With the current casino --- they classified it as a "social casino" and the chips aka tokens can not be cashed out for Lindens.

Pretty much like the casino/slot games you download to your mobile. But many of us think the casino is not appropriate for SL.

[Love Zhaoying]

Related, in RL

- History of Pinball: In some states, Pinball was "illegal" until it was shown to be "skill gaming".  Subsequently, some states did not allow "free games" as a result of high scores, and some pinball machines were created (or modified) to only give additional "extra balls".  This is because the "free game" was seen to be a "thing of value".

- Where I live now in Florida, in areas where "casinos" are NOT allowed, they have "Arcades" with games that accumulate "credits".  You used to see in the news how some "Arcade" got in trouble for giving money back to users for the accumulated "credits". I do not know what the local law is currently, or how these "Arcades" operate currently.  (Of course, there are also "Bingo parlors" which operate under their own set of rules. My church used to have a Bingo license.)

- Previously when I lived in Tennessee where "casinos" were NOT allowed, small businesses would have 1 or a few of the "Arcade" machines, that you could redeem "credits" for cash. I don't think that was legal.

Somehow, a lot of the "Social Arcade" situation really reminds me of these RL scenarios.  The difference is, "it's OK" I suppose in part because you CANNOT redeem anything, at all (either "Credits" or "Tokens").

 

[diamond Marchant]

26 minutes ago, VenKellie said:

banks are illegal. Gambling is illegal yet LL can get away with this Helios Casino. like WTF?

It is possible that Helios Casino is simply a demonstration of what Linden Lab could offer to casino operators in US states where online casino gambling appears to be legal. The fact that online gambling is legal anywhere in the US is news to me. I discovered this in a NY Post article dated January 9, 2023.

As others have said, Helios Casino, perhaps, does not meet the definition of gambling that most use, as one cannot win anything.

I speculate that Linden Lab might have some legal exposure for false or deceptive advertising, if one considers a Destination Guide entry or a tweet to be advertising. Also, "casino" is defined as "a public room or building where gambling games are played".

Hey @Patch Linden, we think somebody has some 'splaining  to do.

Edited May 13, 2023 by diamond Marchant
usual typos

[Rick Nightingale]

6 hours ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

I came back today to see if the tokens stack so far they do ...do not know if daily tokens stack tho! So maybe at least people are able to collect them for a while?

I wondered that too, although I've no real interest in the place.

Perhaps we should have a get-together there when we all have enough to play on the high stakes table? I'll start collecting. Poker's more my game (well actually it's Pirate Fluxx) but I can handle blackjack.

Gambling never was my thing though; my trips to the casino really were to take advantage of the complementary food and drinks, and enjoy watching the local Chinatown restaurant owners gamble away the stacks of money they piled up on the tables. I played roulette once, lost £20, and that was that. My employer at the time had company membership for entertaining clients so we got free access. Personally I preferred the health club though with its underground, Roman-style swimming pool, steam room, etc. Working there had its perks.

[Claireschen Hesten]

11 minutes ago, VenKellie said:

banks are illegal. Gambling is illegal yet LL can get away with this Helios Casino. like WTF?

Its a casino experience, not a real casino if you win the 10k jackpot on a 2 chip slot with your 500 starter chips you can't cash it out as L$10k or however much a potential chip to L$ cash out rate could be. If you run out of free chips you can buy up to L$9.999 worth of chips for the time being you'll never be able to turn back in to L$

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Related, in RL

- History of Pinball: In some states, Pinball was "illegal" until it was shown to be "skill gaming".  Subsequently, some states did not allow "free games" as a result of high scores, and some pinball machines were created (or modified) to only give additional "extra balls".  This is because the "free game" was seen to be a "thing of value".

- Where I live now in Florida, in areas where "casinos" are NOT allowed, they have "Arcades" with games that accumulate "credits".  You used to see in the news how some "Arcade" got in trouble for giving money back to users for the accumulated "credits". I do not know what the local law is currently, or how these "Arcades" operate currently.  (Of course, there are also "Bingo parlors" which operate under their own set of rules. My church used to have a Bingo license.)

- Previously when I lived in Tennessee where "casinos" were NOT allowed, small businesses would have 1 or a few of the "Arcade" machines, that you could redeem "credits" for cash. I don't think that was legal.

Somehow, a lot of the "Social Arcade" situation really reminds me of these RL scenarios.  The difference is, "it's OK" I suppose in part because you CANNOT redeem anything, at all (either "Credits" or "Tokens").

 

Copying my post to add what I missed saying:

If this were "Real Life", what LL has created in Second Life as "Helios" / "Social Casino" would be called an Arcade, NOT a Casino.

 

[elleevelyn]

i haven't been yet myself but when I get a time I am going to check out the blackjack table

to find out whether the blackjack game is a ripoff or not

a ripoff blackjack game is where the cards are reshuffled after each hand. When so then the house edge is about 5% depending on the game play rules. And as such is super greedy going on robbery

pretty much most real casinos world-wide follow the gameplay rules developed by Harrahs. Which are

- Dealer hits 16 or less and stands on 17 or more (including soft 17 or more)
- Player blackjack hand pays 3 to 2
- Dealer declares own Blackjack hand before players turn (no further hand play)
- Player can split pairs upto 3 times
- Player can double-down on any 2 cards including split pair hands

- Casino uses a 6 deck shoe where at least 2/3rds of the shoe is dealt

and when we play basic blackjack strategy, in terms of hitting/standing, splitting pairs and doubling down

then we obtain an about 0.6% advantage(60 cents per 100 dollars bet) when we also use the basic card counting and betting strategy

when the card count is +4 bet 4 or more chips. When the card count is less then +4 bet 1 chip

card counting. count +1 when 2,3,4,5,6 dealt. count -1 when A,K,Q,J,10 dealt. Ignore cards 7,8,9

there are more sophisticated card counting strategies that can yield upto 1% for the player. But +0.4% is way better than -5%

so when I get a time then I will go and clock the cards and see what kind of game is currently being offered

if is a Harrahs game then I probably go and play just to see how many tokens I can accumulate. If is a game of robbery then pfft !!

 

ps. If it was me (which it isn't) but if it was then I would offer poker ring games. Where there is always a House AI bot player at the table to play against at anytime to keep the game going (probably only 4 chairs to keep the lag down). When another player sits the table and buys in then the House Bot sits out

if the goal is to encourage social engagement then is nothing more social from a game perspective than to scump another players chip stack. Even better is scumping a house bot's chips, as most poker AIs are dumber than a rock

pps. Probably have to set the House Bot to only play limit poker when it is in the game. To keep the scumping down

but the game can change up to No Limit when is only players, with fixed amount buyin and unlimited rebuys. In this game,  people will rebuy chips for real money. As they want to try to get back their chips from the other players. And when they don't get back their chips then they mind losing less (even when they can mouth off sometimes) as they lost to another person and not some mindless souless Linden machine

, 

Edited May 13, 2023 by elleevelyn
typs

[Rat Luv]

18 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

i haven't been yet myself but when I get a time I am going to check out the blackjack table

to find out whether the blackjack game is a ripoff or not

It wouldn't be hard to script a blackjack dealer bot to regularly push, or come up with 20 or 21 if the player has 19, would it?  It will definitely be rigged against the player!

Another reason I'd rather just play poker with other residents...

[Gwin LeShelle]

1 hour ago, Rick Nightingale said:

I wondered that too, although I've no real interest in the place.

Perhaps we should have a get-together there when we all have enough to play on the high stakes table? I'll start collecting. Poker's more my game (well actually it's Pirate Fluxx) but I can handle blackjack.

Gambling never was my thing though; my trips to the casino really were to take advantage of the complementary food and drinks, and enjoy watching the local Chinatown restaurant owners gamble away the stacks of money they piled up on the tables. I played roulette once, lost £20, and that was that. My employer at the time had company membership for entertaining clients so we got free access. Personally I preferred the health club though with its underground, Roman-style swimming pool, steam room, etc. Working there had its perks.

I honestly get bored too easily by such things like gambling, and the atmosphere in such establishments is also not mine. So I never really understood the attraction either XD 

[elleevelyn]

1 minute ago, Rat Luv said:

It wouldn't be hard to script a blackjack dealer bot to regularly push, or come up with 20 or 21 if the player has 19, would it?  It will definitely be rigged against the player!

Another reason I'd rather just play poker with other residents...

it isn't hard at all to script a cheater game. Is a pretty stupid thing for any game operator (particularly a Linden) to do though. As clocking the cards (comparing the card distribution against the expected)  over even a small run of dealt cards will soon show up any dealer cheating

[Sid Nagy]

45 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

it isn't hard at all to script a cheater game. Is a pretty stupid thing for any game operator (particularly a Linden) to do though. As clocking the cards (comparing the card distribution against the expected)  over even a small run of dealt cards will soon show up any dealer cheating

Who cares if professionals can find out? They don't play electronics anyhow. They go to RL casinos.
And besides "there's a sucker born every minute" - PT Barnum(?)

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, elleevelyn said:

i haven't been yet myself but when I get a time I am going to check out the blackjack table

to find out whether the blackjack game is a ripoff or not

a ripoff blackjack game is where the cards are reshuffled after each hand. When so then the house edge is about 5% depending on the game play rules. And as such is super greedy going on robbery

pretty much most real casinos world-wide follow the gameplay rules developed by Harrahs. Which are

- Dealer hits 16 or less and stands on 17 or more (including soft 17 or more)
- Player blackjack hand pays 3 to 2
- Dealer declares own Blackjack hand before players turn (no further hand play)
- Player can split pairs upto 3 times
- Player can double-down on any 2 cards including split pair hands

- Casino uses a 6 deck shoe where at least 2/3rds of the shoe is dealt

and when we play basic blackjack strategy, in terms of hitting/standing, splitting pairs and doubling down

then we obtain an about 0.6% advantage(60 cents per 100 dollars bet) when we also use the basic card counting and betting strategy

when the card count is +4 bet 4 or more chips. When the card count is less then +4 bet 1 chip

card counting. count +1 when 2,3,4,5,6 dealt. count -1 when A,K,Q,J,10 dealt. Ignore cards 7,8,9

there are more sophisticated card counting strategies that can yield upto 1% for the player. But +0.4% is way better than -5%

so when I get a time then I will go and clock the cards and see what kind of game is currently being offered

if is a Harrahs game then I probably go and play just to see how many tokens I can accumulate. If is a game of robbery then pfft !!

 

ps. If it was me (which it isn't) but if it was then I would offer poker ring games. Where there is always a House AI bot player at the table to play against at anytime to keep the game going (probably only 4 chairs to keep the lag down). When another player sits the table and buys in then the House Bot sits out

if the goal is to encourage social engagement then is nothing more social from a game perspective than to scump another players chip stack. Even better is scumping a house bot's chips, as most poker AIs are dumber than a rock

pps. Probably have to set the House Bot to only play limit poker when it is in the game. To keep the scumping down

but the game can change up to No Limit when is only players, with fixed amount buyin and unlimited rebuys. In this game,  people will rebuy chips for real money. As they want to try to get back their chips from the other players. And when they don't get back their chips then they mind losing less (even when they can mouth off sometimes) as they lost to another person and not some mindless souless Linden machine

, 

Thank you for the very detailed lesson!

[Skyler Pancake]

7 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

It is possible that Helios Casino is simply a demonstration of what Linden Lab could offer to casino operators in US states where online casino gambling appears to be legal. The fact that online gambling is legal anywhere in the US is news to me. I discovered this in a NY Post article dated January 9, 2023.

As others have said, Helios Casino, perhaps, does not meet the definition of gambling that most use, as one cannot win anything.

I speculate that Linden Lab might have some legal exposure for false or deceptive advertising, if one considers a Destination Guide entry or a tweet to be advertising. Also, "casino" is defined as "a public room or building where gambling games are played".

Hey @Patch Linden, we think somebody has some 'splaining  to do.

It's possible they are planning to roll out actual online casinos, but doubtful. It'd be extremely difficult for them to ensure access is restricted to only the state it's created for. It would be interesting though if they were able to pull it off and offer actual gambling that allowed for payouts.

The issue most of us have with Helios Casino is not that it's gambling, but that it's fake gambling without any reward while still taking peoples money. If it was 100% free to play, it'd be fine. If it had an actual payout, it'd be fine. If they simply took additional steps to inform people you can not payout and to offer resources for gambling addiction, it'd be fine.

Seriously, I'd be happy if they just changed the auto-hud greeting you see when you TP in to start with a gambling addiction awareness and helpline page that you had to acknowledge before you can play. It would also greatly reduce LL's liability in case someone does try to sue them over the casino. I'm amazed their lawyers allowed them to get away with the tiny little sign that they have for gambling addiction.

Also, be careful tagging Lindens. Apparently that in combination with other attempts to talk with Linden employees is considered annoying and a form of harassment, which can result in being banned.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

26 minutes ago, Skyler Pancake said:

Seriously, I'd be happy if they just changed the auto-hud greeting you see when you TP in to start with a gambling addiction awareness and helpline page that you had to acknowledge before you can play.

This, and modify the payment structure for chips that is currently designed to encourage really large investments of Lindens to get "good value" for your chip purchases. Or, better still, either limit the amount you can spend per day, or make it entirely free.

[Skyler Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This, and modify the payment structure for chips that is currently designed to encourage really large investments of Lindens to get "good value" for your chip purchases. Or, better still, either limit the amount you can spend per day, or make it entirely free.

The daily limit would be extremely valuable. Currently the high bet slots with max bet is 30k tokens.. And you can buy 30k tokens for 10000L$ or ~$45. They are legit allowing a person to spend $45 for the ability to play one game.

[elleevelyn]

7 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Who cares if professionals can find out? They don't play electronics anyhow

some thoughts on this

in pretty much every game both gambling and non-gambling, including free-to-play, there are always players who look to see if the game is on the level. When it isn't then people soon work it out themselves, and/or read the published proofs

when any game operator is shown to not be on the level then people don't play it in significant numbers to make the game a blockbuster success for the operator

the biggest online game operator cheat is to stack the deck in favour of new players. When you are new to the site then you win more times than you should (statistically speaking). Then as time goes by, your win rate drops back to within the standard deviation

people pick up on this when it happens. They think, if the game was not on the level when I first started playing then how can I be assured that the game is on the level now that I am not winning at the same rate I was earlier. And people are never assured as the game operator will never confirm that they are a running a game which is not on the level to induce new players

so my advice to any Casino Linden who maybe / maybe not read this, is to never go down this slippery shady road. As when you do then it drives ordinary people away, and it encourages player bot farmers posing as new accounts to frequent your establishment, just for the lols because they can

 

[diamond Marchant]

3 hours ago, Skyler Pancake said:

The issue most of us have with Helios Casino is not that it's gambling, but that it's fake gambling without any reward while still taking peoples money.

Isn't this evidence that the region is intended to be a demo? Isn't the game play the same on all the tables/slots? Won't tire kickers just switch to lower stakes when their chips run low? Or switch to another platform/app that has similar free games?

Aren't the ATM machines simply a working demo of an ATM machine (didn't actually try one... do they work?)

Will anyone pay for something that is free?

Finally, why do we assume that this is intended for Second Life? Linden Lab could deploy Casinos on another grid.

[cirleen]

 

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

Isn't this evidence that the region is intended to be a demo? Isn't the game play the same on all the tables/slots? Won't tire kickers just switch to lower stakes when their chips run low? Or switch to another platform/app that has similar free games?

Aren't the ATM machines simply a working demo of an ATM machine (didn't actually try one... do they work?)

Will anyone pay for something that is free?

Finally, why do we assume that this is intended for Second Life? Linden Lab could deploy Casinos on another grid.

erm .. why would they announce it in that case .. and open access for a experiment? Not likely in my opinion.

If you want to know if the ATM's work .. try the cheapest option i'd say, i'm not going to spend one dime there.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

7 hours ago, Skyler Pancake said:

It's possible they are planning to roll out actual online casinos, but doubtful. It'd be extremely difficult for them to ensure access is restricted to only the state it's created for. It would be interesting though if they were able to pull it off and offer actual gambling that allowed for payouts.

If that was a plan --- maybe they would do a separate platform running on a SL type thing and only allow it in the areas that online gambling is legal.  Some did say the lack of comment from the Lab staff --- it's possible they're collecting feedback from the mboards and how many are visiting the casino and if anyone is buying the Lindens/Tokens and data from game play.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

Isn't this evidence that the region is intended to be a demo? Isn't the game play the same on all the tables/slots? Won't tire kickers just switch to lower stakes when their chips run low? Or switch to another platform/app that has similar free games?

Aren't the ATM machines simply a working demo of an ATM machine (didn't actually try one... do they work?)

Will anyone pay for something that is free?

Finally, why do we assume that this is intended for Second Life? Linden Lab could deploy Casinos on another grid.

Yes

Maybe

Yes

Good idea!

Hmmm..could be..

Great thoughts!!

 

[Sid Nagy]

4 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

If that was a plan --- maybe they would do a separate platform running on a SL type thing and only allow it in the areas that online gambling is legal. 

Don't you need a licence to open up an online gambling website?
Over here on does, to make sure that taxes are payed, the games are not bent towards the advantage of the of the house, no money laundering takes place. I guess in most parts of the world such a licenses are required too where online gambling is legal.
So IMO LL will have to lure in a license too before real gambling can kick in. The easiest way is to partner up with a company that already has the required licenses. Just like Tilia partnered with a bank.

Maybe it is just showcasing where Tilia can step in in the gambling industry.
Who knows.
If the Lab has some other trump cards in their hands, they certainly will not show them to us before they play them out.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Oops, I thought it was Saturday: my edit the text hobby day.

[belindacarson]

12 hours ago, Skyler Pancake said:

so, be careful tagging Lindens. Apparently that in combination with other attempts to talk with Linden employees is considered annoying and a form of harassment, which can result in being banned.

Just out of curiosity did you try an appeal?

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Don't you need a licence to open up an online gambling website?

Don't know but..

I don't think the "Social Casino" is even "gambling", at all! So if LL created websites for the same thing as at Helios..nope. (As said in another post, it's more like an "Arcade".)

[Love Zhaoying]

12 hours ago, Skyler Pancake said:

Also, be careful tagging Lindens. Apparently that in combination with other attempts to talk with Linden employees is considered annoying and a form of harassment, which can result in being banned.

That does sound annoying! They could have been nicer about it. Good to know the protests didn't have anything to do with being banned.

Thanks for the info!