Casino in Second Life? is Gambling Back?

[diamond Marchant]

54 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

How social are "social casino" apps? 

In retrospect, I misundersood the term "social casino" , thinking it meant "community", as this was my Second Life experience... activities that formed a community (e.g. fishing, sailing, flying, charitable fund raising).

Thanks to the informative videos posted in this thread, I now understand "social casino" to mean using the power of big data to target social media users for exploitation of their gambling addictions. "Social casino" is really "targeted casino".

The two components of "targeted casino" are the social media "net" used to capture potential addicts and the "app" that exploits them.

So to my stupid list, I now add a 4th item.

4. Linden Lab, not being true social media with billions of users, has no "targeted casino" net (unless they outsource that).

Edited May 16, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[AzureWaves]

LL could merely be doing data-gathering on SL residents to sell to/or on behalf of a social casino company. They're keeping mum on the whole thing, with no official blog post.

[Persephone Emerald]

6 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

In retrospect, I misundersood the term "social casino" , thinking it meant "community", as this was my Second Life experience... activities that formed a community (e.g. fishing, sailing, flying, charitable fund raising).

Thanks to the informative videos posted in this thread, I now understand "social casino" to mean using the power of big data to target social media users for exploitation of their gambling addictions. "Social casino" is really "targeted casino".

The two components of "targeted casino" are the social media "net" used to capture potential addicts and the "app" that exploits them.

So to my stupid list, I now add a 4th item.

4. Linden Lab, not being true social media with billions of users, has no "targeted casino" net (unless they outsource that).

I think LL is using Facebook and Twitter in the same way that these app "social casinos" do.  Instead of diverting FB and Twitter users to a app though, they're trying to divert them to SL. If the person shows a interest in games, they can show a SL post or ad for a gaming aspect of SL. If they show an interest in fashion, they can show a post or ad for SL avatars and fashion. If they a show an interest in dating, they can show a post or ad about the "romantic" side of SL.

It makes sense for LL to use targeted advertising. I just don't like them targeting potential gambling addicts. 

[Love Zhaoying]

23 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

In retrospect, I misundersood the term "social casino" , thinking it meant "community",

Hmm...in RL, one often goes "to the Casino" with friends..

* Edit * I mean, if one HAS friends..so I've heard..

Edited May 16, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Silent Mistwalker]

 

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

1. Linden Lab is way late to the party on social casino-ing

2. Linden Lab  has the wrong platform for this (and mobile SL doesn't really fix that)

I think this is the big takeaway .. LL out in the wilderness and out of touch. As usual.

I would be thrilled if LL staff just placed a few video games and used their own platform socially.

Can you imagine the gains we would make if they had a company "r&d game days". pop up a minecraft server and then came back to SL .. wow this is janky as all hell, maybe we should work on that.

Lets all go play something fun .. ok back to SL. Well poop.. this is no fun.

Heeeey .. why does every single game we play use this common control language .. and why doesn't SL. 

 

Rather than that. Someone looks at the top junk on the app store and gotta make sure SL has some of that for when the mobile client comes out, because you know, that what people who use apps want!!

 

People WANT to use SL. They sign up. Then they leave and never come back. None of them left because we didn't have a "Social Casino".

 

The real sting is breaking the long held expectation that LL are ethically sound.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

Yes. But the question is not "could we build this thing?", rather, it is "will it be competitive?" 

I think they totally skipped over the question of, "SHOULD we build this thing?"

[Skyler Pancake]

15 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Since social casinos are a popular form of online entertainment, might it not just be that LL's marketing team think that offering a version of a social casino in SL could be a good way of attracting new residents, who may find they prefer the experience of playing these games inworld to on a web page, and who may even, now they've set foot in SL, decide to explore a bit more and start spending more time and money in-world?

That seems to me the simplest explanation, and would explain why the region was launched on Facebook and Twitter.

If this was the core intent, they could have made the entire thing free. A fun, yet free version of a casino would draw in far more interest than one in which you have to pay for. There would ultimately be no profit loss, as new residents will always mean more potential income for them.

9 hours ago, AzureWaves said:

LL could merely be doing data-gathering on SL residents to sell to/or on behalf of a social casino company. They're keeping mum on the whole thing, with no official blog post.

There is a good potential they are doing this. GamGard and GamTalk are owned by the same individual.  GamGard does research on social casino games and such. GamTalk is an extremely unknown gambling addiction support website, but for some reason LL decided to use them as one of two mentions for gambling addiction help.

[Istelathis]

10 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"SHOULD we build this thing?"

After reading the thread and participating in it as well, often being of the mind that people should be responsible for themselves, it was @Jaylinbridgesshared video that I think I may feel LL should not partake in allowing the whales to beach themselves.  I find that frustrating, because I am usually against telling others how they should spend their money, it creates a complete cognitive dissonance from my own ethics.  

I shouldn't be telling others how to spend their money, but then I don't want to see the whales beaching themselves.

 

LL needs to put up some safety measures beyond just a warning sign, because it clearly is not enough for some people.  That kind of sucks, but at the same time, if it were me running this sort of enterprise, I would feel pretty lousy about people ruining their lives using these social casinos.  

On a personal note, I do enjoy the casino, I like to go in get my 120 free tokens, play blackjack and easily earn a few extra, sit at the slot machines and spend those extras hoping to get a spin and either stopping at that point, or stopping when I have lost the tokens I had won, when I'm done I'm left with a 120 extra free tokens for the day.  No linden spent, I wouldn't even consider it from my premium stipend.  But I do enjoy watching others placing high bets at the blackjack table, playing with other people, and also playing the slot machines.  I think it is fun, but only if the people playing are not losing an arm and a leg in the process of it all.

I think of it as being "social" in such a way, it is fun, I enjoy seeing others win and feel bad when I see they have lost.  I like that it draws in a crowd and people seem to be enjoying themselves.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Istelathis

[Skyler Pancake]

26 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

After reading the thread and participating in it as well, often being of the mind that people should be responsible for themselves, it was @Jaylinbridgesshared video that I think I may feel LL should not partake in allowing the whales to beach themselves.  I find that frustrating, because I am usually against telling others how they should spend their money, it creates a complete cognitive dissonance from my own ethics.  

I shouldn't be telling others how to spend their money, but then I don't want to see the whales beaching themselves.

 

I'm generally of the same mindset. As long as someone isn't hurting others, I'm not one to involve myself.

If LL had actually taken proper measures to actively address the potential for gambling addiction, I would have rolled my eyes at the casino and moved on. Simple acts of removing the pay to play feature, requiring you to read and acknowledge gambling addiction awareness before you can play, or even limiting the amount of tokens you can buy per day to something extremely minimal would help appease my concerns.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

I shouldn't be telling others how to spend their money, but then I don't want to see the whales beaching themselves.

 

I am reminded of a "button" / bumper sticker saying from the early 80's: "Nuke Santa Claus and Feed Him to the Whales"!

[Marianne Little]

Coming late to the thread, RL is busy and I have not visited the casino.

So others see your bets and how you play? This sounds addictive for those who want attention. Those who are lonely and want a virtual friend/lover.

"Hey big spender... spend a little time with me".

So people may bask in attention and spend more than they should. The cost of buying new tokens makes me want to scream. We talk real money in real life. I always try to stretch 10 000L as long as I can, here one may blow it on a night.

[Cinos Field]

I went to the casino and uh... I don't get it. You pay real money to play slot machines or blackjack to win fake money that you can't even exchange for token prices.

...so it's purely a "make this number bigger" game, except nobody will even see your number. Absolutely no idea what the target audience for this is. I feel like even addicts want at least shiny prizes.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Cinos Field

[Caitlin Tobias]

24 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

I went to the casino and uh... I don't get it. You pay real money to play slot machines or blackjack to win fake money that you can't even exchange for token prices.

...so it's purely a "make this number bigger" game, except nobody will even see your number. Absolutely no idea what the target audience for this is. I feel like even addicts want at least shiny prizes.

I guess it's the same as why people pay for extras in Candy Crush or games like that. You don't win stuff in those games either.

[Cinos Field]

9 minutes ago, Caitlin Tobias said:

I guess it's the same as why people pay for extras in Candy Crush or games like that. You don't win stuff in those games either.

I think those give you in-game rewards though, like achievements or medals or the like. So I'd have expected this to give out trinkets and trophies to put in your home.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Cinos Field said:

I went to the casino and uh... I don't get it. You pay real money to play slot machines or blackjack to win fake money that you can't even exchange for token prices.

This is a trap for people with addiction issues.

It has no purpose other than to take advantage of a tiny minority that will dump their entire life savings in.

Think that's not you .. spend enough time there and it will be.

 

Focusing on the lack of winnings or cashing out fundamentally misunderstands the nature of gambling addiction. A casino you can't win at, is worse than one you can.

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is a trap for people with addiction issues.

Aren't the "AFK" / "SLex" establishments similar traps for people with "other types" of addiction issues (not gambling)?

ETA: I caught that I almost wrote "addition issues".  But we already know that LL is bad at maths.

[Istelathis]

1 hour ago, Cinos Field said:

I think those give you in-game rewards though, like achievements or medals or the like. So I'd have expected this to give out trinkets and trophies to put in your home.

Think of it more of like an arcade, that does not award tickets for prizes.  Your tokens, are your highscore, and the games cost tokens.  You can draw a small crowd, that may cheer you on or join in on the game with you, but there are no real prizes other than a small boost in dopamine.  That is how I think of it, I enjoy seeing my token number rise and do what I can to ensure it doesn't go lower.  It is the same way when I fish for linden, or play Lindo, even though those award very little in terms of linden, I enjoy watching the number go up while playing the very simple games.

Not something that I would want to spend hours a day doing, more so like a few minutes a day, then off I go exploring SL or playing another game entirely.  

Edited May 17, 2023 by Istelathis

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Think of it more of like an arcade

Exactly what they are called in my part of Florida: "Arcades". 

"Casinos" are something completely different.

[Coffee Pancake]

11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Aren't the "AFK" / "SLex" establishments similar traps for people with "other types" of addiction issues (not gambling)?

No, not at all comparable.

 

[EliseAnne85]

3 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Think of it more of like an arcade, that does not award tickets for prizes.  Your tokens, are your highscore, and the games cost tokens.  You can draw a small crowd, that may cheer you on or join in on the game with you, but there are no real prizes other than a small boost in dopamine.  That is how I think of it, I enjoy seeing my token number rise and do what I can to ensure it doesn't go lower.  It is the same way when I fish for linden, or play Lindo, even though those award very little in terms of linden, I enjoy watching the number go up while playing the very simple games.

Not something that I would want to spend hours a day doing, more so like a few minutes a day, then off I go exploring SL or playing another game entirely.  

Maybe, kind of like arcades, but I think those arcade games have some kind of hand-eye coordination and some people can become very skilled at those but, then again, I guess there is a little skill here unless it is a script that just keeps repeating the same sequence over and over.

Me just touching on gambling and addiction:  I always thought the addiction to gambling and/or betting is that one believes (almost delusional) that they will win one day and win big and be rich!  It's often portrayed in movies that way.  It's like give me the money just one more time, I know this time I'm going to hit it big!  It's a very sad thing overall to lose all one's money until even the house is gone or is in jeopardy of being lost.  

This is a game where no one can win money.  That winning part is gone.  Some say it's like a game Candy Crush which I've heard of that is pseudo-gambling too.  I just don't see how it could be as addictive as the real thing where one can win big and win it all and be rich!  (Yeah, typical movie portrayal) but I've been in Vegas a few times and other Casinos elsewhere and I overhear paying saying "did you hit"..."did you hit".  The thing they seem to want in Casinos is for it to "hit" which means all the bells and whistles go off on the machine and money comes flying out.  And, they keep doing it until they "hit".  Yes, I watched in a Casino my first time because I did not know what to do, so I spied around.  The thing they want is for the machine to "hit"! and hit big! 

This isn't going to do that.

[Rowan Amore]

41 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Maybe, kind of like arcades, but I think those arcade games have some kind of hand-eye coordination and some people can become very skilled at those but, then again, I guess there is a little skill here unless it is a script that just keeps repeating the same sequence over and over.

Me just touching on gambling and addiction:  I always thought the addiction to gambling and/or betting is that one believes (almost delusional) that they will win one day and win big and be rich!  It's often portrayed in movies that way.  It's like give me the money just one more time, I know this time I'm going to hit it big!  It's a very sad thing overall to lose all one's money until even the house is gone or is in jeopardy of being lost.  

This is a game where no one can win money.  That winning part is gone.  Some say it's like a game Candy Crush which I've heard of that is pseudo-gambling too.  I just don't see how it could be as addictive as the real thing where one can win big and win it all and be rich!  (Yeah, typical movie portrayal) but I've been in Vegas a few times and other Casinos elsewhere and I overhear paying saying "did you hit"..."did you hit".  The thing they seem to want in Casinos is for it to "hit" which means all the bells and whistles go off on the machine and money comes flying out.  And, they keep doing it until they "hit".  Yes, I watched in a Casino my first time because I did not know what to do, so I spied around.  The thing they want is for the machine to "hit"! and hit big! 

This isn't going to do that.

But you CAN win...tokens.  It's the winning that seems to be the addictive aspect and not WHAT is won.  You don't win money in Candy Crush either but people still.spend a LOT of money to win levels or whatever.  

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is a trap for people with addiction issues.

 

3 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No, not at all comparable.

Exactly.

The more I learn about this industry in the real world, the more my jaw drops. The amount of money spent worldwide, the amounts being spent by individuals, the quotes from people addicted to the apps, the aggressive marketing tactics these casinos use to rope people in, the way ads are utilized, the AI that goes into finding big spenders, the loopholes casinos use, the lack of regulation, etc. 

From an NBC News article about a certain online casino -

"[Redacting name] of Dallas previously told Reveal News how she spent about $400,000 on the game. She took out a home equity loan and used the money she inherited when her mother died to fund her habit. When she tried to cancel her account on several occasions, [she] said, a "VIP representative" would call her and offer her free chips so she would continue playing."

Ack. 

 

LL could take their casino in a drastically different direction and avoid being associated with all that just by removing the ATM. Make it entirely free with a limited number of chips per day (or introduce fun ways to earn more without money by adding in new dailies, hunts, and activities) and I don't see an issue with it.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

I had my Linden friend (one who told me about SL back in 1956) saying the Casino in world is not much different then those casino/slot games that's been on mobile devices and social nets for eons. Some of the mobile games that lodged a  pop up a window to buy more coins or whatever it uses when you fall below a threshold. Some of those are really bad.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You don't win money in Candy Crush either but people still.spend a LOT of money to win levels or whatever.  

I am constantly reminded of "The Game" in ST:TNG. (Except, it stimulated a person's 'happy' as a "prize".)