Andred Darwin

Maybe you are right, it is what it is though ...

It was not meant to be an insult... I apologize if it did! Peace!

feedback.secondlife.com, I don't disagree with you, you are probably right, my opinion actually would not even matter specially with avatars cause I dont really change my avatar at all... your opinion would matter a lot more I guess... maybe they could change the name from Midday to something else more related to building and use another as Midday... I don't make the rules... I dont know about the old JIRA, but there is not even one "bug report" at feedback.secondlife.com about how the Midday affects the avatar skin rendering yet... I dont they think they will read the forums... Its a lot of "work" to read forum threads sometimes. I'm not sure why I'm getting replied on those things... I'm not saying its perfect... that was just my opinion (be good, be trash, which most likely seems to be... ) I cannot do anything about it... but I can use the recommended channel to report bugs or feedback... everyone here can...

This is my personal experience, but, I've seen many bugs being fixed quite quickly now, some of those where I created the ticket.. and the ones not fixed yet, being actually investigated in-world... (I could not say the same thing a few years ago... also Im not anything special, just a regular SL player... I do try to use the recommended channels to report issues though..) As of feedback, I'm not sure if you use Discord... at the content-features channel as an example, quite frequently the Devs are sharing some new features, sometimes asking for feedback, sharing build areas to test some new features ( in the beta grid as an example, region Rumpus 2048, you can try the new "early builds" with mirrors along with other features... using the viewer from the branch "featurettes"... quite cool actually ) , providing "test viewers" in a quite healthy conversation (no "24 grit sandpaper attitude there")... and things do move forward once you see what they are working on... That was just not possible a few years ago... also I have not seen any company that would do that.. (Devs may not respond or see direct messages though, unless something they were expecting... neither should... or they would go nuts!) Mirrors is another example of something they changed based on feedback (mirrors are really "performance expensive" for any gaming engine and add that to SL, is not an easy task)... several LSL functions were added in past few months, maybe more than a few years in the past... the "performance improvement" since 2021... we dont even need to mention right... (a huge improvement... ) I think its better. back in 16/17... felt more like it was abandoned (probably not true... but that's what felt like).. I'm sure no one can say its perfect, maybe will never be (maybe will always be far from perfect)... but, its great to see its not stagnant... its moving forward... and they seem to be more accessible... I still don't understand why some things that could be called "critical" are not fixed before releasing features... but... its not really up to me to understand is it? All I can do is share feedback... As of forums... I don't believe its the best place to share bugs or offer feedback... specially SL forums, maybe its great to see other users opinions and best bets... even that... quite rare...

Its not a democracy... for good or bad, someone there has to decide what feedback/bug they would work on (its just the way it is) ... and they are the same ones that will "live" with the results, disappointments a part... 20 years is not too bad... remember when we could not even "teleport" back in the day? As users all we can do, is share what we see ( feedback.secondlife.com )... if we think it's important... As of "ignoring feedback", it got much better since the new ownership which is great!

I think you are raising some really good points ... some of those seemed to be worked on right now... I'm sure you would hate the early PBR viewer's from last year, hehehe ... at the same time, it's great to see how much it improved from what it was. Maybe try to use the feedback website ( feedback.secondlife.com ) to share your points, specially that scene where your saw that drop in FPS... I know they look at it (from personal experience), and they can profile the scene, to see if or what could be improved. That is the best tool I think to offer thoughts and in some cases even make a difference, any dev team needs feedback ("24 grit sandpaper attitude" doesn't help though, hehehe ). Just don't expect that whatever you will raise or bring to attention will be either fixed or considered right away (hopefully they will), that is just the way it is.. I'm sure they go through them, and in weekly meetings they decide what would go to the "board" of todo's... (look at github commit's... ), we could not say the same a few years ago.

I respect your opinion that PBR may drive users out of the grid... but I dont believe it will be the case... PBR will be the next step... same it was Mesh back in the day... some also believed it would be the end of SL... here we are... I also respect your opinion that PBR only benefits creators... and that you believe it doesn't look that good, who knows how many will think the same way... I think its awesome... and hopefully it will do the same that mesh did for the grid... I believe trying to balance how legacy items are rendered and PBR will probably be (or already is) the biggest challenge... legacy items will look at bit different (its a new rendering engine)... As of the need of a new PC... that is unfortunate, but depending on the current machine... may well be the case... (I really enjoyed using for quite a long time the machine I had before this one, for almost 7 years... things change... I dont make the rules... In my case, I thought it was worth to replace it, cause I like SL a lot, and took a while to save money for it, and until them, I just used what I had... )

I'm not a big fan of the fact that you would have to pay quite a few bucks for Substance... but.. its well worth depending on the amount of items you want to bring in-world either to sell or use yourself... (I regret to not have used before... Blender is great and is free... but Gee... I can do the same task with a lot more materials within much less time... in fact, now I have some extra time to maybe learn a bit more and improve on this hobby... time saved for me is more valuable... may not be the case for others ) And its not about side... and its not the first time seeing those exchanges... Did anybody said we should not use our preferred EEP settings?

No question (at least until PBR gets integrated somehow to the bake system)... But the new Midday (maybe we are not seeing the same one.. I'm not sure which viewer you are using), on a full PBR scene does a great job...

Your pull request was actually approved! Runitai's comments approving your pull request also makes a lot of sense too, your reply to his comments on the other hand... quite harsh... ("24 grit sandpaper on polished aluminum")... does it really need to be that way? I guess we all like SL and sometimes it goes over our head, I was "flabbergasted" by your reply... hehehe... my point is, you have great feedback, ideas and also a great contributor... maybe consider tone down a bit... the way you argument them. LL's approach seems to be a very good one for that case, making way easier for creators by providing a "default" EEP that can replicate almost exactly what they see while texturing in Substance Painter (recommended software with recommended HDRI settings) allowing others to see it that way too... even if just for bit until they change back to the EEP setting they like the most... aren't their creations one of the main reasons SL passed the 20 year mark? Its not like they are blocking moving clouds.. and most won't use the default Midday anyway... for me that Midday is a big plus, matches pretty close Substance Painter (recommended software with recommended HDRI Env) and with PBR, that Midday is an easy way to show others how a reflection probe or a custom EEP setting may affect the way a specific object/scene renders, it's a standard, its great to plus to have it for full PBR scenes (either called Midday... or Standard PBR or whatever it may end up being called).

Another snap that didnt fit on last post (image size)

In my experience so far... for buildings like houses, etc, if its a "legacy" building... it's better to use an old EEP, and not mix too many objects PBR materials... if its a building with PBR materials and PBR content... you may use a PBR converted EEP, along with reflection probes and lights, its almost a requirement, sounds like a lot... but you may enjoy the result... I think another thing to keep in mind... PBR/Legacy rendering is still being tweaked... and the current viewers (even some Beta ones), dont have the latest code... and in some cases the difference is really noticeable (of course each scene may be different... ) Seems to me, the GLTF-Maint2 branch viewer is the closest to the old 6.6.17 (seem to actually improve most legacy scenes)... but I dont know of any other beta viewer that has that code. The snapshots below show a quite noticeable difference on sky for that scene, same in interiors... taken using the Maint-W, GLTF-Maint2 and latest FS PBR Beta viewers along with the old 6.6.17... (the GLTF-Maint2 and Featurettes branches are said to have the latest dev viewer tweaking rendering)... may be worth a try... (All snapshots are showing the same legacy EEP... and its not a PBR Scene). Either way, seems to be a bit early to change content based on what we see with current PBR viewers...

No I don't know anyone... I didn't even think it was possible.

The "sort of stuttering" while rotating the avatar and transparency handling ( even after converting toggling from alpha blend to alpha mask where possible) are the most annoying thing for me about the new viewer ... not counting how harder it is to setup a full PBR scene with probes, and at lot more lights, and of course, see fps just go down compared to the old engine (we could go by before without lights using EEP only)... right now there is sort of a "honey moon" for most with SL PBR (its always great at the beginning... )... full PBR scenes will come to play... The main goal with that post was not to show a full apples to apples comparison (its just too different anyway, its a different beast), which you are right, even mentioning ways to do it..., thank you for the tips! I just wanted to share the results/readings and my 2 cents using the older card and the new one which I was about to receive, in a way that maybe most users that look at fps may perceive the new rendering engine (login and play). I guess it's cool to know the "technicals", apples to apples, etc, but at the end... it's really login and play.... I had high settings before, still use high settings now... what do I see, what performance, benefits and drawbacks do I get with the new engine, do I need to update my system to enjoy the same way I used to?... (even knowing the final result with PBR is a much improved scene when using PBR materials, use more resources, etc... ). I only increase LOD factor cause I hate to see things deforming a lot when I visit other places... and I never really a noticed much lower FPS running with a value of 4.0 vs the default setting but I do notice all objects rendering without deformation, which is great. I updated all my monitors to 27in @ 1440p @ 165hz from 23in @ 1080p @75hz about a month ago. Using the 75hz ones, I never not noticed any stutter before (of course)... but the RTX 3060 was probably not the best option to run @ 1440p. Does a great job @ 1080p though and for SL PBR @1440p if you limit the fps at the driver control panel, still works great (I dont notice any stutter with the old viewer @ 1440p with the 3060). I was really surprised on how the 4060 TI performed, I was not expecting it, specially after seeing the reviews just bashing it due to the price vs performance gain comparison against its predecessor, the 3060 TI... but @ $320 upgrading from a 3060... for 1440p, I think it was a good deal for me, the worst that would happen... would be to return it... The 11700k seems to do ok with the 4060 TI for SL, some scenes seems to show that a faster processor could push the 4060TI a bit more, but overall it does a pretty decent job I guess... I was not expecting over 30% better fps for SL @ 1440p with the 4060TI and 11700K (a lot more for some scenes, over 50%)..., even when most videos on the internet do show other games with similar performance increase, usually for SL, it used to be a much lower number compared to other games video benchmarks.. I may be able to keep this system for another 3 years until the 6000 series comes out... Anyway, that was the main goal... hopefully helps someone that is choosing an upgraded card to better enjoy PBR or update their system trying to keep budget in mind... I would not have bought the 3060 at the time, even for 1080p if I knew how much of a difference 3060 TI would make for a few bucks more playing SL, in fact, would not even consider buying another one for 1440p today, a forum post with some numbers and other users opinions specific for SL would have helped me make a better choice. Some websites say the 11700K is not fast enough to keep up with the 4060TI, which may be true, but for SL as the main game seems to do a great job .... I'm seeing a much better result with them, more than enough for what I need and saved a couple hundred dollars compared to a 4070 which was my first choice. Also... the 160W TDP for the 4060 TI is probably something to keep in mind...

Adding the same readings now with a RTX 4060 TI instead of RTX 3060. Much faster (of course) and the stutter perception is much lower, but still there (gone if using frame limit of 100 fps). The fps fluctuate a lot more with both viewers.