New Second Life terms and conditions

[Arielle Popstar]

24 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Mmm yes ... PayPal can reject transfers at their discretion. Ditto Venmo, CashApp and pretty much all other similar systems. So too can the BitCoin/similar Crypto exchanges.

If you've got a problem with this and you use any of the above services or similar ... You haven't a leg to stand on.

At all.

ETA: Furthermore the ability to convert and cash out Linden Dollars has always been tenuous ... At any time it could be taken away. It always could be.

Mmm yes, and that's probably why How to delete your Paypal account was trending earlier this month and they even had start offering $15 bonuses to stop the surge of people attempting to close those accounts. That is aside from stock market drop of their shares and general loss of reputation over that fiasco.

[Solar Legion]

That's nice. quite the wrong assumption/statement and reach but still nice.

You are free to not use any payment processor of any stripe, including your local bank.

Good luck with that.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Solar Legion

[EliseAnne85]

19 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Why not just say, "Whatever happens to you, even if it's due to us, is not our fault and we don't owe you a darned thing."

Also, @Lindal Kidd this is all just starting.  I'd think, perhaps down the road a bit, if one's store of value with Tilia could be stored in U.S. dollars that could be FDIC insured.  The fiat but not the lindens.  It's a possibility.

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Are these out now?

Usually a contract change comes with having to say yes or no in the viewer on login.

I noted that too. So much for letting everyone know. Honestly how many folks read the notices in their backend area?  A very small percentage methinks and that is the plan.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[Ceka Cianci]

8 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I noted that too. So much for letting everyone know. Honestly how many folks read the notices in their backend area?  A very small percentage methinks and that is the plan.  

I guess we don't get it until the 31st so we might get it in the login..  I thought it was something  they sent out already , but i guess not.. hehehehe

[Coffee Pancake]

This is what happens when you put JPMorgan Chase on the board .. an account with US$ in it, suddenly isn't !

Just like real life.

[Chic Aeon]

22 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I guess we don't get it until the 31st so we might get it in the login..  I thought it was something  they sent out already , but i guess not.. hehehehe

I am doubting that. The "we can change this agreement at any time and it is your responsibility to take note" clause is undoubtedly in effect. We'll see. 

[JUSTUS Palianta]

Some clarification from linden labs would be really nice considering SL residents have a habit of chicken little the sky is falling.

[Prokofy Neva]

10 hours ago, animats said:

OK. So that's LL's text. This reflects the Tilia spinoff. 4.1 and 4.2 are reasonable enough.

4.3, though.

Tilia may, in its discretion and subject to its agreement with Second Life, allow you to request a refund from your Stored Value Account.

That's a problem. Tilia/J.P. Morgan Payments is supposed to be a regulated financial services company. They're a licensed money transfer business. Financial services companies do not usually have any right to refuse to allow withdrawals. This is a very strange provision to see from a company in the financial sector.

Also, this seems to make SL users subject to some non-public agreement between Tilia and Second Life. That has obvious problems.

...the credit will be processed within approximately five (5) to ten (10) business days following the request. Some requests may take up to thirty (30) days to process.

However, the Tilia / J.P. Morgan Payments service level agreement says: "It can take from 1 to 5 days to process a payout request. In some cases, payout requests may be declined. If there is a problem with a payout request, we will reach out to the customer directly to attempt to resolve the issue. Our SLA to complete the payout process is 5 days." SL's terms are substantially worse than the terms Tilia commits to provide to SL. That's strange and unnecessary.

Online companies are used to being able to draft overreaching EULAs. Banks and financial services companies have less freedom in that area. Tilia has obtained some of the privileges of a financial service business. That increases its obligations.

It's not like Linden Lab needs these provisions to operate. They're just unnecessary overreach.

It might be useful to have J.P. Morgan's compliance people to look this over.

They put in that language so that they can have tier paid before you file a request to withdraw funds. 

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I guess we don't get it until the 31st so we might get it in the login..  I thought it was something  they sent out already , but i guess not.. hehehehe

They said that there will be no signing of any TOS but that it is in effect, and if you don't wish to comply, you have to cancel your account by October 31. 

[Sid Nagy]

11 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Predictions: 

1) People will soon change their Profile pictures in protest over this.

2) People will declare they are leaving over this, probably to return. I have been told that I cannot use the term "flounce", if they are leaving for perfectly valid reasons.

3) There will be bitter complaints about this in various other threads.

I should buy a Lottery ticket!

You forgot: Love Zhaoying tries to make witty comments, without even trying to add something useful 90% of the time.

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I guess we don't get it until the 31st so we might get it in the login..  I thought it was something  they sent out already , but i guess not.. hehehehe

It says "automaticly" and you agree by using it.

[Jaylinbridges]

4.3 Process Credit from Stored Value Account to Permitted Account

If you accumulate more value in your Stored Value Account than you need to pay amounts associated with your use of Second Life, Tilia may, in its discretion and subject to its agreement with Second Life, allow you to request a refund from your Stored Value Account. Subject to your compliance with Tilia’s Terms of Service, you may be permitted to request that Tilia process a credit from your Stored Value Account, in an amount equal to all or a portion of the available funds associated with your Stored Value Account, to your PayPal account or other account permitted by Tilia. Tilia, in its sole discretion, will approve or deny your request. If approved, the request will be subject to a fee (the “Process Credit Fee”) payable to Tilia, and the credit will be processed within approximately five (5) to ten (10) business days following the request. Some requests may take up to thirty (30) days to process. 

So say you "own" 10 regions bought from LL (private regions), and you then pay LL $2,290 USD/month in tier to LL.  If you want to cash out say, $500 USD with a process transfer, you must have 2,290 + 500 + fees in your Stored Value Account, to get $500 to Paypal or your bank.  Tilia will hold the first $2,290 to pay your monthly land tier.

Some landowners might prefer to pay LL from their interest earning insured bank accounts, instead of leaving $2,290 in their SVA.  Of course if you never sell your Lindens for Tilia dollars, they will take the tier from an outside account.  But your renters pay you in Lindens, so you need to sell Lindens into your Tilia SVA so you can afford to pay your region tiers.  How will the land barons like this new rule?

I prefer to keep my Tilia SVA at $0 USD and only have a balance when I am doing a process credit.  Why give my dollars to Tilia for no interest and no FDIC insurance?

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[belindacarson]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

You forgot: Love Zhaoying tries to make witty comments, without even trying to add something useful 90% of the time.

And fails.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

You forgot: Love Zhaoying tries to make witty comments, without even trying to add something useful 90% of the time.

I am only slightly offended by the concept that my "attempts" at witty comments are not themselves an "attempt" to add something useful.  Of note - you make the second person lately (and "ever"?) who said I did not contribute anything.  

I think people who judge me that way, may skip over my more serious posts because they assume all my posts are "attempts" at being witty.  Hope that makes sense!

In any case, thank you for your feedback. Your contributions to the Forums are always interesting, and I learn a lot from your point of view!

[Love Zhaoying]

13 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think that if I squint really hard, I can see what is going on here. LL is distancing themselves from Tilia meaning, if Tilla decides "to cash out" or "not to cash out", that is not Linden Lab's fault with respect to Second Life.

 

Repeating this comment from Page 1.

I've seen that others have posted similar or related comments.

And, I agree with others (paraphrasing) who pointed out that "the new LL T&C" may be harsher than the actual Tilia T&C.

Adding what should be a somewhat obvious conclusion:  If LL (Second Life) is NOT Tilia, then we should depend more on the Tilia T&C for the Tilia "rules" and our expectation of Tilia, than on the Second Life T&C.

 

[Jaylinbridges]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Adding what should be a somewhat obvious conclusion:  If LL (Second Life) is NOT Tilia, then we should depend more on the Tilia T&C for the Tilia "rules" and our expectation of Tilia, than on the Second Life T&C.

If LL tells Tilia to withhold any Tilia dollars from a process credit because you may owe those dollars to LL in the future ("If you accumulate more value in your Stored Value Account than you need to pay amounts associated with your use of SL"), then there is no separation.  Tilia follows whatever LL tells them according to the LL TOS.  You must follow the LL TOS rules, not the Tilia rules, or delete your SL account!

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Qie Niangao]

The language doesn't look especially exotic to me, as the product of stacked teams of lawyers competing for how elaborately they protect their clients while sacrificing the interests of everybody who won't propose revisions. It simply recognizes the fact we mere residents are completely captive: we can't reject their offer except by grabbing all we can salvage and fleeing.

What I find surprising is the absurdly short notice period. Like a week, maybe, since "notice" was delivered before it goes into effect? I get a lot of such "terms are changing" notices in bank and brokerage statements, etc.—I eventually cancelled all business with American Express* because every month they had new terms in their online statements—and they all seem to give at least 30 days advance notice, usually more.

I suppose it doesn't really matter how lazy the lawyers are about that, because they're dealing with captive users, not anybody they consider real customers.

But the interval is so brief this time, you have to wonder… could they impose conditions retroactively next time ("by having logged in a month ago, you agreed to these new terms we just dreamt up")? If their next terms provide for retroactive notification of future changes, will anybody really leave?

___________________
*PayPal does it all the time, too, and for that one reason I'd cancel that account, too—in a heartbeat—if I didn't need it for Second Life.

[Love Zhaoying]

Irony: Is not crypto, but is cryptic.

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am only slightly offended by the concept that my "attempts" at witty comments are not themselves an "attempt" to add something useful.  Of note - you make the second person lately (and "ever"?) who said I did not contribute anything.  

I think people who judge me that way, may skip over my more serious posts because they assume all my posts are "attempts" at being witty.  Hope that makes sense!

In any case, thank you for your feedback. Your contributions to the Forums are always interesting, and I learn a lot from your point of view!

You read to much into my remark Love.
It was just an attempt to trow in some humor as well.

Commedy is a hard trade.  🍺

[StarlanderGoods]

Im probably entering the conspiracy theory realm, but lets imagine that casper is still resident owned,  wouldnt that be a way for people to buy and sell goods avoiding the sole discretion of Tilia ?  Could the buyout of Casper be related to this changes? And if so, was this TOS change the endgame or are we still moving towards a different end?

/me takes off tinfiol hat

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said:

Im probably entering the conspiracy theory realm, but lets imagine that casper is still resident owned,  wouldnt that be a way for people to buy and sell goods avoiding the sole discretion of Tilia ?  Could the buyout of Casper be related to this changes? And if so, was this TOS change the endgame or are we still moving towards a different end?

/me takes off tinfiol hat

But if Casper purchases are still in L$..then you still need to purchase L$ and will get paid in $L (via Tilia, presumably).

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

What I find surprising is the absurdly short notice period. Like a week, maybe, since "notice" was delivered before it goes into effect?

Actually the BIG TOS change of August 2013 gave no notice at all. The new TOS just appeared on the login screen and folks needed to agree in order to get ihnworld.  Some creators who made there living in SL never logged in again as doing so would go against agreements they had made in the "real world". Some left large amounts of money in game because of that. There was a huge exodus to Opensim of both creators and artists. Personally I only uploaded one graphic to SL in the year following -- that an information graphic for the LEA Machinima Open Studio Project.   I was over at Opensim most of the time with the other folks :D.  

 

So having a week of notice is actually an improvement :D.

 

There was also no notice in SANSAR when some major changes came into play. I foresaw the changes and cashed out but didn't take my products down off the market so they have been there supposedly making money with no cashing out for years (a perk for the new owners).    

 

It's all relative. 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

There was a huge exodus to Opensim of both creators and artists. Personally I only uploaded one graphic to SL in the year following -- that an information graphic for the LEA Machinima Open Studio Project.   I was over at Opensim most of the time with the other folks :D.  

I've been noting a marked uptick in concurrency (~30%) at one of the main Opensim grids over the past week, which from conversation with a couple of newer accounts was based more on just the news of Tilia being spun off to JPM. The ToS changes will likely result in more yet considering past changes though over the longer term will likely settle back to its usual slower growth.

[Lindal Kidd]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

If their next terms provide for retroactive notification of future changes, will anybody really leave?

Or, stated more correctly, if they make a retroactive notification, will anybody have left?