What happens when SL becomes very popular very fast?

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Others just whine on forums.

At least it keeps them/us engaged. There is always that very remote chance that the Lab will actually pay some attention to the feedback.

[Love Zhaoying]

11 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

The following is a true story. It happened in 2007, just before the television and hollywood writers strike. Massive numbers of television viewers logged into Second Life. What happened next is both amazing and depressing....

How to build a Metaverse - Part 3

I found it interesting to think about this time period as being similar to what happened with the COVID lockdowns. People logged into SL who had never used a platform like this before. Some stayed, but most didn't. Why?, and what could Linden Lab do now to keep the SL user numbers from crashing again?

Maybe the events then created some publicity that gave Second Life a needed "goose". 

Then people came and took a "gander".

In my opinion, Second Life did not end up being a "turkey"!

[Pixie Kobichenko]

I think the sudden rush of new users in second life in late 2007 directly correlates to an episode of The Office when the character Dwight Schrute had been visiting SL with an avi named Dwight Shelford.  No doubt thousands of viewers signed up to visit to see what it was all about & not many stayed past the first peek.  The writers strike began the next week.
 https://www.nbc.com/the-office/video/dwights-second-life/3842661

Edited October 13, 2022 by Pixie Kobichenko

[SeattleChris]

2 hours ago, TimKoul said:

L

 

And honestly, people like you are the reason why I'm so picky about who I choose to be friends with. You're just toxic af. You don't really add anything positive to anyones SL experience.  And believe me, there are a lot of yous. You're not alone.

You've done nothing but trash Second Life, on their own forums, and complain about how pretty much everybody but you is unimaginative, boring, greedy and stupid. What sort of pleasantries did you expect in return? Pushback isn't toxic. Honestly, if you hate the place that much, but the rest of us are happy, claiming it's everyone else's fault just seems silly.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do that."

"Then don't DO that."

Seems like good advice, not toxicity.

But perhaps we're all missing the point you've been trying to make: which seems to be "Second Life is filled with awful people." Personally, the population seems to be on the more creative side than most online communities of which I've been a part, but let's say you're right. What to do about it?

[TimKoul]

14 minutes ago, SeattleChris said:

You've done nothing but trash Second Life, on their own forums, and complain about how pretty much everybody but you is unimaginative, boring, greedy and stupid. What sort of pleasantries did you expect in return? Pushback isn't toxic. Honestly, if you hate the place that much, but the rest of us are happy, claiming it's everyone else's fault just seems silly.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do that."

"Then don't DO that."

Seems like good advice, not toxicity.

But perhaps we're all missing the point you've been trying to make: which seems to be "Second Life is filled with awful people." Personally, the population seems to be on the more creative side than most online communities of which I've been a part, but let's say you're right. What to do about it?

I never said I hated Second Life. It just has one of the most toxic communities. Once upon a time I was very positive and I did enjoy my days in SL. Over time, that deteriorated dramatically to the point where it's no longer fun for me at least.

Saying second life doesn't have life and is bland isn't a signal to the most devoted to rise and up and defend their precious virtual world. That's just my personal experience that has deteriorated since 2009.

Yes, SL spiked in 2007 due to The Office episode and then it fell pretty fast after that too. It really hasn't been dramatically updated since. I don't even think it can be and that alone stagnants it and prevents growth.

Making friends isnt exactly easy. Second Life is more or less treated as a giant date simulator. Many people, even on these forums in the Make Friends section, are leery and it shows. 

Roleplay? It's a joke. Most of it is sexual. Family RP is just crazy and full of dramatics and it's extremely hard to find a good RP sim. Someone was even asking where to find a RP sim that was Supernatural themed that was fantasy and not medevial themed (still no replies) which brings me to my next point....

...Imaginative and creative. Its gone severely downhill. There was a time when SL was super creative but it's not what it used to be. It's just the same theme popping up. Anything that has to do with fantasy is given either a medieval or elven vibe. Werewolves and vampires are forever stuck to bloodlines. There's zero creativity beyond what's basic.

Sure, people create amazing sims. But hardly anyone visits them so they don't last long. Photography and backdrops are the thing nowadays. Being a blogger grants access to free stuff and people love free stuff. The only thing keeping SL from completely drowning is shopping, playing dress up, and taking photos. It's not really about socializing and meeting people anymore. 

Maybe I'm just tired of the same old thing.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, TimKoul said:

I never said I hated Second Life. It just has one of the most toxic communities. Once upon a time I was very positive and I did enjoy my days in SL. Over time, that deteriorated dramatically to the point where it's no longer fun for me at least.

Saying second life doesn't have life and is bland isn't a signal to the most devoted to rise and up and defend their precious virtual world. That's just my personal experience that has deteriorated since 2009.

Yes, SL spiked in 2007 due to The Office episode and then it fell pretty fast after that too. It really hasn't been dramatically updated since. I don't even think it can be and that alone stagnants it and prevents growth.

Making friends isnt exactly easy. Second Life is more or less treated as a giant date simulator. Many people, even on these forums in the Make Friends section, are leery and it shows. 

Roleplay? It's a joke. Most of it is sexual. Family RP is just crazy and full of dramatics and it's extremely hard to find a good RP sim. Someone was even asking where to find a RP sim that was Supernatural themed that was fantasy and not medevial themed (still no replies) which brings me to my next point....

...Imaginative and creative. Its gone severely downhill. There was a time when SL was super creative but it's not what it used to be. It's just the same theme popping up. Anything that has to do with fantasy is given either a medieval or elven vibe. Werewolves and vampires are forever stuck to bloodlines. There's zero creativity beyond what's basic.

Sure, people create amazing sims. But hardly anyone visits them so they don't last long. Photography and backdrops are the thing nowadays. Being a blogger grants access to free stuff and people love free stuff. The only thing keeping SL from completely drowning is shopping, playing dress up, and taking photos. It's not really about socializing and meeting people anymore. 

Maybe I'm just tired of the same old thing.

You'd be welcome at the Pet Peeve thread! 

[TimKoul]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You'd be welcome at the Pet Peeve thread! 

I avoid it because I have a lot of peeves lol

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, TimKoul said:

I avoid it because I have a lot of peeves lol

Understood, gotta spread  'em around, like fertilizer.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, SeattleChris said:

You've done nothing but trash Second Life, on their own forums, and complain about how pretty much everybody but you is unimaginative, boring, greedy and stupid.

Don't forget, "with a burner account."

[Sparkle Bunny]

Whiny person with superiority complex wonders why they have no friends 🙄

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

Whiny person with superiority complex wonders why they have no friends 🙄

That sounds like a headline from "The Onion"!

[Rowan Amore]

41 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Don't forget, "with a burner account."

Perhaps if they added more emojis, they'd be happier.   😁😉

[Ceka Cianci]

The booms i can remember from back then were for a lot of reasons, tv shows and scandals mostly.. nothing brought in a new flock of users like a good old fashion sex scandal though.. hehehehe

As far as the world itself goes,I think we all stir our own pot.

Some people have a sucky experience and some people don't..I know when I partook in drama there was lots of drama.. when I put a stop to it, it stopped..

When i had this big ego because  I thought my avatar was the shiat, everyone else was the problem..When i got humbled I seen how much of it was me, then everyone else wasn't so bad..

I think because it's a world that is based around our own imaginations, we create our own atmosphere.

I still am a believer in , our world our imagination..

Anytime i here someone say, everyone does this  or it's 99% do that.. I know to lick the salt block, because after all these years I'm still finding different things to get into, different things to do and all kinds of communities that I didn't know about all this time..  It's really easy to put ourselves in a bubble and make the world smaller than it actually is..

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Perhaps if they added more emojis, they'd be happier.   😁😉

"They'd be prettier if they smiled!" 😉 

[Bree Giffen]

1 hour ago, TimKoul said:

Sure, people create amazing sims. But hardly anyone visits them so they don't last long. Photography and backdrops are the thing nowadays. Being a blogger grants access to free stuff and people love free stuff. The only thing keeping SL from completely drowning is shopping, playing dress up, and taking photos. It's not really about socializing and meeting people anymore. 

People need a little forced interaction in their lives. Like those times in real life when you are shopping for groceries, going to the mall, or standing in line at the post office. A place in SL where you will find yourself thinking about what you are going to do in SL and decide to just ask the stranger standing next to you wondering the same thing. Maybe all LL needs to do is make a small change in the login algorithm and send people back to public welcome areas at random time intervals. If the whole population of SL is sent back to the welcome areas once in a while this may generate more interaction and socialization.

[Istelathis]

1 minute ago, Bree Giffen said:

People need a little forced interaction in their lives.

I thought my idea to unleash a new virus to maintain a higher level of active users online was evil, but you.. you Bree have earned the crown of evil plots 😈😝  As long as I am not forced into interaction with others, I'm onboard 🙃

[Coffee Pancake]

5 hours ago, Cinos Field said:

I'm pretty thankful in that LL only remain as caretakers rather than the trendsetters of their virtual world. They give us tools, and we use the tools if we want to. They don't, like that other company, come in and go "actually you're not supposed to do adult stuff!" or "let's ban third party modifications", or "poke each other for fun just like this!". The last time that other company did they lost about 5000 concurrent users immediately and are still on a downward trend towards totally irrelevance, whereas SL remains steady.

Once SL has puppetteering and the dynamic animations that allows - I for one am super excited about it - it'll basically have feature parity with the competition again, and I wouldn't doubt a resurgence.

I  don't want LL to occupy the trendsetters roles, I don't think they could if they tried, or should if they could - that is looking inward and not what we need LL to be doing.

LL need to be looking outward and building SL to that focus.

Come to SL, you can now ________ with your friends !!!

 

[Rowan Amore]

37 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

People need a little forced interaction in their lives.

No.

 

37 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

send people back to public welcome areas at random time intervals

People do NOT interact when they get logged into these areas.  They get the heck out as soon as possible.  

[Ernst Osterham]

My guess is if a whole bunch of new hype and users appeared a lot would look just like it does now only with more people.  It wouldn’t change the direction SL has headed.

Sort of like how more people in RL doesn’t lead to more Amazons it just makes Amazon bigger and more profitable.

Maybe if some new feature is added that fundamentally adds something to what you can do in SL it would be different, but that risks alienating the core userbase.

I joined in 2008 and I remember when a 5 year old av was like a WOW moment.  Now I routinely see 15+ year old avs and 10 years+ is commonplace.  Before it always felt like SL was a big place with loads of people and places to meet and explore.  Today it feels much more like a small town where you run into the same longtime residents no matter what activity or event you’re at.

More people would help with that but without some reason for ithem to stay why would they?  

 

 

 

[Cali Souther]

9 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

Minecraft isn't a pure sandbox in the way Second Life is. As mutable and low-stakes as the objectives are, there are some. Mine and gather resources. Evade enemies. Build. These are understandable goals with some semblance of reward. That people take the humble building blocks and build universes is sort of secondary to what the basic gameplay is.

I love Minecraft,  and it has or had broad appeal [honestly not sure how popular it is these days] - because it's simple.  Yes,  you can dig deeper into it's complexities, but for the average person it's not hard to get the basics down quickly and be able to build away.   Second Life,  which I also love,  is NOT simple.  Especially when it comes to building.  It appeals to the more tech savvy engineer types - who can understand it and be creative here.    IF SL could become more user friendly,  I think it would really help with retention.

I tried to help someone yesterday,  grant it - she didn't seem to really want help - even tho she asked for it.....  but she was very frustrated just trying to get dressed. 

Just my 2cents

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I  don't want LL to occupy the trendsetters roles, I don't think they could if they tried, or should if they could - that is looking inward and not what we need LL to be doing.

LL need to be looking outward and building SL to that focus.

Come to SL, you can now ________ with your friends !!!

 

LL badly needs a new visionary person, like Philip was in the early years, who can give SL a boost for another real takeoff into the center of world wide attention again. Easy to write down, very hard to find.

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

One thing SL has been great for is the music.  Many RL performers are in world and you can find your choice or genre at the many clubs in SL.  Also there's a lot of DJs .  Some might played the same tired stuff --- others will dig up stuff that is totally ignored by radio and even streaming services.

So there is stuff to do in world, especially if you're into music.

[animats]

Could we tone down the drama a bit, please, before the ban hammer people get here?

I'm trying to figure out how to make SL better. SL isn't growing. But some of the competitors are. Other competitors have failed, hard. So it's worth looking at what others are doing, what's working, and what isn't working.

In 2022, after years of inaction, we started seeing Linden Lab trying to improve Second Life. More Linden developers with game graphics experience have been appearing at meetings and discussing work in progress. There's progress on the technical side. But no sense of how to fix the growth problem.

It's not easy. The entire NFT world tanked. Not one NFT metaverse has significant in-world usage. (Again, excluding China mobile.) Decentraland is down to about 500 concurrent users, from a peak of 2600. Sominium Space is in two digits. The "game level loaders", Sansar, Sinespace, High Fidelity, etc. all tanked. Although Sinespace was repurposed for business as Breakroom, an expensive conferencing world. Facebook, after spending $10 billion, has so far produced three dud virtual worlds (Oculus, Facebook Spaces, and Horizon).

The successes are Roblox, VRChat, Minecraft, and various games with social features, including, of course, Fortnite.

A key point is making the first hour fun. That's hard. SL is terrible at that.

[Brightstar7777]

13 minutes ago, animats said:

A key point is making the first hour fun. That's hard. SL is terrible at that.

I think this is true. There are barriers to doing most of the things that make SL the most fun. Free accounts can't do much without clearing many hurdles- there's no obvious way to upload, you can't have your own persistent builds, it's difficult to find large themed worlds to explore on the continent or the private estates by chance, it's difficult to find welcoming groups of people by interest (even if you've been here nearly two decades), and even if you do, they may very well block you from approaching their corner of the world because you don't have a paid account (even if you have a +500 reputation on the forum, you're functionally less trusted than the class of people what who have credit cards). All these elements together feel a bit dysfunctional; a failure of onboarding.

I wondered sometimes if Linden Lab made the explicit decision to stand back and not compete with the virtual economy such as by offering a better starter library in the inventory, or by offering accounts their own land. The truth is, we could use a little virtual socialism because new people start with nothing and begin exploring the question of whether or not they feel invested in continuing. Agents and avatars can get around most of these limitations in various ways if they're extremely savvy or connected in all the ways new users typically aren't, such as group shared land or free items from the marketplace, but for many it will be difficult to push through the frustration level and clear the hurdles while climbing a very steep learning curve and integrating disparate elements from outside the experience of the SL client. The flow is frustrated.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Brightstar7777

[SeattleChris]

7 minutes ago, animats said:

The successes are Roblox, VRChat, Minecraft, and various games with social features, including, of course, Fortnite.

A key point is making the first hour fun. That's hard. SL is terrible at that.

Agreed. The learning curve is horrible for SL. I created an account during the very early days to virtually meet a group of people from irc and gave up before ever finding where they were. I came back a second time for lurrrrrve. (That didn't work out, but now I mostly love SL, so I guess... it did.)

Another thing I saw discussed about virtual realities on a business network was: ok... we log into these places and then what? I think some people are under the misconception they're just putting a very, very fancy and expensive wrapper around Twitter or a similar social network.

I've often thought a "training wheels" hud might be a good offering for noobs. Sort of a video game style panel with movement buttons (and keyboard commands listed in smaller type for reference), etc. Just until the basics feel less like rocket science and more like ... left foot, right foot. But maybe another possibility would be achievement tracks. Visit 10 of these places and get a badge or something. I don't know, I don't want to video-game SL too much, but I sort of think we might have to trick people into realizing they get to create their own fun.