Shattered Expectations about Premium Plus

[Kylie Jaxxon]

45 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Folks have been saying that for a decade at least -- and to be sort of fair The Lab did try with Sansar. In my mind that kind of proved (to me anyway although I wasn't doubting) that it isn't the tech that makes the platform but the people and the creativity and let's also say "freedom". 

 

Sansar had outstanding tech and yes, my stuff (same stuff) looked much better there. And clothes that automatically fit (for the most part anyway)?  That was a joy.  It had so very many things going for it and yet it basically failed.  If we just kept the world exactly as it is now (well honestly I would prefer the  pre-EEP model), we would be fine for another decade.  If you were here ten years ago, you likely know that we were having just as much fun or more back then without all the new bells and whistles. 

 

For me, anything outside of SL where I can't take my inventory with me, is a no-go for me....I have too much invested $ wise

[Drayke Newall]

6 hours ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

Whomever brought the Belli idea to the table, hope he/she got a huge raise....for sure, it's a big moneymaker for LL

Is it?

According to Oberwolf in his interview along with Phillip recently in SLB19, Belli and its community and community driven activities offers them absolutely NO profit at all and is a loss. That isn't me or any resident saying it, that is straight from the horses mouth. They make no profit on Belli.

Whilst I joked in the other thread about Oberwolfs mexican wave, the actual interview was very insightful even going as far as confirming what Coffee said, that they never have and still dont know what Second Life is used for by residents.

A few things to take away in relation to premium, cost and some misc. things that Oberwolf mentioned other than Belli not making money.

• They plan to release even higher premium subscription models.
• They plan to offer more expensive land with unknown extras due to AWS ability however no mention of reduction in land cost due to premium uptake and AWS as promised previously.
• They plan to offer more stuff in premium packages if the costs work out but no mention of basic improvements.
• They no longer market second life at all in a traditional sense. This was a big shock especially given them hiring a CMO recently.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Drayke Newall

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

26 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Is it?

According to Oberwolf in his interview along with Phillip recently in SLB19, Belli and its community and community driven activities offers them absolutely NO profit at all and is a loss. That isn't me or any resident saying it, that is straight from the horses mouth. They make no profit on Belli.

Whilst I joked in the other thread about Oberwolfs mexican wave, the actual interview was very insightful even going as far as confirming what Coffee said, that they never have and still dont know what Second Life is used for by residents.

A few things to take away in relation to premium, cost and some misc. things that Oberwolf mentioned other than Belli not making money.

• They plan to release even higher premium subscription models.
• They plan to offer more expensive land with unknown extras due to AWS ability however no mention of reduction in land cost due to premium uptake and AWS as promised previously.
• They plan to offer more stuff in premium packages if the costs work out but no mention of basic improvements.
• They no longer market second life at all in a traditional sense. This was a big shock especially given them hiring a CMO recently.

Seems SL could be a different animal way down the road.  When you get a new company in charge, usually gotta expect them to gear whatever the took over to bring more revenue in.

[diamond Marchant]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I knew in my first week I had found a true diamond in the rough and would be here right till the very end. Everyone gets jaded and disappointed in SL as it fails to live up to initial heady expectations, not everyone can take a step back and recognize that if its ever going to meet those hope and dreams, they are going to have to stay.

I feel the same way. I just hope there is a plan to migrate us to the Valley Beyond.

The part about losing money on Bellisseria... Brad was not under oath and I am not convinced that he was completely forthcoming.

I went to  Meet the Lindens: Marketing today and experienced a pep rally ("Gee... Second Life is swell). No real new info other than they understand that SL should not go crypto. YaY for that.

My main concern as this point in the emotional rollercoaster is that SL has morphed from a game/entertainment enterprise into a financial engineering company. They no longer talk about technical innovation. They don't seem to understand that code can be rewritten and bugs can be fixed .  But they know how to raise prices and confuse things so that many don't notice.

[Drayke Newall]

1 minute ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Seems SL could be a different animal way down the road.  When you get a new company in charge, usually gotta expect them to gear whatever the took over to bring more revenue in.

Whilst true, the problem with Second Life is that the cow is already being milked dry. There is only so much Linden Lab can offer of value in premium to residents and this is the problem with their premium offers. There is also only so much a person is willing to spend on a premium model.

Other than group amount increases, more mainland/belli home and reduction in upload fees, what else can LL offer to entice people to spend money directly to them?

There is nothing and what things they do have that would benefit money making for them and improve user experience, they want tied behind premium or are not interested in offering separately if at all. LL dont know how to run their offerings and this has always been an issue for them.

They think that there is value in premium gifts, when most dont even get them. They think there is value in premium sandboxes when most times they are empty. They think there is value in premium locations such as amazon and dune buggy racing when 99% of the time no one is there. They think there is value in live support when most people expect that to be free.

For example, Do you see any other companies offering name changes tied to premium at $53.19 each change (inc. premium)? No because those companies realise they would make more money and keep users more happy to offer the service cheaper and available to all.

As mentioned, they have already stated they are looking at higher premium tiers. What's Premium ++ going to offer another $650 extra linden stipend, an additional 1024m², another doubling on user groups, live support for those outside of US time? That's all they can offer as they have already removed upload fees with Premium+. What the price going to be for that - $40?

Even an 'a la carte' system isn't going to work as what can they offer? If they offer a base package and then pick and choose items at a certain cost it cost more than current premium. If they offered a linden home separately how much will it cost for them to make money on it - given they are loosing money on Belli?

Keep in mind that a singular 'a la carte' option needs to be far cheaper than base premium of $13/month. So $5 for a linden home and $5 for the current 300L$ stipend and we are already at a point where the person should just buy base premium and LL would loose more money in such a system as not even $5 would cover the expense of those two items.

[Lucia Nightfire]

6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

and a week later finished with a poll .. and let us just vote

I'm still waiting on Web to give us the ability to make polls. 📊

[Drayke Newall]

48 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

The part about losing money on Bellisseria... Brad was not under oath and I am not convinced that he was completely forthcoming.

It is probably true. If we take what we have been told from Lindens in that they cannot reduce tier as it would eat into their profit it allows an approximate understanding of whether it is true or not. If you take a 20% profit (usual non-greedy profit) on current full region price, that leaves $183 running cost per region. That means that LL need to make that much money just to cover expenses.

I am not sure how many Linden Homes are on a region but lets say it is 10 on average. Premium now is 13.19/month and that includes $5.20USD/month stipend, a linden home, premium sandbox etc. If we remove the stipend cost etc, that means that for a linden home they charge $7.99/month if we assume the sandboxes, moles, live support staff, gifts, exclusive regions, etc. are free with premium and cost LL nothing.

Keep also in mind that a year sub costs $8.25/month leaving only $3.05/month for a linden home.

$7.99 x 10 equals $79.90 (or $30.50 if everyone buys the yearly sub) in earnings from a linden home region. Far shy of the $183 running cost. Now obviously the running cost could be less however even if it is less there is no way for LL to earn enough through Linden Homes to not loose money on let alone break even unless a region to run costs them under $79.90 (or $30.50) which, it could or could not depending on the Linden you believe.

Take a land baron as an example. They have to divide up their regions 9 times and include skybox areas just to make a profit on their running cost (sim cost). LL is no different yet they only can charge for land space with premium.

If they are making a profit on Linden Homes then the above calculation shows to users how much a region costs Linden Lab to host on AWS. For example if it does indeed cost them only $30.50 at its minimum with no additional profit, then that calls into question why they are charging users $229/region which equates to a 663% markup.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Drayke Newall

[Chic Aeon]

4 hours ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

For me, anything outside of SL where I can't take my inventory with me, is a no-go for me....I have too much invested $ wise

I am sure that was a big part of the issue. It seemed like, from comment by Ebbe on these forums that the original "plan" was to be able to migrate some things over (not scripts and not clothing but like furniture and such which was a dimplier bridge between systems.   In my mind that was part of the reason for the infamous change in the TOS in August of 2013.  I have a page on that for anyone interested with links to forums and the like -- just poke me.  

 

BUT it seemed like as thing progressed and the new platform (built from scratch) came into being -- that it became apparent the idea was faulty.  It is sad really as Sansar was an exceptionally lovely place with many opportunities for creativity that we don't have here.  But it  WAS and IS a different platform with very different rules. Even importing mesh mad in SL took quite a bit of time and some reworking.  

 

I think many people will be here until the doors close -- or until they die as after almost 20 years no one is getting any younger LOL.  

[Cynical Cloud]

This had to make me laugh, from Inara Peys recent coverage of the interview with Brad Oberwager (who is responsible for that rubbish below) and Philip Rosedale.

https://gyazo.com/07f688e67ef6f6d1f5b29990a39d8db0

(Original article https://modemworld.me/2022/06/23/sl19b-mtl-brad-oberwager-and-philip-rosedale-summary/)

For me, premium plus is just not worth is, I own 3 x 1024 parcels plus the 10% and even with that my monthly premium plus tier is lower than premium plus, I really don't understand how they can justify that pricing.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Cynical Cloud

[Coffee Pancake]

I watched the marketing meeting, and the only thing that stood out was how short the terrible animations in those chairs are.

It didn't occurr to a single one of them to change the animation used when it was their turn to talk.

SL is this thing to observe from afar, superficially identifying themes and pastimes, yet never once feeling the excitement from a friend logging in. Staring in amazement at the daily tide washing in a out, yet never once walking into the water, or getting a boat or catching a fish, or crying as it slips away.

It's all just boxes to tick. Got Strawberry to dress me CHECK. Sat in the chair CHECK. We love our jobs CHECK.

Second Life is a hard won personal journey. It's technically and socially complex. Building an avatar that you personally identify with is hard. Finding your social niche is hard. Making real friends is hard. Falling in love, expressing and maintaining that connection is hard.

Yet with each of those hard won personal victories comes identity, meaning and connection.

To LL. Each of those hard fought personal steps is a hinderance, something to try and short cut, a superficial means to a superficial end. Get the newbie an avatar off the peg CHECK. Got the newbie to an event CHECK. Job Done, well done everybody CHECK.

Second Life is a real place, populated by real people, doing and expressing all the real things that matter to us personally. Every aspect of the human condition is here, the good and the bad, and that is the draw.

The journey is point. That's why we're all here, advancing our own stories, one hard won personal step at a time.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Drayke Newall]

45 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I watched the marketing meeting, and the only thing that stood out was how short the terrible animations in those chairs are.

Please dont say it is the one handed mexican wave animation again. I dont think I could bare to watch another video with those animations. If it is, I will have to wait for the transcript.

[Qie Niangao]

That Bellisseria doesn't yet turn a profit is undoubtedly the accounting equivalent of interpretive dance: it's all in how you slice the revenue and stack it against the cost of developing and hosting some sims. If all the membership fees paid by Belli dwellers is compared to Belli costs, it must surely make a reasonable margin. On the other hand, if all that counts is the uptick in Premium membership since Belli was rolled out (or just the new Premiums residing on Belli, or whatever), then it surely is a big loser.

But a couple twists. First, it would be unwarranted optimism to think all the old Premiums would have continued if Belli didn't exist. Back before Belli, the whole Land product was steadily slumping (and not only Mainland); that's turned around, presumably due in some part to Belli itself, and in some other part to the mere fact the Lab is invested enough in SL to make Belli happen.

Second, Belli created a lot of market activity for user content. Not so great for prefab builders, maybe, but tour some Belli regions and snoop inside the parcels: there's a vast amount of new stuff out there that Belli residents bought from other residents. Some of that purchasing would have happened even if the residents were still on old Estate and Mainland regions, but a whole lot of it is attributable to the newness of Belli. One way or another, the Lab always benefits when users sell content to other users.

[Katie Aurelia]

12 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Whilst true, the problem with Second Life is that the cow is already being milked dry. There is only so much Linden Lab can offer of value in premium to residents and this is the problem with their premium offers. There is also only so much a person is willing to spend on a premium model.

Other than group amount increases, more mainland/belli home and reduction in upload fees, what else can LL offer to entice people to spend money directly to them?

There is nothing and what things they do have that would benefit money making for them and improve user experience, they want tied behind premium or are not interested in offering separately if at all. LL dont know how to run their offerings and this has always been an issue for them.

They think that there is value in premium gifts, when most dont even get them. They think there is value in premium sandboxes when most times they are empty. They think there is value in premium locations such as amazon and dune buggy racing when 99% of the time no one is there. They think there is value in live support when most people expect that to be free.

[cut off to save space lol]

1) The premium gifts were Always awful. I stopped checking when I was still a noob who wasn't even great at noticing differences in quality yet. I was floored that nobody involved in the company apparently was able to create. MAYBE that's changed, but isn't something I'll be holding my breath on lol

2) At a certain point, the only way to extract more value is to make a bigger pie, aka attract more users. If they've reached the pinnacle on the userbase then that's a much more worrying sign. Are we even sure how much attention they pay (or try to pay) to new alts vs Actual new users during account creations?

[Nalates Urriah]

14 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Is it?

According to Oberwolf in his interview along with Phillip recently in SLB19, Belli and its community and community driven activities offers them absolutely NO profit at all and is a loss. That isn't me or any resident saying it, that is straight from the horses mouth. They make no profit on Belli.

Whilst I joked in the other thread about Oberwolfs mexican wave, the actual interview was very insightful even going as far as confirming what Coffee said, that they never have and still dont know what Second Life is used for by residents.

A few things to take away in relation to premium, cost and some misc. things that Oberwolf mentioned other than Belli not making money.

• They plan to release even higher premium subscription models.
• They plan to offer more expensive land with unknown extras due to AWS ability however no mention of reduction in land cost due to premium uptake and AWS as promised previously.
• They plan to offer more stuff in premium packages if the costs work out but no mention of basic improvements.
• They no longer market second life at all in a traditional sense. This was a big shock especially given them hiring a CMO recently.

This is one of those things where one's terms really need to be defined.

Saying we make no money on Belli may be about how you look at it. One has to be Premium to live there. So they make money selling Premium but do not specially charge for a Belli house.

This could be similar to saying we make no money on the servers running SL. All those servers are an expense. And the electricity... and on and on. But without those that is no SL to be a Premium member of.

11 hours ago, Cynical Cloud said:

This had to make me laugh, from Inara Peys recent coverage of the interview with Brad Oberwager (who is responsible for that rubbish below) and Philip Rosedale.

https://gyazo.com/07f688e67ef6f6d1f5b29990a39d8db0

(Original article https://modemworld.me/2022/06/23/sl19b-mtl-brad-oberwager-and-philip-rosedale-summary/)

For me, premium plus is just not worth is, I own 3 x 1024 parcels plus the 10% and even with that my monthly premium plus tier is lower than premium plus, I really don't understand how they can justify that pricing.

Giving $2 of value for a dollar cost does NOT imply a possible loss. Saudi oil is sold for ~100/barrel. The king pays the oil company $1 per barrel. The oil company figures a barrel of oil costs them $0.50 a barrel to produce. Ultimately the $100 value the world assigns to a barrel of oil only costs $0.50.

Inara and others in SL seem to lack insight in several areas of business. She provides good technical reviews and SL coverage. But the idea Brad was implying they might be willing to lose money to provide residents more 'stuff' doesn't fit.

45 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

That Bellisseria doesn't yet turn a profit is undoubtedly the accounting equivalent of interpretive dance: it's all in how you slice the revenue and stack it against the cost of developing and hosting some sims. If all the membership fees paid by Belli dwellers is compared to Belli costs, it must surely make a reasonable margin. On the other hand, if all that counts is the uptick in Premium membership since Belli was rolled out (or just the new Premiums residing on Belli, or whatever), then it surely is a big loser.

But a couple twists. First, it would be unwarranted optimism to think all the old Premiums would have continued if Belli didn't exist. Back before Belli, the whole Land product was steadily slumping (and not only Mainland); that's turned around, presumably due in some part to Belli itself, and in some other part to the mere fact the Lab is invested enough in SL to make Belli happen.

Second, Belli created a lot of market activity for user content. Not so great for prefab builders, maybe, but tour some Belli regions and snoop inside the parcels: there's a vast amount of new stuff out there that Belli residents bought from other residents. Some of that purchasing would have happened even if the residents were still on old Estate and Mainland regions, but a whole lot of it is attributable to the newness of Belli. One way or another, the Lab always benefits when users sell content to other users.

Good point on how the accounting is done.

[Marianne Little]

14 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Is it?

According to Oberwolf in his interview along with Phillip recently in SLB19, Belli and its community and community driven activities offers them absolutely NO profit at all and is a loss. That isn't me or any resident saying it, that is straight from the horses mouth. They make no profit on Belli.

Whilst I joked in the other thread about Oberwolfs mexican wave, the actual interview was very insightful even going as far as confirming what Coffee said, that they never have and still dont know what Second Life is used for by residents.

A few things to take away in relation to premium, cost and some misc. things that Oberwolf mentioned other than Belli not making money.

• They plan to release even higher premium subscription models.
• They plan to offer more expensive land with unknown extras due to AWS ability however no mention of reduction in land cost due to premium uptake and AWS as promised previously.
• They plan to offer more stuff in premium packages if the costs work out but no mention of basic improvements.
• They no longer market second life at all in a traditional sense. This was a big shock especially given them hiring a CMO recently.

I am so surprised. All those people who have alts and 3-4 houses, they have to count for something?

And paying Premium again so they do not loose the great locations.

And LL continue with the large amount of work on new regions, and it is a loss...?

I don't know.

I need to be exited to spend 249 US now.. Heck, even 100 US makes me think. I paid to much taxes last year and get 700 in US back. Yay me! Then I realize 249 US is more than 1/3 of what I get back, and I really REALLY need to be in a haze of joy to pay it.

I think it was a mistake of LL to not have the 2048 m houses ready. That could have been what I needed, yes? If I loved them, I would say to myself "You need to spoil yourself a bit. Get one of those". I have become so damned frugal in RL, even if I can pay for a hobby like SL. I have savings, I never need to use a credit card. The bad news about the economy in the world makes me want to sit on my money like Smaug.

I think some creators will jump on P+, but not many of the rest.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Marianne Little

[Cynical Cloud]

4 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Giving $2 of value for a dollar cost does NOT imply a possible loss. Saudi oil is sold for ~100/barrel. The king pays the oil company $1 per barrel. The oil company figures a barrel of oil costs them $0.50 a barrel to produce. Ultimately the $100 value the world assigns to a barrel of oil only costs $0.50.

Inara and others in SL seem to lack insight in several areas of business. She provides good technical reviews and SL coverage. But the idea Brad was implying they might be willing to lose money to provide residents more 'stuff' doesn't fit.

Good point on how the accounting is done.

I didn't say it implies a loss, I meant that going by the P+ feelers Patch put out, that satatement I quoted doesn't feel accurate at all, and it hasn't done for a while.

[Nalates Urriah]

5 minutes ago, Cynical Cloud said:

I didn't say it implies a loss, I meant that going by the P+ feelers Patch put out, that satatement I quoted doesn't feel accurate at all, and it hasn't done for a while.

It was NOT directed at you. You were quoting Inara.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Nalates Urriah
left out the key word: NOT

[Cynical Cloud]

Just now, Nalates Urriah said:

It was directed at you. You were quoting Inara.

Okay I was confused lol

(Btw, off topic, love your blog, long time rss subscriber, learned a lot from you over the years, thank you for that, it's appreciated <3)

[Qie Niangao]

27 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I think it was a mistake of LL to not have the 2048 m houses ready.

Absolutely. It's the "killer app" of Premium Plus because it's not only an exclusive item, available only to Plus subscribers, but in an exclusive neighborhood of those items where only those Plus subscribers have residences.

I guess it's conceivable they have some other trick on reserve to coincide with this delayed roll-out, making it all make sense. We'll see.

[Drayke Newall]

51 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I am so surprised. All those people who have alts and 3-4 houses, they have to count for something?

And paying Premium again so they do not loose the great locations.

And LL continue with the large amount of work on new regions, and it is a loss...?

I don't know..

One can never know and can only go by what the Lindens say. If they say that Belli runs at a loss and makes no profit then that is what we have to assume. Paying out stipends cost Linden Lab money as does servers to host those regions. If that cant be covered by premium and they say it is a loss then that is what it is.

As Oberwolf said prior to that statement, the more they invest in SL the more engagement a user gives. Thus, they are happy to suffer the loss in the short term however hope in the long term i.e. 5 years down the track, that investment pays off and provides a profit. Once again from the horses mouth. Not me interpreting but what was said.

[Aria Aurelia]

Please stop beating a dead horse, most of you have said you aren't happy with the price.  You have the choice not to purchase it and nothing for you has changed.  You simply dont buy it and anyone who is happy with it can buy it and go on with life.  249 is here and that is the price.  You either pay or you don't.  It is like going to the used car lot and buying the BMW, Mercedes, or the cheap Honda.  You get what you decide to pay for in life. No one is forcing anyones hand here and quite honestly the moaning needs to just stop because 249 is the price and no one is obligated to pay it. 

You get around 150 dollars worth of linden in the course of the next year which brings the price of this down to 100 US dollars.  So at 20 plus US a month I'll take my new 2600 (12.28 if you buy inworld) and free uploads on everything. (The 249/12) = 20.75 - 12.28 (Linden Cost) = 8.47

That is what it is costing you to have this if you buy it straight up  at 249

I'm going to pay 8.47 a month to get a bunch of stuff that I find highly desireable.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Aria Aurelia

[Coffee Pancake]

7 minutes ago, Aria Aurelia said:

Please stop beating a dead horse, most of you have said you aren't happy with the price.

The price is the very least of our concerns.

 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

10 minutes ago, Aria Aurelia said:

Please stop beating a dead horse, most of you have said you aren't happy with the price.  You have the choice not to purchase it and nothing for you has changed.  You simply dont buy it and anyone who is happy with it can buy it and go on with life.  249 is here and that is the price.  You either pay or you don't.  It is like going to the used car lot and buying the BMW, Mercedes, or the cheap Honda.  You get what you decide to pay for in life. No one is forcing anyones hand here and quite honestly the moaning needs to just stop because 249 is the price and no one is obligated to pay it. 

You get around 150 dollars worth of linden in the course of the next year which brings the price of this down to 100 US dollars.  So at 20 plus US a month I'll take my new 2600 (12.28 if you buy inworld) and free uploads on everything. (The 249/12) = 20.75 - 12.28 (Linden Cost) = 8.47

That is what it is costing you to have this if you buy it straight up  at 249

I'm going to pay 8.47 a month to get a bunch of stuff that I find highly desireable.

 

 

To be fair, how many times now have you commented on how thrilled you are and that you will buy it? Let people air their opinions just as you are airing yours.   

[Cynical Cloud]

9 minutes ago, Aria Aurelia said:

Please stop beating a dead horse, most of you have said you aren't happy with the price.  You have the choice not to purchase it and nothing for you has changed.  You simply dont buy it and anyone who is happy with it can buy it and go on with life.  249 is here and that is the price.  You either pay or you don't.  It is like going to the used car lot and buying the BMW, Mercedes, or the cheap Honda.  You get what you decide to pay for in life. No one is forcing anyones hand here and quite honestly the moaning needs to just stop because 249 is the price and no one is obligated to pay it. 

You get around 150 dollars worth of linden in the course of the next year which brings the price of this down to 100 US dollars.  So at 20 plus US a month I'll take my new 2600 (12.28 if you buy inworld) and free uploads on everything. (The 249/12) = 20.75 - 12.28 (Linden Cost) = 8.47

That is what it is costing you to have this if you buy it straight up  at 249

I'm going to pay 8.47 a month to get a bunch of stuff that I find highly desireable.

 

 

So according to you if you're not happy with the value of something you just roll over and accept it? You have never tried to negotiate or even voice an opinion? In this situation, I think they actually Want this to happen, it's rare (as far as I'm aware) to give an unofficial announcement in such detail, and I think this was their attempt, maybe, of market research, and yep, most are not happy, and we have expressed that opinion and sicussed it, there's nothing wrong with that is there?

[Gabriele Graves]

I don't know about anyone else but when someone tells me a bunch of stuff that doesn't add up, I often wonder if they are lying.  When a corp does it, I'm sure of it.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Gabriele Graves