Shattered Expectations about Premium Plus

[Teresa Firelight]

1 hour ago, Jules Catlyn said:

It always baffles me (in real life as well) how people can put a price on fixing an "emotional dent". 

"I am disappointed but if you give me "'x" amount, i will be all happy again"

for me it was more a case of "you promised X but delivered Y" and that made me feel upset. If you do X (as promised) even for a short while then I wont feel upset anymore.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I just figured it out! 

That extra 49.00

 That's where the Plus in Premium Plus comes in.

hehehehe

The should have made it "US$249.99", that way it would sound like a bargain.

(Similar to how prices set to $.99, are seen as "a bargain" being $0.01 less than the next US$.)

[Qie Niangao]

Remember when the idea was to move away from Land being the only significant revenue generator for the Lab?

What if the plan is to increase non-Plus Premium (on the theory Plus is part of a new subscription pricing model) and slashing Mainland tier?

I could go for that. And it's kinda overdue because a few years ago Estate fees dropped to near Mainland rates (a full Estate region used to be much more expensive than Mainland, and now it's nearer to par). There's still plenty of abandoned Mainland that could get interesting again if residents could add a bunch to their holdings while still paying the same amount. Estate owners would emit the usual cranky tantrums but if subscription cost rises as tier drops they'd just need to accept they're on the waning side of the SL economy / business model.

If they were going to do that, though, they might not have been so stingy with the "bonus" tier for Plus. (2048 is pretty underwhelming for a flagship subscription offer, even if non-Plus is stuck at 1024. And Moles could do a lot with 4096 Bellisseria builds.)

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

Will they really break promises like the new homes and mesh uploads? That name change is nothing to trust now. But the other two should they give us.

It really depends. Considering there a countless Belli homes already with many unoccupied it would mean that in order to satisfy the status quo they will need to make available at least half as many 2048 plots as 1048 Belli homes otherwise people will see that they are not available and not switch or buy P+. That would equate to the size of current Belli urban sprawl which already is huge.

As to mesh uploads, it depends and, to be honest if LL do it, it will be to the detriment of user experience as well as LL retention. Textures, animations and audio uploads are easy to remove the fee for as they are a stock standard 10L$ and controlled by set sizes. Mesh uploads however are done in a way that the more complex the mesh is the higher the upload cost. This isn't the normal upload fee money sink but a method (in theory) in which LL can control/limit the amount of unoptimised mesh that is uploaded. The more unoptimised/complex the mesh the higher the impact which in turn means the higher the mesh upload cost. This means a creator not willing to pay the larger amount will tweak their mesh to reduce the upload cost.

Considering that you can already abuse the LOD settings to reduce LI even if the model is complex, such a move as removing fees would further exacerbate the issue.

Removing this upload fee is a double edged sword. On the one side the removal of mesh upload fees allows for a larger uptake of P+ due to the benefit/perk especially for creators, however, on the other side it severely impacts the limited controls LL have on reducing unoptimised mesh (which is already abused) and in turn may potentially cause more lag in SL.

[Jules Catlyn]

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I can not say it is wrong to be disappointed. And discussing it. I know we have nothing to say, LL decides it no matter what. But it is a discussion forum.

I am not saying that it is wrong to be disappointed at all. My initial response was that i thought it was rather expensive as well. The fact that i am always amazed about is that people express disappointment but then right away also put a price on how that disappointment can be mitigated. If i am disappointed, i am disappointed. No amount can fix it that moment.

[Love Zhaoying]

12 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

^^ This. 

I went back and listened to the meeting video again -- the April Web User's Group meeting.  Someone asked if cost would be 'close to double Premium' and Reed said it 'might be close to double the cost'.  When I hear a phrase like that, to me it implies the cost will be "not quite" double the cost.  Apparently, to LL "might be close to double the cost" means 2.5 times more.

Maybe LL is just really bad at "the Maths". Also in evidence are:

- LI calculations

- Tier fee structures

- Support hours vs. "Rest of the World"

- Frame rates

- etc.

Option B: LL thinks WE are really bad at "the Maths".

[Coffee Pancake]

They refuse to be open with us about plans and ideas when they are in the developmental phase because they have a track record of failing to deliver.

This push back here is just going to make them pull back even more and be less inclined to talk to us.

When really want we need is more bi lateral communication.

 

We're the customers. We have the money. We have the needs. Their provision of services shouldn't be a furtive game of hinting and hype, especially when it's directed by people who don't use the platform like we do and have a long track record of dropping the ball.

We don't need more ways to make more money for LL. 

(Sorry Wolfsome Overlord, thinking about SL 24/7 counts for nothing .. I think about cheesecake a lot, doubt that improves cheesecake for anyone)

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

They refuse to be open with us about plans and ideas when they are in the developmental phase because they have a track record of failing to deliver.

This push back here is just going to make them pull back even more and be less inclined to talk to us.

When really want we need is more bi lateral communication.

 

We're the customers. We have the money. We have the needs. Their provision of services shouldn't be a furtive game of hinting and hype, especially when it's directed by people who don't use the platform like we do and have a long track record of dropping the ball.

We don't need more ways to make more money for LL. 

(Sorry Wolfsome Overlord, thinking about SL 24/7 counts for nothing .. I think about cheesecake a lot, doubt that improves cheesecake for anyone)

Maybe we can get them to stop using the word "soon", as it is meaningless and no longer "cute" or "funny".

 

[Chic Aeon]

The only thing in this package REALLY worth noting IMO is the possibility of 1048 McMansions in Belli.   Belli has VERY obviously been the best decision The Lab has made in a decade or more. And since that "possibility" isn't even "expected" until the end of this year I can't really see folks lining up to pay an extra 150 for more prims in an old Belli house.  If WE all saw (well many of us) that the 2048 lot size was THE BIG DEAL in all of this, and since it took two years more or less to P+ to come into fruition it SEEMS like they could have made those lots and bigger houses within that two year time frame.  THEN P+ would have a chance. 

 

Just like the event regions didn't take off because of high fees it seems like P+ will have a very slow start. Maybe by next year when there are more things actually added AND if they don't raise the price BECAUSE of those things it might gain some ground.

I think it is very important for folks AND THE LAB to remember that anyone can have a perfectly PERFECT Second Life and be a valuable member of the community AND make and spend linden dollars and support the economy WITHOUT being Premium.  Except for my one year with the "Belli Experience" which I totally enjoyed, I have been a basic member. 

[BelindaN]

All I can add to what's been said, is that the PP is more than I would pay right now. I love my LL houseboat, but in the last few weeks, a lot of the houseboats around mine have emptied. Don't know whether this is because people are moving to some of the newer locations, or if there's a reduction of premium subscribers.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

The only thing in this package REALLY worth noting IMO is the possibility of 1048 McMansions in Belli. 

You just know that the Real Housewives of Belliseria would do anything for McManses.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I think it is very important for folks AND THE LAB to remember that anyone can have a perfectly PERFECT Second Life and be a valuable member of the community AND make and spend linden dollars and support the economy WITHOUT being Premium. 

^^^THIS. There's no "second-class citizens" in Second Life. All kidding aside.

[Kylie Jaxxon]

3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

The only thing in this package REALLY worth noting IMO is the possibility of 1048 McMansions in Belli.   Belli has VERY obviously been the best decision The Lab has made in a decade or more.

Whomever brought the Belli idea to the table, hope he/she got a huge raise....for sure, it's a big moneymaker for LL

[Kylie Jaxxon]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

They refuse to be open with us about plans and ideas when they are in the developmental phase because they have a track record of failing to deliver.

This push back here is just going to make them pull back even more and be less inclined to talk to us.

When really want we need is more bi lateral communication.

 

We're the customers. We have the money. We have the needs. Their provision of services shouldn't be a furtive game of hinting and hype, especially when it's directed by people who don't use the platform like we do and have a long track record of dropping the ball.

We don't need more ways to make more money for LL. 

(Sorry Wolfsome Overlord, thinking about SL 24/7 counts for nothing .. I think about cheesecake a lot, doubt that improves cheesecake for anyone)

With all due respect....I've been here since 2007, through a multitude of changes, plans, ideas, etc from LL.  In some cases, I don't blame them.  I've seen them hounded with questions, ridiculous ideas thrown at them, criticisms and so forth.  I get that they don't want to answer certain things repeatedly and suffer from blowback all the time.  They are under no obligation to discuss future plans/ideas.  Linden Lab is a company.  Just like all others, their focus is the bottom line and what makes them money.  Sure, it's a balancing act for profit and still keeping people around, but it's all about the might $ in the end.  

[Paul Hexem]

6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Maybe LL is just really bad at "the Maths".

Didn't I say that in the other thread too?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

Didn't I say that in the other thread too?

Those darn thoughts just feel original sometimes, sorry!

[Coffee Pancake]

11 minutes ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

With all due respect....I've been here since 2007, through a multitude of changes, plans, ideas, etc from LL.  In some cases, I don't blame them.  I've seen them hounded with questions, ridiculous ideas thrown at them, criticisms and so forth.  I get that they don't want to answer certain things repeatedly and suffer from blowback all the time.  They are under no obligation to discuss future plans/ideas.  Linden Lab is a company.  Just like all others, their focus is the bottom line and what makes them money.  Sure, it's a balancing act for profit and still keeping people around, but it's all about the might $ in the end.  

Been here is 2006 .. LL have a huge problem when it comes to understanding the nature of the beast they accidentally created and managing expectations related to how it should grow to meet changing needs. For the most part they do not use the product in the way we do, or even in the ways they hope people would. They are blind to all but the broadest strokes and terrified to change anything in case that happened to be the magic bullet and this all evaporates overnight.

They have spent much of SL's history wringing their collective hands and trying to find something (anything) else to spend the money on, and have seemed terrified to commit to bigger long term SL specific development projects that are now so far overdue it's laughable. Case in point would be the way the viewer is CPU bound and performs terribly as a result. During SL's life span we have gone from single core processers to massively multicore machines being the norm, can SL use any of this extra processing capability we all have .. nope, and it might even be to little too late to even try now.

Sansar was a real look into inner thinking of LL, and they missed the mark by an astounding margin, getting it wrong in just about every way possible. The result was a product that literally no one used and took significant focus away from advancing Second Life (as in it literally peeled off developers and left SL with a skeleton staff). The entire premise was flawed, and not just because of VR problems, the platform was intended for very different people with very different use cases .. who turned out not to exist. 

The metaverse is happening, big tech companies are starting to lean in and work on common standards, and while it's easy to claim SL did it all first, LL are not at the table. 

Once up a time we evangelized, we drove the massive surges in growth because this place represented an astounding potential. These days, can you even bring up Second Life in conversation with people who aren't already here and invested without feeling judged for doing so.

Where do they see SL in 5 years .. exactly where it is now. 

Tilia has a CEO. Second Life does not. Which one do you think they see as having a future.

 

We need a deep systemic revamp and upgrades to almost all the existing systems, we need a massive expansion of capability to create and socialize, we need a complete overhaul of the entire asset-fetch-decode-render pipeline, we need to grow beyond this tiny walled garden and become the ubiquitous standard for virtual worlds, we need a comprehensive vision for the future of this platform taking it's rightful and hard earnt place as the metaverse.

Most importantly we need to recognize that the people who occupy SL are not the broken few prepared to look past the flaws and the jank, but represent the tip of a far larger mass who share all the same hopes and dreams and flaws as we do.

SL has the power to be truly transformative, but to recognize and aspire to that goal requires LL to step up with bold leadership and vision.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

At the "extra" $49 more then thought, we should get 4096 sq.m free land credit instead of the 2048 sq.m. Hope the Lab can rethink that.

My man mentioned the big cost reminds him of a game he used to play called Rappelz, where their current publish jacked up prices on many virtual items in their shop.

[Kylie Jaxxon]

@Coffee Pancake  Although I am not tech savvy at all, and don't interact or attend community meetings, I do agree with all you say.  This place erupted into something that they never thought of at the beginning.  I am amazed that it has survived as long as it has, and I believe it has done so, only because of people like you & I who are too stubborn to give up on it, lol.  Even as uneducated as I am in this field, I feel this place needs a complete retooling, from the bottom up to keep viable in the future.  Not sure they will take that expense on.

My previous comment was aimed more at the interaction here, among us forum regulars and the moles, Lindens who grace us with their presence & comments.  I almost feel they are better off not saying anything...it seems to get them in hot water a lot.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Kylie Jaxxon
Missed a word :P

[Coffee Pancake]

52 minutes ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

@Coffee Pancake  Although I am not tech savvy at all, and don't interact or attend community meetings, I do agree with all you say.  This place erupted into something that they never thought of at the beginning.  I am amazed that it has survived as long as it has, and I believe it has done so, only because of people like you & I who are too stubborn to give up on it, lol. 

I knew in my first week I had found a true diamond in the rough and would be here right till the very end. Everyone gets jaded and disappointed in SL as it fails to live up to initial heady expectations, not everyone can take a step back and recognize that if its ever going to meet those hope and dreams, they are going to have to stay.

 

There needs to be a new paradigm for Linden Customer communication.

A Linden pops up and says "I have an idea, would this be cool? What do you think?" Lets the thread rumble on for a week and then comes back with an updated idea that takes in the feedback and offers a refined and realistic solution .. we all rumble on for a week, rinse and repeat. Maybe the idea grows into 3 different ideas, but in the end, we get that communication and a clear expectation.

Imagine the thread if @Patch Linden popped up and asked "What lindy home themes would you like to see .. " it would be chaos, but not unproductive. Came back a week later with a new thread that narrowed it down to a few choices and asked for concept art to help flesh things out .. and a week later finished with a poll .. and let us just vote on the future theme, a theme we all had a hand in shaping. Being able to wade though the trash and find the gold is never going to be easy, true consensus is impossible, but the journey together is a far more important goal than the actual end result. We all gain perspective. We all feel involved. We're all in this together. There will always be next time.

LL really need to leverage the enormous love and dedication people have for this platform, especially when that motivates and inspires us to action. Linden homes is a taste of what that inspired action can look like.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Liaa Nova]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I knew in my first week I had found a true diamond in the rough and would be here right till the very end. Everyone gets jaded and disappointed in SL as it fails to live up to initial heady expectations, not everyone can take a step back and recognize that if its ever going to meet those hope and dreams, they are going to have to stay.

 

There needs to be a new paradigm for Linden Customer communication.

A Linden pops up and says "I have an idea, would this be cool? What do you think?" Lets the thread rumble on for a week and then comes back with an updated idea that takes in the feedback and offers a refined and realistic solution .. we all rumble on for a week, rinse and repeat. Maybe the idea grows into 3 different ideas, but in the end, we get that communication and a clear expectation.

Imagine the thread if @Patch Linden popped up and asked "What lindy home themes would you like to see .. " it would be chaos, but not unproductive. Came back a week later with a new thread that narrowed it down to a few choices and asked for concept art to help flesh things out .. and a week later finished with a poll .. and let us just vote on the future theme, a theme we all had a hand in shaping. Being able to wade though the trash and find the gold is never going to be easy, true consensus is impossible, but the journey together is a far more important goal than the actual end result. We all gain perspective. We all feel involved. We're all in this together. There will always be next time.

LL really need to leverage the enormous love and dedication people have for this platform, especially when that motivates and inspires us to action. Linden homes is a taste of what that inspired action can look like.

Totally agree

[Vichonette Constantine]

The only part of this I even care about is having more group space.  The rest of it isn't anywhere near worth three times what I'm paying now.

[Coffee Pancake]

11 minutes ago, Vichonette Constantine said:

The only part of this I even care about is having more group space.  The rest of it isn't anywhere near worth three times what I'm paying now.

Put your better / paid groups on your main, put the ones you don't care about chat and just want the notices from on an alt.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

Even as uneducated as I am in this field, I feel this place needs a complete retooling, from the bottom up to keep viable in the future.  Not sure they will take that expense on.

Folks have been saying that for a decade at least -- and to be sort of fair The Lab did try with Sansar. In my mind that kind of proved (to me anyway although I wasn't doubting) that it isn't the tech that makes the platform but the people and the creativity and let's also say "freedom". 

 

Sansar had outstanding tech and yes, my stuff (same stuff) looked much better there. And clothes that automatically fit (for the most part anyway)?  That was a joy.  It had so very many things going for it and yet it basically failed.  If we just kept the world exactly as it is now (well honestly I would prefer the  pre-EEP model), we would be fine for another decade.  If you were here ten years ago, you likely know that we were having just as much fun or more back then without all the new bells and whistles. 

 

[Alazarin Mondrian]

As an oldbie with a grandfathered account that pays for itself, the deal for P+ doesn't stack up so I'll pass. Nice idea though. Probably more useful for busy content creators.