Requesting an LGBTQ+ sub forum.

[Codex Alpha]

9 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

That's fair.

I'm not sure if you've seen it yet, but here's LL's announcement and their first page, which I referenced in my first post on Page 2 - 

LL's blog post announcing the feature

The actual community page they posted

In theory,I have no issues with this sort of thing.

In practice, the term 'community' scares me now, because by experience 'community' and 'family' and 'inclusivity' usually means I'm excluded. So good luck with that.

See all of us can be discouraged, traumatized as well when one group gets more attention than the other, or special treatment. After 2 years of being 'excluded' in real life, having my income destroyed and opportunities destroyed, savings destroyed and starting from scratch - I know full well what a 'safe space' can do,  I learned both of these on virtual platforms that failed in the past and in real life events.

Edited April 17, 2022 by entity0x

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

charming if somewhat naïve

I would accept that description of my online self as a compliment! 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

sock-puppetry of the forums

I think there's a disdain for it because some feel the additional fake support is not fair -- like they are trying to be more powerful via having others giving them likes or verbal support.  There's also some who do this to troll and confuse.

However, usually I read it to mean a person is feeling a lack of confidence and needs help, and ushers in another or a crew at times...

Also, I've known a couple people with Dissociative Identity Disorder who didn't know they were switching -- conflict became too much and boom, they came back as another.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, entity0x said:

In theory,I have no issues with this sort of thing.

In practice, the term 'community' scares me now, because by experience 'community' and 'family' and 'inclusivity' usually means I'm excluded. So good luck with that.

I don't think that's LL's intent. 

"Each of these pages will celebrate Residents in all different communities, and showcase the meaningful experiences that strengthen the social fabric of Second Life. This will include stories, quotes, photos, videos, and more — all directly from Second Life Residents."

Right now, we don't really know what will be included, which was what much of that thread about the announcement discussed. Maybe they'll do one for one of the communities you find yourself in, too. Maybe not. We really don't know (yet).

I personally think adding a forum to the project might be a good idea - but of course, that could change depending on the next community page released. Maybe they'll do...I dunno...rock music fans, and then that might not flow so well within a community sub forum. At that point, I'd still support Coffee's idea - just not tied to that specific project.

Also, do note that LL specifically did say in their blog post that they wanted resident input, so if you have a community you'd want highlighted, let em know!

[Codex Alpha]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I don't think that's LL's intent. 

"Each of these pages will celebrate Residents in all different communities, and showcase the meaningful experiences that strengthen the social fabric of Second Life. This will include stories, quotes, photos, videos, and more — all directly from Second Life Residents."

Right now, we don't really know what will be included, which was what much of that thread about the announcement discussed. Maybe they'll do one for one of the communities you find yourself in, too. Maybe not. We really don't know (yet).

I personally think adding a forum to the project might be a good idea - but of course, that could change depending on the next community page released. Maybe they'll do...I dunno...rock music fans, and then that might not flow so well within a community sub forum. At that point, I'd still support Coffee's idea - just not tied to that specific project.

Also, do note that LL specifically did say in their blog post that they wanted resident input, so if you have a community you'd want highlighted, let em know!

Excuse my cynicism, but it would result in a yet another spotlight of Raspberry Singh, or yet another spotlight on Bryn Oh, and all the typical names. Why would I and other average users care.

Community meant those 'in the loop' and not the rest of us in practice, so I am very skeptical.

Edited April 17, 2022 by entity0x

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, entity0x said:

spotlight of Raspberry Singh

You are berry confused     

Ok with that bad joke I'm off....

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, entity0x said:

Excuse my cynicism, but it would result in a yet another spotlight of Raspberry Singh, or yet another spotlight on Bryn Oh, and all the typical names. Why would I and other average users care.

Community meant those 'in the loop' and not the rest of us in practice, so I am very skeptical.

Not necessarily. Take a good look at the page I posted (the second link). There's a whole list of business owners there, for example. And sims to visit. Quotes by residents. Events. Etc. It's not all highlighting just one person.

Also, we're expected to submit our own ideas to the team when they're ready to accept submissions. "If you would like to submit content for a page, please keep an eye out for announcements on specific community pages, as there will be a (google form) open to the public for each of them. Please understand that due to the volume of submissions, not all content will be published, but we appreciate your input."

I mean, I did say I wasn't really feeling that project myself, so I understand your cynicism. I do want to see more before making a final judgment on the whole thing. I just think if they're gonna do it, adding a community sub forum in addition isn't really a huge step.

[Madelaine McMasters]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

14 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

How do you know that "so many report posts or threads"? LL doesn't reveal such things and most of the people who've admitted to reporting claim to do so quite sparingly.

There are a few tell tale signs including posters mentioning a post or thread should be closed and locked as well the IBTL! posts that sometimes start appearing just before a thread is actually locked. Then there is the ones thanking and liking the Moderators closing post that give a pretty good indication who and how many are quite happy with a thread closing. Concrete evidence no but circumstantial evidence can be a pretty good indicator.

An ability to recognize conditions that will lead to a lock is hardly evidence of a desire for the lock. Do you also see popcorn as circumstantial evidence? It pairs well with IBTL, but suggests the munchers are not anxious for the entertainment to end. I have thanked moderators for closing threads in which people I agree with were hurting the cause by running too hot. Once again, correlation is not causation.

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

14 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

There's probably some of that at play, Malibu, but I don't think that's the whole story. Some of the anti sub-forum contingent are LGBTQ+. Still, they imagine vitriolic bogeymen coming for their freedoms, and will rail against anything that even rhymes with that. I get the sense that empathy is a factor, and the presence or absence of that is fairly independent of gender identity and sexual orientation.

Your turn to conjecture? I haven't seen anyone yet posit that something would be lost if we did have a LGBQT+ forum area so maybe your could link to ones that lead you to this belief? One thing though that is being lost as a result of this thread is any sense of LGBTQ unity where we have two groups in disagreement about a need for it.

Empathy is a funny thing in that it is personal for each and what may make you laugh might make me cry and what makes me say pfft has you ready to fight the good fight. All dependent on our respective past experiences and how someone else's experience may impact on it.

Several posters have described the creation of a sub forum as an attempt to exclude, divide, or restrict via moderation, even when Coffee and others have explicitly stated that's not the goal. If we believe Coffee's actually attempting those things when she isn't, we're looking at bogeymen and claiming deception. Her ire in response wouldn't be surprising.

On the other side, people who've a history of being harassed, marginalized, and excluded might not grasp just how that's happening, but they aren't seeing bogeymen.

If I ignore what I've seen here and believe your claim that nobody has posited something would be lost if the sub forum were created, why is there disagreement?

I also wonder (conjecture) if some people might see this as a threat because they skate over the edge of ToS already and don't wish that to be further illuminated. I am one of the forum's most prolific posters, butting heads with others for over 12 years. I've never been suspended and have had two posts pulled for sneaking naughty words past the filters. I don't see the creation of a sub forum of any kind as threatening my ability to speak freely. The ToS is no burden to me and I have no desire to leverage moderation via AR. This is LL's house.

The sides that have dug in here are approximately the same as those that dig in on other discussions. I don't think many of us are surprised to see where the likes, thank yous, and scorn laughter come from. You and I can generally count on each other to butt heads, and might appear to be in out-groups that don't actually exist. I think that's at work in this thread, meaning that LGBTQ+ is not the only factor in play.

[Paul Hexem]

11 hours ago, CarlaWetter said:

This whole 'discussion' here does mainly show one thing, that bigot feelings and bogeymen of culture wars indeed rank so much higher for certain circles than tolerance and acceptance. Which, in my opinion, does absolutely confirm the positive need of the requested LGBTQ+ forum, not to diminish any other minority or perceived majority, but to give this certain collection of minorities another piece of acceptance we allegedly have all over the place.

I'd like to point out that if you call people that disagree with you bigots, they're probably going to be less open to discussion. 

10 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

In your case, I think it's more playing devil's advocate than any real objection. 😋

I do really enjoy that role. For example...

8 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This only serves as a visceral reminder of why an LGBTQ+ forum is needed. While those posts are permitted and left standing in existing forums and inevitably incite pushback from the wider community, in an explicitly LGBTQ+ forum they could simply be reported and removed, preserving both the intent and purpose of the thread.

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the proposed subforum would benefit if there were moderation specifically for sock-puppetry.

See, that's where I'm stuck, and why I keep coming back to it. Why do we think they'll be better at moderating a new one than this current one?

[Luna Bliss]

24 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

10 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

In your case, I think it's more playing devil's advocate than any real objection. 😋

I do really enjoy that role. For example...

9 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This only serves as a visceral reminder of why an LGBTQ+ forum is needed. While those posts are permitted and left standing in existing forums and inevitably incite pushback from the wider community, in an explicitly LGBTQ+ forum they could simply be reported and removed, preserving both the intent and purpose of the thread.

Expand  

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the proposed subforum would benefit if there were moderation specifically for sock-puppetry.

See, that's where I'm stuck, and why I keep coming back to it. Why do we think they'll be better at moderating a new one than this current one?

Playing devil's advocate can be fun, true. But you do need to have a grasp of the issues and a degree of intelligence to play it.

[Paul Hexem]

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Playing devil's advocate can be fun, true. But you do need to have a grasp of the issues and a degree of intelligence to play it.

I know you are but what am I? Neener neener. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

38 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Why do we think they'll be better at moderating a new one than this current one?

I don't think it's a matter of "better."

Moderation here is contextual. If someone posts a scripting question in the relationships forum, it gets moved because that is an inappropriate place for it.

An LGBTQ+ subforum would have its own context, different from that of the Relationships or Lifestyles or General Discussion forums. Moderation that recognizes that isn't new or special or even better: it is simply what already happens elsewhere now.

[Coffee Pancake]

38 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

See, that's where I'm stuck, and why I keep coming back to it. Why do we think they'll be better at moderating a new one than this current one?

If you post off topic content the scripting forum, it's either removed or relocated in no short order.

Moderation as enacted on the forums isn't the problem, it's the extremely broad scope of the General & Lifestyle forums tolerating all opinions, even those detrimental and demeaning.

The Non Binary thread was done after 2 pages, instead it was permitted to careen into victim blaming, accusations of persecution complexes, forcing LGBTQ+ views, attacks on free speech, WW3 and "bigger problems", gaslighting, JAQing off, reeducation camps, defiance, belittling, pedantry, deathcamps, legal protections, more freeze peach, privilege, documenting logical fallacies, 1 warning from a mole and blatant "i identify as" transphobia that got removed and the rest.

Moderation permitted the conversation to run on and on because that is how General operates.

In an LGBTQ+ forum, the same question would have been answered as it was in 2 pages, attempts to derail the question into the sprawling "only LGBTQ thread in a while so lets attack it under the guise of discussion" would not have been permitted.

The OP will likely never come back to the forums.

 

So I state yet again. Moderation isn't the issue. Scope is.

An LGBTQ+ forum would reduce the scope for debate and provide a space where LGBTQ+ questions and experiences could be raised without the intentional derailment and thinly veiled "oh so original" phobia.

Notice I am asking for a single sub forum with a tighter scope, I am not requesting that LL take an aggressively pro LGBTQ+ stance on all threads everywhere on the forums or seeking to constrain opposing opinions outside of an explicitly LGBTQ+ friendly space.

 

[Rowan Amore]

I liked the idea proposed of a Community Forum section with the various sub forums which could include LGBTA+, people of color, Furries, BDSM, Family, etc.   If there is nothing that a person is interested in, they may not even bother looking there.  I keep the Land and International sections compressed and only peek in now and then.  

They could use the suggestions given for their Community pages to decide which sub forums fall under the broader Community forum. It was @Ayashe Ninetails's suggestion and a good one.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

I do really enjoy that role. For example...

[Ayashe Ninetails]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I liked the idea proposed of a Community Forum section with the various sub forums which could include LGBTA+, people of color, Furries, BDSM, Family, etc.   If there is nothing that a person is interested in, they may not even bother looking there.  I keep the Land and International sections compressed and only peek in now and then.  

They could use the suggestions given for their Community pages to decide which sub forums fall under the broader Community forum. It was @Ayashe Ninetails's suggestion and a good one.

Thanks Rowan! I thought that maybe if we tied the idea to something LL was already doing, it might increase the chances of it happening.

If anyone else has any ideas for where it could fit, definitely post those, too.

[Mollymews]

On 4/16/2022 at 12:54 PM, entity0x said:

Empathy can't be enforced or required at the end of a gun of the State, or the banhammer of a platform governance

just note that the banhammer is not about empathy, is about enforcing morality

morality meaning that which is defined as acceptable behaviour in the Linden Community Standards section of the ToS

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

7 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Why do we think they'll be better at moderating a new one than this current one?

Why do "we" think they'll be worse, or the same? (You used "we", old quote: "Who's 'we', got a mouse in your pocket?")

Edited April 18, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

7 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

18 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

In your case, I think it's more playing devil's advocate than any real objection. 😋

I do really enjoy that role.

And this is supposed to be helpful?

[Garnet Psaltery]

I'm not a part of this particular Community but I've been reading the topic for my own education and to get some ideas for another sub-forum which I'd look at regularly.  Forgive me if this has already been mentioned as a possible use but I'm thinking it could be very helpful for organising gatherings, celebrations, or parties, especially for people in different time-zones.  Also I can't be the only one who's spent hours looking into inworld groups and finding most of them defunct.  It would be nice to be able to avoid that by perhaps having reports from groups that are active.  You will of course have many ideas about what you want and need, and I hope this resource becomes available for you.  I expect most people will simply not look in if they're not interested, and troublemakers shouldn't be too hard to spot.  That's about all I had to say so I'll go back to lurking.  

[Sid Nagy]

10 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Moderation here is contextual.

Eh....
I find the words partial and at whim (depening on who is on duty that is) more suitable and that's why I agree with Paul.
Expecting a better or another moderating in the desired sub forum is more wishful thinking, than reality I'm afraid. LL will not hire special moderators for that new section.
Only thing that we will most likely  'gain' is that we get a LGBTQ+ stamp on our heads.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Katherine Heartsong]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:14 PM, Stephanie Lovely said:

Women are murdered just for being women all the time, and experience discrimination just for being women all the time. 

True, violence against women is an epidemic and a sign men need to have better upbringings and role models. That said ...violence against trans and gay women occurs at a 400% higher rate than cis-women (source: UCLA Law School report, PFLAG). And for trans women of colour, it's even higher.

• Transgender people (16+) are victimized over four times more often than cisgender people. In 2017-2018, transgender people experienced 86.2 victimizations per 1,000 people compared to 21.7 victimizations per 1,000 people for cisgender people.
• Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively).

Edited April 18, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

True, violence against women is an epidemic and a sign men need to have better upbringings and role models. That said ...violence against trans and gay women occurs at a 400% higher rate than cis-women (source: UCLA Law School report, PFLAG). And for trans women of colour, it's even higher.

• Transgender people (16+) are victimized over four times more often than cisgender people. In 2017-2018, transgender people experienced 86.2 victimizations per 1,000 people compared to 21.7 victimizations per 1,000 people for cisgender people.
• Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively).

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/17/native-americans-lgbtq-violence-survey-california

The Sovereign Bodies Institute and the California Rural Indian Health Board, released a report this month highlighting the issue in California, which has more people of Native American or Alaska Native heritage than any other state in the US, according to the most recent census.

The report found that of the 18 respondents who identified as Native LGBTQ2, 60% experienced domestic violence and 40% experienced child abuse. But perhaps most alarming was that almost all had experienced sexual assault and nearly 90% had experienced two or more forms of violence.

“We know that Native people are targeted for violence because of racial stereotypes, jurisdictional complexities that in a general culture of lawlessness is created when law enforcement don’t respond meaningfully to crimes against Native people,” said Annita Lucchesi, a Cheyenne descendant and the founding executive director of the Sovereign Bodies Institute.

“On top of that, law enforcement agencies especially can be a good ol’ boys club and can be very hyper-masculine, and are not necessarily spaces that are going to be welcoming or safe or supportive to folks in different gender and sexual identities,” she added.

Comprehensive research and data on the issue is extremely limited. Lucchesi said there are few safe spaces for members of the community to share their experiences, as well as the homophobia and transphobia that is built into victim services, law enforcement and even data collection.

[Kristin Linden]

Hey folks!

Since this thread continues to delve back into the territory of inappropriate bickering and other topics that are out of the scope of the Second Life Forums, I’m going to go ahead and close this thread.

However, I do want to thank y’all for your honest feedback! While we are currently not seeking to add even more sections to the forums (because hoooboy there’s a lot already), we will take the feedback here into consideration if we do at some point in the future.