performance I think we should, collectively, be somewhat embarassed.

[Gavin Hird]

3 hours ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Suddenly trying to derail? Well then... How about this: Works fine here - go fix your crappy hardware! 😛

Listen, if you develop for a platform you make the best out of it and stop crapping on its users. If not, make it easy for yourself and drop the support for the platform. Nobody likes a developer spitting on its users. (Another reason why FS on the Mac sucks)

You sound just like Balmer crapping on Microsoft Office for Mac which is 100% developed by Microsoft. 

 

But do you know what the worst thing is? 

Not only are you crapping on your own users, but you are also telling Linden Lab customers they are inferior and should go away. A lot of whom are profitable customers for LL and SL content creators.

If I was a Linden business manager or marketing manager, I would tell you to take a hike, despite your many contributions to the viewer code. Telling customers they are inferior is not valuable to anyone. – Not even to you.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Gavin Hird

[SodaGnome]

nvidea noice!

[Kathrine Jansma]

14 hours ago, Monty Linden said:

I want to meet the Windows Server person.

Windows Server makes quite a decent workstation (unless you need Bluetooth support or other semi fancy stuff like that).

Had one running as a workstation for some years.

 

[Kathrine Jansma]

15 hours ago, animats said:

I do that in my experimental viewer. Everything starts out static. If it moves or changes, it's moved to "dynamic". All the static objects are divided into tiles (currently 16 tiles per region) and handled, to some extent, as a group. Dynamic objects get individual attention. This is in the early stages; it's not working yet.

Sounds a bit like the optimizing JIT compilers. Observing the scene and then specializing. But you do it the other way round, starting with static assumption and moving to dynamic once it happens.

[Ansariel Hiller]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:55 AM, Gavin Hird said:

Listen, if you develop for a platform you make the best out of it and stop crapping on its users. If not, make it easy for yourself and drop the support for the platform. Nobody likes a developer spitting on its users. (Another reason why FS on the Mac sucks)

You sound just like Balmer crapping on Microsoft Office for Mac which is 100% developed by Microsoft. 

 

But do you know what the worst thing is? 

Not only are you crapping on your own users, but you are also telling Linden Lab customers they are inferior and should go away. A lot of whom are profitable customers for LL and SL content creators.

If I was a Linden business manager or marketing manager, I would tell you to take a hike, despite your many contributions to the viewer code. Telling customers they are inferior is not valuable to anyone. – Not even to you.

Ohohoh, listen listen listen! It's not our fault Mac and Apple stuff in general is expensive broken crap! Are you mad yet? 😂

[Jackson Redstar]

Id tend to agree with the OP, you don't get alot for your upgrade money in SL. But then again, it is what it is. Just the way SL is

What might be helpful I think, with SL as it is right now, is if anybody that really understands what is going on under the hood could make a list (if any) tweaks in debug settings that might be useful for people with the latest processors, graphic cards, etc. While it is nice to have access to those settings, for most people it is like having access to the settings of a modern car computer and told to 'make it perform better". Or, since a majority of SL users are MS users, if there are any tweaks in Win 11 that might help SL perform better on modern hardware.

SL is still pretty  amazing considering is was written at a time when most were still on dial up and those that did have broad band were like 1 - 2 mbs and maybe  had a 'high end' 256mb graphics card and 2 gigs of ram

[Coffee Pancake]

28 minutes ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Ohohoh, listen listen listen! It's not our fault Mac and Apple stuff in general is expensive broken crap! Are you mad yet? 😂

For what you get, it's not expensive. The only criticism I have is that Apple's spread of the budget can over emphasize different parts of the hardware over what I might have preferred if I was in charge of every last detail.

The M1 Air is the single best self contained computing experience I have ever had (and I have an absurd amount of computing hardware going back 40 years). It packs a huge punch, has battery life that just keeps going, has no fans and is completely silent, gorgeous accurate screen and Monterey ties everything together beautifully. It's an objectively excellent machine that can stand toe to toe with PC laptops up to double it's price.

Sure, the SL experience isn't as good as it could be, but at this point, that's not the hardware's fault.

[Gavin Hird]

46 minutes ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Ohohoh, listen listen listen! It's not our fault Mac and Apple stuff in general is expensive broken crap! Are you mad yet? 😂

As long as you develop for the Apple platform, your statement sounds moronic. If you don't like or hate the platform, why do you even make code for it? 

The stupidest thing you can do it take it out on your users. Address your grievances in the Apple developer forums or at the WWDC where you actually have the opportunity to talk with the creators of the machines and system software.

[anitabush]

2 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

Id tend to agree with the OP, you don't get alot for your upgrade money in SL. But then again, it is what it is. Just the way SL is

What might be helpful I think, with SL as it is right now, is if anybody that really understands what is going on under the hood could make a list (if any) tweaks in debug settings that might be useful for people with the latest processors, graphic cards, etc. While it is nice to have access to those settings, for most people it is like having access to the settings of a modern car computer and told to 'make it perform better". Or, since a majority of SL users are MS users, if there are any tweaks in Win 11 that might help SL perform better on modern hardware.

SL is still pretty  amazing considering is was written at a time when most were still on dial up and those that did have broad band were like 1 - 2 mbs and maybe  had a 'high end' 256mb graphics card and 2 gigs of ram

It is pretty amazing, I just worry about the future if things don’t change. To lose SL would be terribly sad 

[Aishagain]

Speaking entirely for myself I am SICK AND TIRED of this cross-platform spite.  Perhaps the best solution would be for the chief proponents here to get their collective arses into  gear and work TOGETHER instead of hurling insults and heavily biassed factoids at each other.

People who like Apple, like Apple and their reasons are what they are.  People (and this includes me for really no good reason) who dislike Apple and their operating systems and expensive (in the EU and the UK) equipment, dislike Apple.  End of.

[Gavin Hird]

51 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

Speaking entirely for myself I am SICK AND TIRED of this cross-platform spite.  Perhaps the best solution would be for the chief proponents here to get their collective arses into  gear and work TOGETHER instead of hurling insults and heavily biassed factoids at each other.

People who like Apple, like Apple and their reasons are what they are.  People (and this includes me for really no good reason) who dislike Apple and their operating systems and expensive (in the EU and the UK) equipment, dislike Apple.  End of.

I agree but what we have here is a TPV developer who totally misunderstand it's role. 

We are talking about the Firestorm users, who are users of the Firestorm team's product, BUT they are not their customers. 

They are Linden Lab's customers, whom this TPV developer tell to go elsewhere unless they change their kit. – Something I find outrageous. 

Obviously they don't want to fix an issue there is a fix for, but ask the user to either compromise their system security to work around the issue or got get new kit. The obvious, immediate solution would be to advice the user to use the official SecondLife viewer that does not have this issue. 

Very many Mac users don't want anything to do with Microsoft for a range of reasons, and have deliberately chosen NOT to run Windows. So there is a double insult from this TPV to these users and Linden Lab customers.

FIN

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Gavin Hird

[Solar Legion]

Get. Over. Your. Collective. Selves.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

I got a wild idea,  how about apple get's it's head out of it's sandbox and releases osx for normal pc hardware and then tada!  instead of going "LALALAL" at normal people.

[Suzanna Soyinka]

3 hours ago, Aishagain said:

Speaking entirely for myself I am SICK AND TIRED of this cross-platform spite.  Perhaps the best solution would be for the chief proponents here to get their collective arses into  gear and work TOGETHER instead of hurling insults and heavily biassed factoids at each other.

People who like Apple, like Apple and their reasons are what they are.  People (and this includes me for really no good reason) who dislike Apple and their operating systems and expensive (in the EU and the UK) equipment, dislike Apple.  End of.

I'm kinda like this person. While I don't feel the Apple market share is a worthwhile reason to not further develop SL's capabilities for the PC userbase that is here, I don't see the point of being on any particular "team" when it comes to hardware or anything else.

Nothing about doing further development of SL's capabilities would somehow suddenly make MAC platforms any less capable than they are right now. And further development for architectures that support both PC and MAC would be something I'd like to see, because I want this platform to engage ALL user bases, whether its PC or MAC or Android or whatever. The more people we have coming in the door is the more people that in that percentage start creating and adding ideas to this big wild world of ours and its more support for the rest of us that do it already too.

I want SL to be better for all users, not just one specific hardware type. And there are many successful systems out there that are utilizing both MAC and PC very effectively cross platform in the modern age.

I mean wheres my love for Linux? Why do we keep having to compile our own clients? But you don't see me slagging people over it :D.

[anitabush]

I just find it terribly sad that some people seek out others to attack them based on what operating system they choose to use. It seems like one of the least important things in the world to hate someone over and yet here we are still. 
 

I just want an SL fit for the future on all platforms 

[NiranV Dean]

Well the OS plays a major part in how well any program runs and if anything we would choose one platform to migrate everyone to (one solution for everyone) and that would either be Windows (due to popularity, easy-to-use and compatibility) or Linux (if we chose performance over everything else). Making a single program run on multiple OSes is one thing, making it run well is a whole different story. Mac in this case isn't even mentioned due to its generally bad support, low userbase and generally bad hardware or in short bad compatibility (though the same could be said about Linux which is mostly just hampered by its small userbase in comparison to Windows). Mac is essentially what AMD is for GPU's when it comes to SL with Linux being a close second (at least in SL, compiling SL for linux is apparently hard, requires a lot more steps and preparation, a lot more very specific things and still has massive issues with the voice service SL uses).

The only "easy" solution i see here is having everyone on Windows and forgetting about everything else but then we are running into the issue that not everyone wants to use Windows. Even as Windows user i have to admit my defeat that if you are a niche user you will get next to no attention... Windows has had window focus issues and taskbar (set to autohide) issues since Windows 7 and they never fixed them because who the ***** uses an autohiding taskbar right? Same happens with less common OSes.

And its often easier to bash on the OS (i do that too because Mac/Apple really deserves it with their infinitely overpriced hardware, bad hardware and notoriously bad customer support... not to mention them reselling old features as new revolutionary things... thinking of when they introduced a feature that allows you to finally call people... like a PHONE) simply because it often actually IS the OSes fault (again mostly Apple... Linux just wants to be more sophisticated for advanced users which inevitably changes how things work and thus deviates it from the expectation that we call the norm). It's sad but there really is no solution, this is an unwinnable fight.

[Ardy Lay]

/me stares at OS/2 sitting quietly in the corner.

[Coffee Pancake]

27 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

/me stares at OS/2 sitting quietly in the corner.

Covets.

[Ardy Lay]

14 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Covets.

Heel, REXX!

[Henri Beauchamp]

19 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

compiling SL for linux is apparently hard, requires a lot more steps and preparation, a lot more very specific things and still has massive issues with the voice service SL uses

Wrong and wrong.

The viewer in fact compiles much easier than on other OSes:

• No need to install huge IDEs such Visual Studio + Python + cmake + Cygwin + whatever I forgot (for Windows), or Xcode + Macports + cmake + whatever else needed for macOS. You just need gcc and a few devel packages (a few check boxes to tick in your Linux distro package manager), if not already installed, and you are good to go in mere minutes !
• Only one script to start, i.e. one command to type only for the Cool VL Viewer: change to the viewer sources directory in a terminal and type ./linux-buid.sh. Go prepare a coffee, and 5 minutes later, when you come back with your coffee, the viewer is compiled and ready to run !

As for voice support, the TPVs providing a Linux viewer have it configured or configurable to use SLVoice.exe (Vivox Windows client) via Wine (here again, I provide a script to do all the installation and setting up for you, and this is only to be done once and for all, at the first viewer installation).

Like many people, you think ”Linux is hard” when it is in fact simpler and much more transparent than other OSes: for example you get way better clues reading an error message spewed out on a terminal by a Linux program, than looking puzzlingly at a stupid message box under Windoze with a cryptic hexadecimal error code as the only clue about what the Hell could have gone wrong !

Nowadays, installing, configuring and running Linux is not harder than installing, configuring and running Windows (in fact, it is simpler, if we speak about Windows 11 and all the patching necessary to install it on a PC which does not ”meet the requirements”, such as no UEFI, or no TPM).

[Wulfie Reanimator]

To this day I haven't been able to compile Firestorm or the official viewer on Windows, mainly due to problems with Visual Studio, while I've managed to compile both viewers on Linux. (I'm primarily a Windows user, not particularly savvy with Linux.)

[NiranV Dean]

2 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Wrong and wrong.

The viewer in fact compiles much easier than on other OSes:

• No need to install huge IDEs such Visual Studio + Python + cmake + Cygwin + whatever I forgot (for Windows), or Xcode + Macports + cmake + whatever else needed for macOS. You just need gcc and a few devel packages (a few check boxes to tick in your Linux distro package manager), if not already installed, and you are good to go in mere minutes !
• Only one script to start, i.e. one command to type only for the Cool VL Viewer: change to the viewer sources directory in a terminal and type ./linux-buid.sh. Go prepare a coffee, and 5 minutes later, when you come back with your coffee, the viewer is compiled and ready to run !

Well that's why i said "apparently". I do not compile for Linux i can only go by what i see from the developer mails i get and what i hear from other developers and all i hear is a lot of issues and a major headache with collecting the right library packages and having to have very specific setups in combination with the aforementioned libraries. I wouldn't even think about compiling for Linux as i hate terminal/cmd interfaces not to mention i was too stupid to install several of the big linux distros, i'm pretty confident that i wouldn't be able to compile a linux version of the official viewer (god forbid of my own viewer, that's apparently broken) unless there is a very clear step by step guide that explains everything down to the way i have to sit on my toilet and what rythm i have to breath in.

And yea i know Linux isn't all terminal/cmd, it has fancy GUI's too but before long you'll find yourself back in cmd to do anything the right way (not to mention compile the viewer, i hate compiling the viewer via cmd, i've never done it outside of Visual Studio... in fact it wouldn't even compile simply because the packaging process at the end fails which for some reason cleans out the entire project after it compiled everything)

Edited April 12, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[Michel Morningstar]

As a long time user of Macs (since 1984) I can confirm everything that Gavin said about them, on SL performance, on FS viewer for  Mac and on reasons not to use Windows.

I use the LL viewer because on a Mac I get a better performance with the LL viewer than with FS: less crashes, better image quality, better FPS. 

The 6.6.0.570163 Performance Improvement viewer basically doubled my performance wherever I go. Twice the fps, much faster loading, but with more ups and downs in fps when I move.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

17 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

As for voice support, the TPVs providing a Linux viewer have it configured or configurable to use SLVoice.exe (Vivox Windows client) via Wine (here again, I provide a script to do all the installation and setting up for you, and this is only to be done once and for all, at the first viewer installation).

This is confusing.

It seems to mean, "feature works great on Linux! You just have to use a Windows client."

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

This is confusing.

It seems to mean, "feature works great on Linux! You just have to use a Windows client."

That's exactly what was said. 🙂 Wine lets you run Windows apps on Linux.