New "Community Pages" for Second Life

[Mollymews]

from my life experience, the thought that multiculturalism means a melting pot can be true ish.  The ish is that the rate/pace of melt (or melding if preferred) is dictated by  the dominant culture. The dominant culture typically in turn being dominated by ethnicity as a matter/consequence of history

for example, in Aotearoa New Zealand where I live, the dominant ethnic culture is that of the settlers to whom governance over all the people was given by the once colonial imperial power. And is only after many generations that the melting/melding of native/indigenous ethnic culture has begun . A pace which has accelerated since the turn of the century

a danger with this is that it can lead to assimilation. The dominant culture only picking the elements they like/understand and embraces them. Ignoring or disregarding the elements they dislike or don't understand. When dig into 'don't understand' then we sometimes find that this comes from 'don't want to understand'. As having to go thru the activity of learning that which we don't understand can make us feel uncomfortable at times

what Linden are doing is a more true form of multiculturalism. More true meaning the way I understand multiculturalism. Which is: ethnic pluralism and the more broader grouping: cultural pluralism (the broader grouping cultural pluralism includes gender, age, orientation, religion/non, etc)

ethnic pluralism, like cultural pluralism, allows us to be ourselves in all of our ethnic and/or cultural respectivities, while at the same time understanding that we are together part of a greater nation of peoples, a nation to which we all belong

as I mentioned I live in Aotearoa New Zealand, Auckland city.  In our city there are multiple ethnicities and cultures. Each exists in their own right, doing their own thing within their communities, and is all good

 

 

[Bree Giffen]

This will be a good initiative if LL is able to keep every community page updated throughout the year. I've seen a few threads in the past where someone asks about a community in SL and we just point to a nebulous group in-world and cross our fingers. It would be good to point them to these pages which would send them to active places in-world.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

What I'm saying is, if a racist says "straight white people are the ones being marginalized by these woke companies" and other similar things, then we make community pages that exclude straight white communities and only feature RL minorities, we just proved them right. We risk swaying people to their cause.

You've described approximately how this effort would play out in my RL community, who've just tried to oust our school board (and might eventually succeed) and are trying to ban "offensive" books and any mention of CRT. That said, I don't think those people are flocking to SL. If SL already attracts the more accepting among us, is this effort preaching to the choir? If people come to SL to escape RL, is this preaching to the disinterested?

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

First impressions - I don't like this. I'm going through the community page mentioned in their blog post, and I'm just not feeling it (full disclosure - I am Black). What I DO like - it's cool to have a list of destinations and businesses around the grid for each community they plan to highlight. Things I don't like - too many to get into here.

Now, if this will extend into fantasy communities (will we get Mermaids? Furries? Orcs? Dragons? Aliens? Demons? Roleplayers? Birb-Owned Businesses in Second Life?), then maybe I'd feel less "meh" about it. A page showing me places I can go to find other mermaids doing mermaid things or showcasing up-and-coming furry creators would freakin' rock. That would be a lot more useful to me, personally, considering I spend more time in SL being pink, green, purple, and fuzzy than anything else.

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

On the other hand, like someone else said, if we feature actual SL communities like mermaids or furries, then this could be great.

We've already got two posters, one of them black, expressing interest in fantasy communities over "real" ones.

I'm gonna put on the most cynical of my many hats and say I'm surprised nobody mentioned fantasy role playing elephants, as I see one standing in this room. Let me propose some other communities who might appreciate representation: Police, military, physicians, clerics. Many of you have probably encountered people from these vocations. How'd that go?

Here's a quote from the Black Culture Community Page...

“My most memorable experiences came from roleplaying in a family. My SL mom, being a Black woman of Ghanian ancestry introduced me to her culture and made my time on this platform so much richer by giving me family and love. My roleplay daughter is Jamaican and quite honestly one of the brightest and funniest people I know. I'm forever thankful to her and all who have entered my life and stayed thus far.”
— Yanna Snow

A quick dig into Yanna Snow suggests she's the real deal, but I'm wearing my cynical hat. I could understand her quote to mean that she pretended to be in a family with a mom who pretended to be a black woman from Ghana and a daughter who pretended to be from Jamaica. In a real world were the line between fact and fiction grows increasingly hard to discern, do we really think that a virtual world intended to blur those lines is the best venue for... truth?

I have no answer to these questions, but it's my nature to ask them.

 

[Paul Hexem]

12 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That said, I don't think those people are flocking to SL. If SL already attracts the more accepting among us, is this effort preaching to the choir? If people come to SL to escape RL, is this preaching to the disinterested?

In a way, that's another argument for my point.

If we fight a battle that doesn't exist, we have to manufacture enemies out of people too. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Paul Hexem

[Prokofy Neva]

I think it's a good idea but there is indeed a built-in contradiction: while the subject is "communities," it is LL that is doing the curating and the choosing and the show-casing. So they describe it as "resident voices" -- but they aren't self-selected.

On the other hand, if they put up section heads on the forums, nobody might show up, and some would complain they aren't represented. 

It's a good idea to showcase Ukrainians in SL, but as someone who has covered the war in Ukraine for years and followed the topics of Eurasia for my whole life, and also maintains a list of RL country sims in SL, I have to say there aren't (yet) any (visible) organized Ukrainian sites. There are a few people who have out "Stand with Ukraine" on their stores (as I have). There are a few that put up discussion spaces on the war like the Confederation of Democratic Simulators (the socialists). I have a card at my store with the list of designers and artists who are Ukrainians to support. But I haven't seen an organized Ukrainian location as such, and I hope one will be made (and I will make something myself eventually).

Meanwhile, there is a certain contingent of Russian sims, and quite a few Russians in SL, and I have to say I find some of them out of touch with what is going on, to put it mildly.

So let's think of what communities should be showcased by LL. I don't mind them doing this as a PR exercise because the biggest problem people have coming into SL is finding a friend, and finding something to do. So I think it's more than fine to have these show-cases, just as they have had individuals lately who aren't the "top creators" or whatever, but just various people doing interesting things.

No doubt they have already made this list up, as this is, after all, a PR campaign, but maybe it can be shaped:

So a tentative list:

o LGBT - these are long-standing and real communities of all types with venues and interesting builds.

o Europeans - we hear from Europeans when there things go wrong, like VAT, or like the recent debacle with the questionnaire that was US-centric. What is Europe? Let's here it defined. I disagree with Ida Bae Wells that "Europe is not a continent". And let's not just have Weimar Republic, Germany, OK? That's fine, but it's always heard from. What are Italians, Spanish, Danish, Dutch doing lately in SL?

o Asians -- LL made these odd Asian continents with some content that seemed like a cliche, and there were Asian newbie sims supported for a time (and some still exist) but where are they now? And the answer is: the Asian communities of SL, everyone from Japanese to Chinese to Taiwanese to Thai (look at my list) thrive without being tied to some sim or continent. Look in search, and look at the main events.

o Latinos/Hispanic - and no, I'm not saying "Latinx" as RL Latinas I know don't use this concocted term. Both South and North America and Europe.

o Artists -- usually LL's idea of "covering art" consists of "the Far Away" -- and the "Far Away" again, by the IBM guy, and Bryn Oh. And that's ok, but there are a ton of amazing and diverse artists in SL from all over the world that truly deserve more attention.

o Book Lovers - yes, there's Draxtor's famous book club that gets a lot of attention, but I was surprised to see when I looked lately how much book reading and writing activity there is.

o Historical RP - there are a lot of very well built sims, and not just Ancient Rome.

o Equestrians - very active and of course this goes with all the breedable horses

o Fantasy RP and content creators - Fantasy Faire is coming up and this provides a hook for featuring some of the world builders in this premiere event.

 

What communities should LL *not* do?

o BDSM - while LL should tolerate adult behaviour, I don't think it should *promote* violence and slavery in any form, even if "consensual" and LL should avoid reinforcing the adult stereotypes in the RL media.

o Child avatars - I think this can only cause a huge backlash and endless controversy and be picked up in the RL media to LL's detriment

o Live music - it is too wide and disperse and LL already has showcased individuals.

o Sci-fi - LL went overboard promoting this especially in the early years and it can be moved to the bottom of the list now

 

[Maryanne Solo]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Are you implying that Black communities aren't making "an equal effort" to "co-exist"?

Um, well . . . I live in the heart of a city that is either (depending on your source and metric) the most, or second-most diverse in the world. And we here are very much proponents of what you call "modern multiculturalism" -- Toronto is a mosaic of neighbourhoods dominated by particular ethnicities. We are also, I don't think coincidentally, the second-safest city in the world. We're not without racism, of course. But on the whole, "modern multiculturalism" works pretty well here.

I don't live in Canada nor the USA, neither do I use the term Black or comment on things I have no first hand experience in..
Any politician will spew forth terms, (or something similar), "we are the most successful multicultural city/country/state/suburb in the whole world".
It gets a bit old.
Try this example.
We have a park dedicated to a foreign sister city ❤️ whose wonderful people are now devoted to worldwide peace and understanding.
In that park we now see gatherings of those responsible for the only tome of hatred/s that still exists in human history.
Actual hate speech which I have read to confirm. Some "peoples" make an effort where others do not.
Is that the kind of example you're looking for?

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

I would love for this to work, but what a dangerous line to walk in some cases. (my time is short, so quick bullet points)

SL is you getting to portray who you want regardless of who you are.  Some communities will be against this

Most SL communities devolve into cliques and power plays over time

How might a Religious Communities highlight work?

Groups that start out as inclusive tend to end up being exclusive as time goes by

Should the lab highlight some communities as "Community Group and Allies?" so people feel they can join in and learn more?

I want something like this to work out so people can find communities to belong to that they have things in common with, but I kind of have a feeling of doom.  I'll keep an open mind for the time being.

When the Gen X/hippie/atheist/feminist group is highlighted, I'll be there with bells on.  I don't want to see any Baby Boomers or GenZs in there (unless they are allies) 😄

 

[Sid Nagy]

• Problem with highlighting is, that it always will mean that others are not.
• And there is no reason to believe that LL will always find the right or the best people and information that is available in SL.
  Is this the start of forming FIC groups?
• Are people really challenged to speak up? Or are they expected to show the chocolate side of Second Life?
• Who reads that community stuff anyway. Look at the numbers that still active post on these forums. Somehow most are chased away over the years.
• Yet another shiny from the Lab, that doesn't solve any practical and basic issues in SL, like friends requests, group chats, group notifications, tremendous lag caused by avatars.

Is that Grumpypants last name still available?

[KissMy Foxpaws]

In a game where users can be anything they want and leave their real lives behind, somebody always wants to make it about skin color.

Spectacular job as usual, LL. Bravo.

Can't wait to watch the feature go completely unused because it was dead on arrival.

 

[Marigold Devin]

10 minutes ago, Vinsie Bunny said:

In a game where users can be anything they want and leave their real lives behind, somebody always wants to make it about skin color.

Spectacular job as usual, LL. Bravo.

Can't wait to watch the feature go completely unused because it was dead on arrival.

 

I know you aren't me, aren't my alt, but really this is what I heard in my head when I first read about this yesterday and the thundercloud formed above my head. 

And I bit my tongue quite a lot because oh don't we all have to be so very careful what we say these days?  Always someone ready to be offended. 

It's just a PR exercise by Linden Lab, to be seen to be inclusive and open-minded, instead of just being seen as "that game where they do all da sex" (as I've heard people call it).  

I hope it dies. As with anything else it will only appeal to the minority anyway. Even the Second Life annual birthday shindigs only seem to attract mainly the same old same old people. They should perhaps work on spreading that particular event a little more far and wide, so everyone feels included.

Or not. Not everyone wants to go to a party. Some of us really do like our own little quiet corner.

But yes, thank you for calling out the elephant in the room.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Marigold Devin
to close the bracket

[Scylla Rhiadra]

/me sighs

Some people can't just "leave" their skin colour "behind," as though it didn't matter.

Some people can't just pretend their sexuality, their gender identity, their social class doesn't matter.

Because it does, and the reality of the degree to which it matters, and impacts on their day-to-day lives, their acceptance in society, their access to health care, their employment status, etc., etc., is shoved in their faces daily. Being "black" -- or gay, or trans, or a woman -- is for many people a defining characteristic of who they are, and not necessarily out of choice, but because of the penalties that our culture imposes on them for being these things.

"Why do black people keep segregating themselves," I'm hearing here -- as though segregation was THEIR choice, and THEIR fault.

It would be super if we all had the luxury of shrugging off the grinding daily reality of racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, classism, ableism, etc., . . . but many people don't, because it is shoved in their faces every day.

And, honestly, I find it more than a little arrogant telling them that it doesn't matter, and that they should stop "clinging" to communities of identity that exist in part as support networks in the face of the crap they are facing.

And, please, let's not pretend that SL is without these things. I can point you to a dozen sims and/or groups, without even trying hard, that feature deeply racist descriptions and role play. I see WAY more actual downright misogyny in SL than I experience first-hand in RL: if I had a L$ for every profile I see that, somewhere, in a profile or group description, describes women as "s**ts," or "w****s," or worse, or suggests that they be choked or infantilized or objectified, I'd be able to afford a new outfit every week on those earnings alone.

Don't you dare tell me I shouldn't be offended as a woman, or that I should just smile and accept it as "all in good fun."

So, hey. Here is LL maybe trying to do a good thing -- to show support to at least ONE community that faces very real, very quantifiable racism in RL. Instead of insinuating that members of the black community should just "get over it," how about we give them credit for trying to actually make a difference.

Seriously, if you are so utterly bereft of empathy or understanding that you can't see the value in offering support to a group of people who face daily oppression, and begrudge them this tiny little crumb of recognition and acknowledgement, then I don't think much of your humanity.

 

[Luna Bliss]

It's good SL is emphasizing community. 

The true purpose of community is to support each other into becoming who we are. We are all part of one big community, yet there are communities within the larger one. Often we don't accept these smaller communities because we don't really know them -- showcasing them will help us know them better as well as help affirm the positive aspects of our own.

I like the link from the LL blog post which explains what community is:
  https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/community-building

And this quote within it:
  Ubuntu -- a person is a person through other persons.

According to Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Ubuntu is a belief that "a person is a person through other persons", that my humanity is caught up, bound up, inextricably, with yours.

I'll say it again in another way -- we can't actually accept another community unless we know them. If we don't know who they actually are, if we haven't spent some time examining their culture and beliefs, then what would we be accepting? Showcasing makes diversity visible.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Marigold Devin]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

/me sighs

Some people can't just "leave" their skin colour "behind," as though it didn't matter.

Some people can't just pretend their sexuality, their gender identity, their social class doesn't matter.

Because it does, and the reality of the degree to which it matters, and impacts on their day-to-day lives, their acceptance in society, their access to health care, their employment status, etc., etc., is shoved in their faces daily. Being "black" -- or gay, or trans, or a woman -- is for many people a defining characteristic of who they are, and not necessarily out of choice, but because of the penalties that our culture imposes on them for being these things.

"Why do black people keep segregating themselves," I'm hearing here -- as though segregation was THEIR choice, and THEIR fault.

It would be super if we all had the luxury of shrugging off the grinding daily reality of racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, classism, ableism, etc., . . . but many people don't, because it is shoved in their faces every day.

And, honestly, I find it more than a little arrogant telling them that it doesn't matter, and that they should stop "clinging" to communities of identity that exist in part as support networks in the face of the crap they are facing.

And, please, let's not pretend that SL is without these things. I can point you to a dozen sims and/or groups, without even trying hard, that feature deeply racist descriptions and role play. I see WAY more actual downright misogyny in SL than I experience first-hand in RL: if I had a L$ for every profile I see that, somewhere, in a profile or group description, describes women as "s**ts," or "w****s," or worse, or suggests that they be choked or infantilized or objectified, I'd be able to afford a new outfit every week on those earnings alone.

Don't you dare tell me I shouldn't be offended as a woman, or that I should just smile and accept it as "all in good fun."

So, hey. Here is LL maybe trying to do a good thing -- to show support to at least ONE community that faces very real, very quantifiable racism in RL. Instead of insinuating that members of the black community should just "get over it," how about we give them credit for trying to actually make a difference.

Seriously, if you are so utterly bereft of empathy or understanding that you can't see the value in offering support to a group of people who face daily oppression, and begrudge them this tiny little crumb of recognition and acknowledgement, then I don't think much of your humanity.

 

Seriously!

You asked for our opinions. You've got some of them. No one is saying that any community shouldn't be represented or highlighted or whatever, it's just the way Linden Lab appears to be going about this at this time.

To me it just looks like a PR exercise, nothing more than that. And there WILL be many groups who probably will not be represented at all.  

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that all these different communities don't matter, not for one moment am I hearing that. Not for one moment am I hearing that we have no humanity. Humanity has been outpouring in the wake of what is happening over in other parts of the world.

But you know what? Some of us come into Second Life for a bit of respite from the political, miserable, real life stuff. Just for a teeny tiny while. And then that makes us better able to support those that may not be better represented out there in real life. Some of us advocate for rights for disabled people, no matter what colour, sexual orientation, financial status. But we don't lump all disabled people together as one "community" either, and neither do they want to be. 

Every. Life. Matters. 

(except rapists, murderers, psychopaths - they can all hang)

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Marigold Devin

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Vinsie Bunny said:

In a game where users can be anything they want and leave their real lives behind, somebody always wants to make it about skin color.

This, Marigold ^^^

This is what you just applauded.

Like it isn't already about skin colour. Like PoC chose to make it "about skin colour." Like they don't get daily reminded that their "skin colour" is a disadvantage.

3 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

Some of us come into Second Life for a bit of respite from the political, miserable, real life stuff.

And THAT is precisely the luxury that many people don't have. It's awful, I know, that those who face daily inequity have the gall to keep reminding us of that fact, but there you are . . . that's how change happens.

You know, just the fact this has turned once again into a variation of the good ol' "BLM SUCKS!" thread is proof of the value of this kind of support and recognition.

I'm done talking about this: I've said what I wanted to say. But please, do continue to tell people that they should just shrug off the BS that they live with every day, because it's really interfering with your playtime.

[Marigold Devin]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This, Marigold ^^^

This is what you just applauded.

Like it isn't already about skin colour. Like PoC chose to make it "about skin colour." Like they don't get daily reminded that their "skin colour" is a disadvantage.

And THAT is precisely the luxury that many people don't have. It's awful, I know, that those who face daily inequity have the gall to keep reminding us of that fact, but there you are . . . that's how change happens.

You know, just the fact this has turned once again into a variation of the good ol' "BLM SUCKS!" thread is proof of the value of this kind of support and recognition.

I'm done talking about this: I've said what I wanted to say. But please, do continue to tell people that they should just shrug off the BS that they live with every day, because it's really interfering with your playtime.

Really Scylla sometimes you just need to take that stick from up your arse.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Marigold Devin said:

Really Scylla sometimes you just need to take that stick from up your arse.

I hope you're not kink-shaming, Marigold . . .

[Marigold Devin]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I hope you're not kink-shaming, Marigold . . .

Oh I see, I've been rickrolled have I?

Or in USA terms...

 

[Luna Bliss]

I would like to see groups that deal with physical and mental health issues showcased. I can't tell you the number of times people have asked me where the best groups are now, as they found my name as a leader of one of these groups formed years ago but not operating currently.  But I don't have the connections anymore, so would be great if this was more visible in the new community pages.

[Coffee Pancake]

15 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

What communities should LL *not* do?

....

o Child avatars - I think this can only cause a huge backlash and endless controversy and be picked up in the RL media to LL's detriment

Child avatars and by extension family roleplay are one of the tent pole communities in SL.

They should absolutely get featured.

[Marigold Devin]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Child avatars and by extension family roleplay are one of the tent pole communities in SL.

They should absolutely get featured.

And yet somehow I can't see Linden Lab featuring child avatars because of the reason Prok gave. But I do think if they are going to feature one section of the community, then every single group should be featured. Perhaps they should have started with something less controversial and more in keeping with the "your world, your imagination" aspect. 

I know I wrongly assumed everyone came into Second Life to escape from reality for a while, and my own reasons for becoming a resident were to try and get my brother involved with his computer again after he had a major stroke. He used to love music, joined online groups where they could share experiences. 

Perhaps they should have even started with the community that are the Lindens themselves. I know we can find out a lot about them if we go and look, and the Linden family come in all shapes, sizes, species too. As a community they work together to keep this old boat afloat, but each one of them is a tiny cog in a bigger machine. 

Featured communities though, I can't see it being something of interest to the majority, and even within each featured community there will be people who will feel misrepresented. 

 

[Sid Nagy]

34 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

To me it just looks like a PR exercise, nothing more than that. And there WILL be many groups who probably will not be represented at all. 

That a thousand times.

Time for a Linden Lab commercial break. Come and have a look folks:
Here is our shiny chocolate side once again.

Tell it to your friends.

But eh... not in group chat because we can't fi....... eh.....  90+ shades of water and skies. Cool hey?
 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Scylla Rhiadra]

This is an interesting and worthwhile list, Prok, although I disagree with parts of it.

I think Coffee is right -- family RP is big here, and handled well, it could be presented as quite "wholesome." As indeed, it should be.

About this . . .

15 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

BDSM - while LL should tolerate adult behaviour, I don't think it should *promote* violence and slavery in any form, even if "consensual" and LL should avoid reinforcing the adult stereotypes in the RL media.

I have reservations too, and I think that it would need to be handled very carefully to avoid the worst excesses of representations of sexual violence, misogyny, etc. . . .

But I see this as a really potentially useful way of educating would-be BDSMers, in particular but not exclusively, about safety, consent, and so forth.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

And yet somehow I can't see Linden Lab featuring child avatars because of the reason Prok gave. But I do think if they are going to feature one section of the community, then every single group should be featured.

 

Not featuring them means LL are still locked into deliberately avoiding what people use their entertainment product for, and by extension not marketing the product to people with interests similar to the established and proven userbase that have kept this ship sailing.

There isn't a whole world of different, better, less controversial customers out there, there is us, and vast numbers of people just like us.

The same goes for each and every sub genre of roleplay, adult or otherwise.

[Silent Mistwalker]

 

 

Oh. BTW. We are not people of color. We are not colors. We are human beings.

Carry on.

[StarlanderGoods]

28 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Oh. BTW. We are not people of color. We are not colors. We are human beings.

Carry on.

I am a person of colour, so please dont speak for me.