New "Community Pages" for Second Life

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Marigold Devin said:

No. 

I really don't think so.

SL is already as diverse as diverse can be.

Is it? Upon what do you base that?

ARE there Black users, Asian users, African users, etc? Of course.

Are they well-represented in comparison to white Europeans and North Americans, in proportion to the RL demographics of these groups? I very very much doubt it.

"I'm in SL and I personally know three people who represent as Black" isn't really a good indication of diversity, if I have a friends list of 100 people.

[Paul Hexem]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

i think it's certainly that, in part. But it may also be a legitimate (and laudable) move in a larger attempt to make SL more diverse.

I dunno. It's already been pointed out a few times that we're a pretty diverse bunch already. I give LL a lot of crap, but when it comes to diversity and racism, SL's a pretty good place.

It's like I said, at best this feels like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. At worst we're going to be creating a battle (and enemies) where there is none.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I dunno. It's already been pointed out a few times that we're a pretty diverse bunch already. I give LL a lot of crap, but when it comes to diversity and racism, SL's a pretty good place.

It's like I said, at best this feels like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. At worst we're going to be creating a battle (and enemies) where there is none.

What does "pretty diverse" mean?

My assumption, which may indeed be faulty (I try to err on the side of being positive!) is that LL knows that they are not drawing well, proportionally, from the RL black community for users. And they'd like to address that, which they are seeking to do by creating a page that directly addresses that RL demographic, and tells them they are welcome here, and that there is an existing community into which they can plug immediately upon joining.

I don't see a downside to MORE diversity, personally.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

Are they well-represented in comparison to white Europeans and North Americans, in proportion to the RL demographics of these groups? I very very much doubt it.

 

Represented how and to what degree?   There is a Black Business Owners group that has been around for years.  I certainly don't make friend choices or purchasing choices based on the color of anyone's skin nor where they come from nor sexual orientation.  So to me, none of those types of communities matter to me.   Communities that have a specific SL distinction would be more relevant.  As I said, furries, RPers, drivers, boaters, creators, musicians would make more sense than black.  THAT is what will make it political.  Singling out race in a place where it shouldn't matter.

There are tons of Japanese, Korean, Thai, etc. creators in SL.  Several large events just for them.  Cake Day is geared toward the black community although I don't know the percentage of creators there who are black.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Represented how and to what degree?   There is a Black Business Owners group that has been around for years.  I certainly don't make friend choices or purchasing choices based on the color of anyone's skin nor where they come from nor sexual orientation.  So to me, none of those types of communities matter to me.   Communities that have a specific SL distinction would be more relevant.  As I said, furries, RPers, drivers, boaters, creators, musicians would make more sense than black.  THAT is what will make it political.  Singling out race in a place where it shouldn't matter.

There are tons of Japanese, Korean, Thai, etc. creators in SL.  Several large events just for them.  Cake Day is geared toward the black community although I don't know the percentage of creators there who are black.  

I think this is over-determining the point of these communities which, as I (and others) have suggested, are outwards facing.

This is, I think, about demonstrating to prospective users from various demographics -- in this case, the Black community -- that SL is a warm and welcoming place for them. "Look! There are lots of successful and high profile Black people in SL who are doing exciting things!" And, potentially, "There is an existing support network for you!"

I think the idea that this is somehow about "segregating" or "promoting" one in-world community over another is, in this instance anyway, completely missing the point.

I think they want more Black people in SL. And I can't see any reason why that shouldn't be encouraged.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

that SL is a warm and welcoming place for them. "Look! There are lots of successful and high profile Black people in SL who are doing exciting things!"

Why would anyone think otherwise?  I never once wondered if there were successful black people in second life.  That one would have to even say that is slightly patronizing IMO.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Why would anyone think otherwise?  I never once wondered if there were successful black people in second life.  That one would have to even say that is slightly patronizing IMO.  

There are a great many platforms out there that are dominated by one demographic or another, based on race, gender, class, or whatever. I've no idea what the actual representation of Black people in SL is, but I'm betting it's NOT in-line with RL demographics, and probably not with analogous industry sectors, such as gaming.

It's a pretty well-documented fact, for instance, that while PoC make up a sizable proportion of "gamers" in the US, they are badly underrepresented both by those producing the games, and within the games themselves.

 

[Rowan Amore]

20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There are a great many platforms out there that are dominated by one demographic or another, based on race, gender, class, or whatever. I've no idea what the actual representation of Black people in SL is, but I'm betting it's NOT in-line with RL demographics, and probably not with analogous industry sectors, such as gaming.

It's a pretty well-documented fact, for instance, that while PoC make up a sizable proportion of "gamers" in the US, they are badly underrepresented both by those producing the games, and within the games themselves.

 

You're missing my point.  Whether there was/is a well represented black community in SL was never even a consideration when I joined.  It wouldn't be if I joined today.  I'd also assume there were highly successful black people in SL just as there are in RL.  

Common interests such as I mentioned, mean far more to most people than melanin levels.  Maybe that's just me and how I see SL?

[Snugs McMasters]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yep. Tricky and dangerous as hell.

But LL is going to be (I hope) carefully curating this, for ALL of the pages.

Doesn't this now bring up another question? What qualifies LL to be curator of any, much less ALL of the pages?

Regarding group representation in SL, how would LL discern what it is? They don't know the identities of anyone without PIOF. How would they compile any kind of census? If they mine our behavior to determine how we present here, and focus PR efforts in some attempt to make SL "look" like RL, might that happen by inadvertent slight of hand, where residents pretend to be in the groups being promoted?

Many of us have an "I take people here at face value" approach to SL. That's works pretty well when we think of this as a fantasy world. I'm not sure how well that weathers the encroachment of RL.

I've been wondering what would happen if SL recaptured the world's interest and grew into a major social media player. Facebook and Google already have content moderation tools and teams in place that are getting a lot of attention from politicians and activist groups, both for not going far enough and for going too far. Imagine what might happen if Section 230 (the law that absolves platforms of responsibility for content posted by users) is revoked. Even with 230 still in effect, critics have been using the increased curation of content by platforms as evidence that they are indeed publishers, not platforms.

If any responsibility that to LL as a result of their curation, or the demise of Section 230, do you think they might require at least some proof of our identities? If that happens, I imagine the the largest SL community will become... expats.

ETA: For anyone that wonders. Snugs = Maddy and Maddy's incompetent.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Snugs McMasters
Still learning English.

[Marigold Devin]

58 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Is it? Upon what do you base that?

ARE there Black users, Asian users, African users, etc? Of course.

Are they well-represented in comparison to white Europeans and North Americans, in proportion to the RL demographics of these groups? I very very much doubt it.

"I'm in SL and I personally know three people who represent as Black" isn't really a good indication of diversity, if I have a friends list of 100 people.

Looking through my friend list of about 100 people and if I am totally honest with you - and I always will be - I don't know how many are black, Asian, African, etc. There are a fair few German people on my friend list, and Turkish, because I've known them since the beginning of my own personal adventure. Some of my friend list I have never actually gone into real life detail with them, we've role played or just played in Second Life and real life has never come into it. 

But diversity to me doesn't mean black, it means overall, all races, cultures, sexes, ages, in-world preferences, personality types, political leanings, and I base my comments on this, the fact I never have had quite the same opportunity to mix with such a lot of people from different circumstances/backgrounds as I have in Second Life.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

19 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You're missing my point.  Whether there was/is a well represented black community in SL was never even a consideration when I joined.  It wouldn't be if I joined today.  I'd also assume there were highly successful black people in SL just as there are in RL.  

Common interests such as I mentioned, mean far more to most people than melanin levels.  Maybe that's just me and how I see SL?

And you may well be right! I have no idea whether this will be an effective recruitment tool. I doubt that LL really does either -- assuming that that is the point.

I just don't understand the hand-wringing about it. No one is disenfranchised by this.

As a friend of mine commented, would we even be having this conversation if the first community page announced had not been for Black residents? I very much doubt it.

[Nalates Urriah]

Seems a lot of people anticipate problems.

I see the idea of new 'community' pages as a PR effort laden with virtue signalling by people that have absorbed way too much of the current CRT propaganda on diversity and it appears they understood it to mean racial diversity is honored by segregation.

It looks like the movement going on in progressive schools and colleges where they are moving toward segregation (ref) is being adopted by the Lindens. I think it is a retrogressive move by woke staff hoping to look enlightened.

I hope history has taught someone that certain types of divisions lead to violence. The worst ones are those that focus on measures that ignore a person's morality and merit, to focus on meaningless superficial traits like skin color, nationality, or religion. It is sad that the Lindens are so caught up in today's politicized culture and political battles they didn't recognize the racial component they injected into their effort.

A game where any ethnicity can play as any other ethnicity and experience some of how that race is treated... WHY would we want to divide up by race!?!

Builders, fashionistas, sailors, aviators, Get The Freight Out (GTFO) drivers, railroad enthusiasts, combat gamers, and so many more non-ethnic designations and non-nationalistic grouping could have been proposed. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Marigold Devin said:

But diversity to me doesn't mean black

No, it doesn't. It means . . . diversity. Which is why it is important that this is not the only community page like this produced. Just doing one is worse than not doing any at all.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Choosing or not choosing to highlight one group or another is, in effect even if not by intent, a political act.

We all get that, in the final analysis, the decision on highlighting "families" --or MCs -- in SL will be a business decision. But those decisions will also make it quite clear how LL feels about one constituency or another as important or viable assets to the platform. And it will also be a political decision because it is harnessing, or not, the leverage that LL possesses as the platform's owner to support one community, and not another. In that sense, it's also a form of social engineering.

All of this is mitigated to a fair degree by the fact that these pages are not going to have a great deal of actual impact on the ground.

Are you conflating freedom of expression with politics, or implying that businesses don't get to be political? Of course they do, and they are, and you want them to be political. They featured One Billing Rising, for example, and that's a good thing. 

Of course Linden Lab, which is a group of scientists, is engaged in social engineering. Did you not get what virtual worlds are about? Of course their users social engineer right back at them.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

Are you conflating freedom of expression with politics, or implying that businesses don't get to be political? Of course they do, and they are, and you want them to be political. They featured One Billing Rising, for example, and that's a good thing. 

Of course Linden Lab, which is a group of scientists, is engaged in social engineering. Did you not get what virtual worlds are about? Of course their users social engineer right back at them.

Did you think to "correct me" by basically quoting my own points back at me, Prok?

Fine. I stand "corrected." 😏

[Nalates Urriah]

19 minutes ago, Snugs McMasters said:

Doesn't this now bring up another question? What qualifies LL to be curator of any, much less ALL of the pages?

...

Any group, person, of corporate department is going to make a mess of this type of effort. There is no one that can be trusted with this type of ...control ...supervision ...whatever.

[Prokofy Neva]

20 minutes ago, Snugs McMasters said:

Doesn't this now bring up another question? What qualifies LL to be curator of any, much less ALL of the pages?

Regarding group representation in SL, how would LL discern what it is? They don't know the identities of anyone without PIOF. How would they compile any kind of census? If they mine our behavior to determine how we present here, and focus PR efforts in some attempt to make SL "look" like RL, might that happen by inadvertent slight of hand, where residents pretend to be in the groups being promoted?

Many of us have an "I take people here at face value" approach to SL. That's works pretty well when we think of this as a fantasy world. I'm not sure how well that weathers the encroachment of RL.

I've been wondering what would happen if SL recaptured the world's interest and grew into a major social media player. Facebook and Google already have content moderation tools and teams in place that are getting a lot of attention from politicians and activist groups, both for not going far enough and for going too far. Imagine what might happen if Section 230 (the law that absolves platforms of responsibility for content posted by users) is revoked. Even with 230 still in effect, critics have been using the increased curation of content by platforms as evidence that they are indeed publishers, not platforms.

If any responsibility that to LL as a result of their curation, or the demise of Section 230, do you think they might require at least some proof of our identities? If that happens, I imagine the the largest SL community will become... expats.

 

What qualifies them? It's like the old adage "Freedom of the press belongs to him who owns one." They are the platform owners and providers and as people are happy to indignantly tell others who disagree with LL's policy on, say, gatchas, "they're a business, they get to pursue their business interests."

And to a point, users, who provide them with revenue, have a certain amount of influence on them, and can vote with their feet. And if you see the next "community" advertised as "breedables," you'll know who LL has heard from.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

30 minutes ago, Snugs McMasters said:

Doesn't this now bring up another question? What qualifies LL to be curator of any, much less ALL of the pages?

Regarding group representation in SL, how would LL discern what it is? They don't know the identities of anyone without PIOF. How would they compile any kind of census? If they mine our behavior to determine how we present here, and focus PR efforts in some attempt to make SL "look" like RL, might that happen by inadvertent slight of hand, where residents pretend to be in the groups being promoted?

Many of us have an "I take people here at face value" approach to SL. That's works pretty well when we think of this as a fantasy world. I'm not sure how well that weathers the encroachment of RL.

I've been wondering what would happen if SL recaptured the world's interest and grew into a major social media player. Facebook and Google already have content moderation tools and teams in place that are getting a lot of attention from politicians and activist groups, both for not going far enough and for going too far. Imagine what might happen if Section 230 (the law that absolves platforms of responsibility for content posted by users) is revoked. Even with 230 still in effect, critics have been using the increased curation of content by platforms as evidence that they are indeed publishers, not platforms.

If any responsibility that to LL as a result of their curation, or the demise of Section 230, do you think they might require at least some proof of our identities? If that happens, I imagine the the largest SL community will become... expats.

 

Good points *cough* Snugs. (Did Maddy get herself suspended?)

Yep, this is all highly problematic, potentially. So too is "mixing" community groups for RL identities with virtual ones, such as furries.

I don't think LL cares much. If these pages are not pointed at existing residents, but rather intended to bring in new ones, those kinds of considerations don't really factor into the effectiveness of the tool.

As for polling, isn't that precisely what LL has been doing for the last month or more? Haven't we seen the evidence on the forum, here?

Edited March 3, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Maryanne Solo]

In RL it is not uncommon for me to compose on average 1200 and waaaaay above words of original text in one day
which is mostly technical documentation, written in street/youth/plain english terminology.
Dedicated RL scribes would agree this is a very easily achieved word count. 

LL should have prepared MANY pages beforehand (metinx) and released them, (for commenting/proofing?), all at one time
for the intended user groups. 
Then entire communities would have just gone to "their" page instead of being distracted by nah nah nee nah nah, 
where's MY page pajabah.

But the sure fire method of success here is to, (as many have mentioned), use Interests as the hook which may then lead to many specific community group pages relating to that subject of interest.

It belies belief that those who hand out the woke pills basically forget to see the woods for the trees in terms of common sense in 2022.
(and that is not a dig at anyone in these forums - that's aimed directly at those who hold the *reigns at unis etc). 😛 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Maryanne Solo
* <- NOT a typo

[Rat Luv]

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

IMHO, country of origin, furries, RP, General Family RP, LGBTQIA and the likes would have been better choices as black people are in ALL of the above.

I agree! I think LL means well but these things come across a bit like "Look at these fun communities, living out their imaginations! Over here they're doing a horse auction, over here they're doing a poetry slam...over here there's a furry punk fundraiser. Oh...and over here...we have black people...so let's go all serious...what are they into? soul?"  

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Snugs McMasters said:

Maddy's incompetent.

Is not.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I think I'm far too cynical to appreciate this kind of thing. Maybe those who have had more positive experiences inworld repping their real life identities will feel differently. Outside of my photography platform, I rarely do that these days (Undead/zombie is as close as I get), and there's a reason for that. And like Rowan said - if I want to connect with my community, I'll go do that elsewhere. SL is not my first choice for that. But that's just me.

I'm good letting Crayola inspire my skin color choices.

Anyhoo, I'll just take my seat over here with the rest of the fantasy crew, as that's the community I feel most represented by. Hopefully someone brought snacks!!

 

42 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

I agree! I think LL means well but these things come across a bit like "Look at these fun communities, living out their imaginations! Over here they're doing a horse auction, over here they're doing a poetry slam...over here there's a furry punk fundraiser. Oh...and over here...we have black people...so let's go all serious...what are they into? soul?"  

I hate that I laughed at this. Gah, lol!

[animats]

I dunno.

It's a mouth to feed. If you have politically correct forums, you soon need moderators to enforce correctness. Which is an operating cost, even though most social network companies outsource that to some low-wage country. Plus people get annoyed with the moderators, the moderators get annoyed with criticism, and the result is either ineffective, or a Thought Police.

The strength of SL's 3D world is that space and land ownership vastly reduces the need for an army of low-cost moderators. In-world, a jerk only has an annoyance radius of about 100 meters, and SL is the size of Los Angeles. Any place that has owners active enough to draw a crowd usually has people to ban jerks. The main places that have a serious ongoing jerk problem are the Linden-run social islands, which may say something about something.

I'd prefer to see LL concentrating on the SL world. Too much attention to the web forums or the payment system distracts from the core business.

[yestothis]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Seems a lot of people anticipate problems.

I see the idea of new 'community' pages as a PR effort laden with virtue signalling by people that have absorbed way too much of the current CRT propaganda on diversity and it appears they understood it to mean racial diversity is honored by segregation.

It looks like the movement going on in progressive schools and colleges where they are moving toward segregation (ref) is being adopted by the Lindens. I think it is a retrogressive move by woke staff hoping to look enlightened.

I hope history has taught someone that certain types of divisions lead to violence. The worst ones are those that focus on measures that ignore a person's morality and merit, to focus on meaningless superficial traits like skin color, nationality, or religion. It is sad that the Lindens are so caught up in today's politicized culture and political battles they didn't recognize the racial component they injected into their effort.

A game where any ethnicity can play as any other ethnicity and experience some of how that race is treated... WHY would we want to divide up by race!?!

Builders, fashionistas, sailors, aviators, Get The Freight Out (GTFO) drivers, railroad enthusiasts, combat gamers, and so many more non-ethnic designations and non-nationalistic grouping could have been proposed. 

Thank you for saying this. 

[Keepn]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

can