Say Goodbye to Disco Guy? Are New Starter Avatars Coming Soon?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

This on Twitter:

"The Linden Department of Works (LDPW) is seeking clothing creators, riggers and avatar makers (skin, hair, makeup, accessories). Do you want to be a "Mole" in #SecondLife? Apply now! "

This is good news. And maybe an opportunity for some enterprising creators?

https://twitter.com/SecondLife/status/1486784295981264897?s=20&t=u1lIfEzmBzE5Y794WBO3Cg

[Coffee Pancake]

Are we finally going to get a decent body that can stand outside the welcome area ?

Or just some new dress up options for the junk ones we have .. 

[rasterscan]

Dont go mad on variety this time. Quality not quantity to keep new players.One male normal, one male fantasy. Same for female. Once they're hooked then they can look at other avvies. imho .. ok and one non - gender being as its 2022

Edited January 28, 2022 by rasterscan

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Are we finally going to get a decent body that can stand outside the welcome area ?

Or just some new dress up options for the junk ones we have .. 

Redoing the system avi in any kind of comprehensive and meaningful way would, I'd think, be a pretty major job. How long did it take them to produce Bento? And I think we'd have heard rumblings about it from within the development teams? It's certainly not something they'd likely be doing solely with moles.

My guess is that this is, as you say, "new dress up options." The only thing here that might suggest otherwise, just possibly, is the reference to "rigging"?

In any case, some improvement would be welcomed, even if that is all they undertake.

[Maryanne Solo]

Totally! - But in the same place they should have avies of like... Rock Stars, probably licensed but not for sale,
as an example of what you can make in SL. <- \0/\0/
Maybe if they weren't using the rock stars name they wouldn't have to be licensed? 
I'll suggest some:
Mick Swagger, Cap'n Jack Barrow/Keith Pilchards, Louis Armslong, Pat Benavatar,
but probably more modern ones that younger peeps would be right into.
(as a matter of fact there's a Billie Eyelash that posts to the forums). 😄

[tomm55]

11 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Are we finally going to get a decent body that can stand outside the welcome area ?

Or just some new dress up options for the junk ones we have .. 

I started SL 3 years ago and I would definitely not call the current starter avis "junk". A friend once showed me how the avatars looked before the current ones and they improved a lot in my opinion.

I'd say the current avis are pretty decent actually, considering they are free and starter. And looking at some of the "Fantasy" ones they are really nice.

I would however appreciate a better selection for males  For me it was either "the old tuxedo guy", "the Metallica guy" or "the guy with untucked shirt"  (btw, I hate disco guy too  )

I ended up sticking with the "old tuxedo" avatar, added some mesh clothes and I don't feel like junk at all.

(2 years old photo)

If they improved rough edges of the starter avatars (especially fingers, arms) they could be really good.

Edit: Oh god, just visited this forum on my computer and noticed how big the photo is on screen  That was not the intention. I hope I did not scare anyone

Edited January 28, 2022 by tomm55
added last sentence

[Mollymews]

Patch Linden posted here, looking for expressions of interest from mesh creatives

 

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

Patch Linden posted here, looking for expressions of interest from mesh creatives

 

Pretty clear from what they search for, that LL will not make new bodies or even smooth out jagged edges.

The mesh body and head market rakes in money for LL. Uploads, tier for stores, linden fees both to buy lindens and take out it in US.

The mesh body and head designers would go broke if LL made something just a little bit prettier.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Marianne Little
typo

[Mollymews]

42 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Pretty clear from what they search for, that LL will not make new bodies or even smooth out jagged edges.

The mesh body and head market rakes in money for LL. Uploads, tier for stores, linden fees both to buy lindens and take out it in US.

The mesh body and head designers would go broke if LL made something just a little bit prettier.

you could be right about this. The post does mention rigging for the Second Life Starter Avatars

we just have wait and  see I suppose if Starter Avatar means Classic Avatar (at least for basic human shape)

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

 

The mesh body and head designers would go broke if LL made something just a little bit prettier.

Theresa Tennyson reflects on the current dynamic where clothing makers drop support for older bodies because the hot new thing has been introduced, while the "hot new thing" often becomes more and more difficult to create a recognizable human being from.

Awww, poor babies....

[Lucia Nightfire]

3 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

The mesh body and head market rakes in money for LL. Uploads, tier for stores, linden fees both to buy lindens and take out it in US.

The mesh body and head designers would go broke if LL made something just a little bit prettier.

I have my doubts. One body style/shape/interface from LL, even if stellar designed, is not going to satisfy all audiences.

That is why we have dozens of bodies in use now and why introduction of certain new designs/styles still garner adoption/support.

There is also the undeserved stigma a "default" body carries that beckons it be swapped out with something user created, else it and its owner be made fun of and/or bullied.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 hours ago, rasterscan said:

Dont go mad on variety this time. Quality not quantity to keep new players.One male normal, one male fantasy. Same for female. Once they're hooked then they can look at other avvies. imho .. ok and one non - gender being as its 2022

I was actually sort of thinking something along these lines myself.

The starter avis are not absolutely awful, but they aren't great either. Any of us, I suspect, could produce better just using freebies. Is the thinking -- let's not make it too nice, because we want to encourage people to spend money on customization?

It seems to me that, in most games, your starter avi is usually pretty good. It might not have all the great bells and whistles, and you often get to add things as you play (that really cool suit of armour, a new hairstyle, whatever) as you progress -- but you don't look so "meh" that you feel out of place relative to the quality of everyone else's looks at the beginning. Whereas in SL, you do look pretty awful compared to everyone else around you.

It seems to me that those who are likely to be the sort to want to buy new clothes, hair, body and head, etc., will do so anyway, because "playing dolls" is part of the appeal. My avi has looked reasonably "good" -- i.e., not "out of place" -- for years, but it doesn't stop me from buying new stuff for it on a weekly basis.

Whereas those who don't care about looking meh are not going to care much, and not going to spend lots of money on customization, anyway.

So why not give people a really good avatar from the outset. It's not going to suppress sales much, and it means that new residents will feel better about the platform, simply because they look better, and more in tune with their surroundings and others, from the start.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

42 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

I have my doubts. One body style/shape/interface from LL, even if stellar designed, is not going to satisfy all audiences.

That is why we have dozens of bodies in use now and why introduction of certain new designs/styles still garner adoption/support.

There is also the undeserved stigma a "default" body carries that beckons it be swapped out with something user created, else it and its owner be made fun of and/or bullied.

And my logic applies to this as well. An improved system avatar isn't going to stop people from customizing, if that is their thing anyway

AND . . . (I'm thinking like a good capitalist here) . . . a really comprehensive update to the system avi, with new bones, better options for rigging, etc., will likely compel both creators and their customers to want to take advantage, and spend more on new stuff, in the same way that Bento, while it didn't "break" old content, sure made some of it look inadequate.

It seems to me that, if they are going to focus on this reactive expressions thing -- using web cams to make our avis reflect our facial expressions -- they are going to need to seriously upgrade the rigging and bones for the face, or everyone is going to end up looking like they're constipated or in pain all the time.

[Innula Zenovka]

12 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This on Twitter:

"The Linden Department of Works (LDPW) is seeking clothing creators, riggers and avatar makers (skin, hair, makeup, accessories). Do you want to be a "Mole" in #SecondLife? Apply now! "

This is good news. And maybe an opportunity for some enterprising creators?

https://twitter.com/SecondLife/status/1486784295981264897?s=20&t=u1lIfEzmBzE5Y794WBO3Cg

 

[Bree Giffen]

Maybe they're making simplified avatars! 🤞

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

So why not give people a really good avatar from the outset. It's not going to suppress sales much, and it means that new residents will feel better about the platform, simply because they look better, and more in tune with their surroundings and others, from the start.

For the last several years there's been an issue with getting started in Second Life. Before mesh heads and bodies became the de facto standard it was possible for a new avatar to get reasonable quality items for their starter-bodied avatar for free or cheap and then gradually upgrade their avatar without having to drop a large amount of money at once. Now even most "giveaway" items are expecting everyone to own mesh bodies or heads, which means that a new person is going to have to drop a few thousand Lindens on products that really should only be bought after some research before they can start upgrading their wardrobes.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

For the last several years there's been an issue with getting started in Second Life. Before mesh heads and bodies became the de facto standard it was possible for a new avatar to get reasonable quality items for their starter-bodied avatar for free or cheap and then gradually upgrade their avatar without having to drop a large amount of money at once. Now even most "giveaway" items are expecting everyone to own mesh bodies or heads, which means that a new person is going to have to drop a few thousand Lindens on products that really should only be bought after some research before they can start upgrading their wardrobes.

Yes, this exactly I think.

Skell has a superb post on his blog about making a stylish male avatar for almost free, but it's dependent to some degree upon having a mesh body and head. His (understandable) answer is to use a freebie which, like most freebie heads and bodies, is actually pretty complicated to learn how to use (you have to go into edit mode and change texture settings), is glitchy as hell, and also doesn't look great (although better than a system avi).

I'm going to resist noting (again) that SL's free-wheeling "Let-Individual-Creators-Do-All-the-Innovation" economic model, which works against standardization across different products, has also made the "new resident experience" that much more complicated and, in practice, much more expensive.

(Oh wait. No I'm not.)

Edited January 28, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Mr Amore]

Quote

• Experience working with quadruped Avatars/Animesh.

It certainly suggest they're working on new bodies and not only humans, possibly fantasy/animal forms too. The impression I'm getting is, LL are developing the body and are recruiting creators for free starter content.

+ Opensource the mesh body and clothing templates to encourage a new generation of creators

- Keep it closed with limited content from approved creators only.

+ Introduce improved UV maps for the new generation, taking an example from the Cinnamon body.

- Use the standard SL UV map and all of its inherent issues for compatibility with ancient content.

+ Optimize the bodies to be used as NPCs too. 

++ Bring back Project Muscadine and enable BoM for animesh NPCs too!

 

A free and usable body would be great for many but I don't see it as a body-pocalypse, seasoned SL'ers will still branch out to third-party bodies and heads.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Mr Amore

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Mr Amore said:

+ Introduce improved UV maps for the new generation, taking an example from the Cinnamon body.

Which, unfortunately, will mean that there is going to be very little content available for it, at the start at least. And because the vast majority of us are using commercial mesh bodies and heads, there will not be a great deal of incentive for skin and makeup creators to upgrade.

I like the idea of LL leading the way on new and improved standards, but they have to be standards, adopted across the entire market, or they will fail.

[Solar Legion]

Ah yes, have Linden Lab use something other than the SL UV mappings, thereby ensuring that if such is adopted that it will have - at minimum - a more or less negative impact on the present market while making the entire BoM project meaningless.

Yeah ... NO.

There are already existing bodies that took their own course or utilize a non-standard implementation. Use one of them if you don't want the standard/BoM.

ETA: Back before any of the Mesh options became a thing - thus well before BoM as well - the only avatar types that saw vast and somewhat easier customization options were human or near human types. Anthros and such? Good luck. Even at the height of their popularity, a particular Creator/shop still had issues with having clothing that would fit properly/at all. From what I have seen, they still do in their own way.

The form I am using in my forum image? That is using a mainstream mesh body and a handful of aftermarket parts/BoM skins. The clothing? All of it is made for the base body and does not care what else I do to the body as long as it keeps the base/does not go too far afield.

I could not do such prior to the current systems. Systems which rely on the SL UV and BoM standards.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Solar Legion

[Coffee Pancake]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Redoing the system avi in any kind of comprehensive and meaningful way would, I'd think, be a pretty major job.

This is why we can't have nice things.

The system avatar is in desperate need of replacement. It has been in desperate need for a decade.

Replacing it isn't a big job in the grand scheme of things, it's just a very hard job to plan & budget from a cost & business perspective.

 

The reason LL viewer projects can take forever isn't because they are big or complicated, but because they were under budgeted, ran out of allotted time, and then sat dormant for months .. years .. waiting for more time to be assigned to them.

What tends to happen is the projects get initial approval and time budgets, they announce a half finished feature to great fanfare, we point out its half finished and then find all the ways it's broken, this is taken as negative feedback and the project languishes awaiting more development time .. which may or may not ever happen.

 

[Vanity Fair]

27 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

For the last several years there's been an issue with getting started in Second Life. Before mesh heads and bodies became the de facto standard it was possible for a new avatar to get reasonable quality items for their starter-bodied avatar for free or cheap and then gradually upgrade their avatar without having to drop a large amount of money at once. Now even most "giveaway" items are expecting everyone to own mesh bodies or heads, which means that a new person is going to have to drop a few thousand Lindens on products that really should only be bought after some research before they can start upgrading their wardrobes.

It *is* possible to set up a good-looking, fully mesh avatar for nothing or next to nothing, but it requires knowing where to look to find a free or inexpensive mesh head and/or body. On my blog I endeavour to provide a list of free and inexpensive mesh heads and bodies for both male avatars and female avatars, but the bargains (especially the heads) are usually time-limited. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

It *is* possible to set up a good-looking, fully mesh avatar for nothing or next to nothing, but it requires knowing where to look to find a free or inexpensive mesh head and/or body. On my blog I endeavour to provide a list of free and inexpensive mesh heads and bodies for both male avatars and female avatars, but the bargains (especially the heads) are usually time-limited. 

And generations of alts sincerely thank you, but for a true new account? Let's face it - nobody's got time for that.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And generations of alts sincerely thank you, but for a true new account? Let's face it - nobody's got time for that.

As much to the point, noobs don't know where to find this kind of guidance, and even if they do, it's a LOT of work.

The new user experience should direct noobs to blogs like Skell's and Vanity's . . . but this doesn't address that crucial first few hours when a new resident is deciding whether the platform is worth the expenditure of effort.

[Ajay McDowwll]

I still have hope that perhaps new starter avatars will be customizable (for skin, hair, etc) via HUD to help new residents get how this stuff works.  Like a training wheels avatar that they can then discard for a "big kid's bike" style avatar when they're ready/ want to.