Do you think people look down on "traditional" femininity?

[Paul Hexem]

Wait, is a thread about femininity turning into man bashing? More "toxic masculinity" again?

Us straight guys just can't catch a break! Everybody's got it out for us.

I'm gonna take my yacht out this weekend to get away from all the abuse.

[BjorJlen]

   Hmmm, ok... May I please make an analogy here in reference to violence by men or women, or the OP's post which began this discussion, or any other negative or evil act that is divided into such things? Thank you...

   As we all know, there are many types of Cancer and all of it is bad and can even kill you (my father died in 09' from bone cancer in fact), right? I hope we can all agree on that too. Well, imo while it is great that we learn about all forms of cancer so we can be information on it, and so we can try and combat each type of cancer as best we can, it is CANCER at it's core that we are tying to cure; The different forms of it are just aspects of cancer in which it can take and we fight against.
   Such is the case involving violence, rape, discrimination, sexism, and so on, and so on, and so on. While it is great and important that we learn what we can about how different aspects of these things can (and do) occur, it is the core issue that is more important as a whole. So measuring who commits the worst acts by gender (for example only), doesn't really combat the issue, because while it IS important to learn about such things, it is the core of the matter that must be confronted.
   Such as violence for example. Because when it's all said and done, heated arguments and debates can (and do) occur when dealing with the separation of such aspects of violence (for example), but we can all agree about it's core. To focus more so on distinctions of violence for example can be (and often times is) distractions in dealing with violence specifically. Basically, to put it into medical terms as just a analogy, while it is good to deal with the symptoms of a disease and it should be, it is the disease specifically that must be dealt with. To do otherwise never cures everyone from the disease... just one patient (if we're very lucky).
   So to sum it up (badly maybe), the real heart of the question isn't "Do you think people look down on "traditional" femininity?" (even though it IS a good question, and should be asked), it is this... "Do you think people look down on PEOPLE?" (traditional or otherwise). Segregating points of a debate (such as by gender, as this post has changed into) does not deal with the core issue itself as a WHOLE, just in part. And for me, I'd rather deal with and "fix" the issue as a whole if I can, instead of focusing on just one part of it. Just like with cancer.
   So if anyone wants to discuss this further in it's separated parts, I am all for it (and cudo's to you), but it would be nice if the discussion also dealt with the core issue of violence or rape (as an example) as a whole overall, instead of discussing which side is hit hardest or worst off (as is the case with women as has been pointed out). Because that doesn't deal with the subject as a whole, which still happens no matter what side of the issue a person is on. Anyways, thank you for your time and patients, so now I will head off and try and figure out my Avatar Project...

Peace...

Edited October 26, 2021 by BjorJlen

[BjorJlen]

   Wait...
   How the heck did my last post turn... pink??? lolol

Peace...

[Nick0678]

28 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Wait, is a thread about femininity turning into man bashing? More "toxic masculinity" again?

Us straight guys just can't catch a break! Everybody's got it out for us.

I'm gonna take my yacht out this weekend to get away from all the abuse.

 

[roseelvira]

.

Edited October 27, 2021 by roseelvira

[Madelaine McMasters]

When I Was a Boy

Dar Williams

 

I won't forget when Peter Pan came to my house, took my hand
I said I was a boy
I'm glad he didn't check
I learned to fly, I learned to fight
I lived a whole life in one night
We saved each other's lives out on the pirate's deck
 

And I remember that night
When I'm leaving a late night with some friends
And I hear somebody tell me it's not safe, someone should help me
I need to find a nice man to walk me home
When I was a boy, I scared the pants off of my mom
Climbed what I could climb upon

 

And I don't know how I survived
I guess I knew the tricks that all boys knew
And you can walk me home, but I was a boy, too

 

I was a kid that you would like, just a small boy on her bike
Riding topless, yeah, I never cared who saw
My neighbor came outside to say, "get your shirt"
I said "no way, it's the last time I'm not breaking any law"
And now I'm in a clothing store, and the sign says less is more
More that's tight means more to see, more for them, not more for me
That can't help me climb a tree in ten seconds flat

 

When I was a boy, see that picture? that was me
Grass-stained shirt and dusty knees
And I know things have gotta change
They got pills to sell, they've got implants to put in, they've got implants to remove
But I am not forgetting
That I was a boy, too

 

And like the woods where I would creep, it's a secret I can keep
Except when I'm tired, except when I'm being caught off guard
I've had a lonesome awful day, the conversation finds its way
To catching fire-flies out in the backyard
And I tell the man I'm with about the other life I lived
And I say now you're top gun
I have lost and you have won
He says, "oh no, no, can't you see?"
 

When I was a girl, my mom and I, we always talked
And I picked flowers everywhere that I walked
And I could always cry, now even when I'm alone I seldom do
And I have lost some kindness
But I was a girl, too
And you were just like me, and I was just like you

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Wait, is a thread about femininity turning into man bashing? More "toxic masculinity" again?

Us straight guys just can't catch a break! Everybody's got it out for us.

I'm gonna take my yacht out this weekend to get away from all the abuse.

Nobody is "man bashing." Discussing systemic sexism and toxic masculinity isn't an assault on men: it's a critique of the culture that has generated a kind of acceptance of violence, sexual and otherwise, from men, and conditioned some to believe that it is not only "ok" to engage in such violence, but actually expected of them.

Men are great. I love men, in every sense of that word. I posted a pic here two days ago of one of the really lovely men I know in SL, celebrating his kindness and gentleness. Almost all of the men I know, in both RL and SL, are like that. I'm sure you are too.

You're not being attacked. A culture that conditions us to expect violence from men is being attacked. And eliminating that culture does as much to liberate men from its stranglehold as it does to release women from fear of violence.

To quote Margaret Atwood,

Quote

'Why do men feel threatened by women?' I asked a male friend of mine.. 'men are bigger, most of the time, they can run faster, strangle better, and they have on the average a lot more money and power.' 'They're afraid women will laugh at them,' he said... I asked some women students in a quickie poetry seminar I was giving, 'Why do women feel threatened by men?' 'They're afraid of being killed.'

Why would you, as a man, not want to do something about both that perception, and the reality of violence against women?

[Alwin Alcott]

5 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Wait, is a thread about femininity turning into man bashing? More "toxic masculinity" again?

look at the names posting to silence other sounds

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

look at the names posting to silence other sounds

Whoever is trying to "silence" you, Alwin, doesn't appear to be very good at it.

[Nick0678]

Friendly reminder, being a "toxic" partner (he is an a**hole, she is a gold digger, etc)  is not a crime, we may not like it but toxicity isn't criminality.

Anyone who thinks that their partner is toxic "for them" should simply change partner.

[Arielle Popstar]

33 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Friendly reminder, being a "toxic" partner (he is an a**hole, she is a gold digger, etc)  is not a crime, we may not like it but toxicity isn't criminality.

Anyone who thinks that their partner is toxic "for them" should simply change partner.

Toxicity may not be a crime but it often is a precursor. Changing partners is not simple nor is it the simple solution in many cases. If one does not look at themselves first to determine what it is about them that they are attracted to an abusive person, there will be a repeating pattern of choosing abusive partners.

[Nick0678]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Changing partners is not simple..

Everything is simple the moment you realize that you won't live another life. It is simply a bad choice so you either change it or live with it but don't expect the other person to change. We all make bad choices one way or another.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Nobody is "man bashing." Discussing systemic sexism and toxic masculinity isn't an assault on men: it's a critique of the culture that has generated a kind of acceptance of violence, sexual and otherwise, from men, and conditioned some to believe that it is not only "ok" to engage in such violence, but actually expected of them.

The moment you implicate the "culture" and systemic sexism as being the problem, you basically throw all men under the same bus wheels. It reminds me of the "white privilege" charge and its supposed attendant systemic racism being touted last year. Neither is honest nor a reality. In the case of violent and aggressiveness for example, one only has to look at some stats that alcohol abuse, accounts for being a factor in over half of assaults and murders and even that I think is possibly a low statistic. Then there are identifiable segments of the population where murders and assaults have a higher prevalence even without drug and alcohol abuse leaving the general culture relatively intact with its general trend to less aggressiveness over the long term. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Arielle Popstar
grammar

[Nick0678]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The moment you implicate the "culture" and systemic sexism as being the problem, you basically throw all men under the same bus wheels. It reminds me of the "white privilege" charge and its supposed attendant systemic racism being touted last year. Neither is honest nor a reality. In the case of violent and aggressiveness for example, one only has to look at some stats that alcohol abuse, accounts for being a factor in over half of assaults and murders and even that I think is possibly a low statistic.

Nods.. On this planet, 4 billion human's that happen to be men are bad people.

(**plus white skin color people, regardless of gender)

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Nick0678

[Finite]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The moment you implicate the "culture" and systemic sexism as being the problem, you basically throw all men under the same bus wheels. It reminds me of the "white privilege" charge and its supposed attendant systemic racism being touted last year. Neither is honest nor a reality.

I don't think it implicates every  man or in the case of white privilege every white person. That's not the purpose. I find people who think that are overly defensive or just don't clearly understand what the terms mean. It's for awareness and not meant to throw anyone under a bus. To get to the bottom of it you basically participate in it or don't or deny they exist. White privilege isn't some new term.  I believe it was coined in the 80s in a report on women studies. I remember we studied it for like a week back in college in some sociology class.

I think it's easy to live somewhere far from diversity and deny something doesn't exists while in other places it's quite blatantly obvious they do.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Finite

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Nick0678 said:

Nods.. On this planet, 4 billion human's that happen to be men are bad people.

(**plus white skin color people, regardless of gender)

I think there needs to be a law where if we can find one, we can get an extra..

 

hehehe

[Robin Kiyori]

Ok, let's try and clarify some terms because they don't mean all x are bad. Nor are they pointing at individual people so let's all set aside the pitchfolks and be the reasonable adults we are.

When people talk of certain groups having prvilage. They don't mean every single person in that group has it easy and is bad.

But having systematic prvilage means that on average, those in this group will have it easier when dealing with the systems of power. For example. I have white privilege. I can encounter the police and be pretty certain I won't be hate crimed by them for my skin colour. It's not a 100% chance due to being visably queer and (ex) catholic in northern ireland. Plus imvidual people.

But consider how that average decrease dramatically when your skin is darker.

That is what people mean by privilege. It's a decrease not absence of systematic hardship. A white cis heterosexual, abled person can still experience hardship! But it's going to look different then the hardships more marginalized face.

In this case, women and those presumed to be women, face a different set of hardships then those who are men/presumed men. As well as those men who are deemed to "girly". On average, Cis women, trans women and Afab people face greater sexual assault rates, lower pay compared to their male peers and so on.

This doesn't mean every man is evil. Far from it. Allot of men and amab folk face their own problems born from the same systems that cause this harm. For example, They face even greater difficulty in getting their own Sexual assault and abuse belived. Especially if done by a woman.

Plus being queer, I happen to think men are pretty dang great! 10/10 would recommend. Would protect and hold tenderly during a moonlight waltz.

The issue is the systems that create the unfairness. Not the people within.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Robin Kiyori

[Nick0678]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I think there needs to be a law where if we can find one, we can get an extra..

hehehe

Ahh... yes we might be able to change that in the near future ..

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Nick0678

[Luna Bliss]

15 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

18 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

... to really love a woman is to identify with her, to empathize with her, to see one’s self in her".

Hmm i think that you read too much poetry and that is fine but that is what "you want".. Men and women are both humans and can be together for whatever reason.  Anyone who wants to feel "loved" in such way but that doesn't happen can break up or have a divorce if they are married and find what fits them. We live in 2021.

We can choose for a relationship to have more depth and meaning vs choosing for it to be more superficial or staying on the surface and not going too deep, but this has nothing to do with the notion of it being either old-fashioned or more modern. We make these choices, albeit often subconsciously, about all relationships -- whether to know a person in a deeper way or whether our interaction remains more casual in nature.

The author of that paragraph is obviously talking about those having deeper relationships, but there is no value judgement on those who stay more on the surface -- you are imposing those notions on the author and imagining they are telling you how to behave, when in reality they are simply describing those who behave in a different way than you do within their relationships.

It's true in the Western world we are more accepting now of those who choose not to marry, or of those who engage in sex outside of marriage, or of those who engage in sexual relationships outside the norm, but this is separate from how well we choose to know another.

I look at it like this -- on one extreme we can engage in a relationship that is extremely important for us, mind-blowing in the deepest of ways, life-changing to the point that we'll never be the same -- or -- we can relate as walking-holes to walking-willies (lol).
Either extreme on the polarized continuum I just described is bad for us (unhealthy) -- most people are somewhere in the middle on that continuum.

[Luna Bliss]

14 hours ago, Ayeleeon said:

16 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

And so it's okay that "Six women are killed by men every hour in a “global pandemic of femicide”?  We should not attempt to do anything about this because there is just, naturally, a lot of violence out there?

I never said anything of the sort, all I am saying is that fixing the issue is going to be a major challenge, but I believe 100% that we should do it. If we don't we will destroy ourselves. The culture needs to be turned upside down, we need to abandon violence and embrace nurturing, we need to take care of ourselves, our nieghbors and our planet. We do not do this by buying into the bandaid meathods promoted by the powers that be, who are only looking to perpetuate thier own agendas and offer solutions that are designed to merely pacify those harmed with out actually helping them.

I'm sorry for projecting my beliefs on to you and not probing further so I knew for sure what you meant. I hate doing that.

I'm afraid I thought you were just one more male on this thread who can't seem to grasp that women are in such danger, as you mentioned all sorts of violence but didn't mention women.
I've been told earlier that it somehow minimizes truth to even mention these dangers for women, and when Scylla expressed how she is 3 to 5 times more likely to be murdered by her own partner living in her own house (this is the horrific situation women have to endure -- that most murders and sexual assaults happen by those we loved and TRUSTED, and so the betrayal makes it all the worse), and the response was the posting of a graph showing how women kill their children almost as much as men do...well...again, I just don't feel women's concerns are being taken seriously enough here.

Anyway, I'm glad to see you do recognize it's a problem. And most of all, I'm glad that you're mature enough to realize that just because violence against women is a problem in our world this does not mean that you as a man, individually, are responsible.

I totally agree with your ideas about the powers-that-be having a hand in the problem. One has to wonder if it's to their advantage to keep damaged groups of people at the bottom rungs of society, more powerless due to being emotionally stunned by the trauma inflicted on them by others, and unable to rise up against their oppressors.

[Luna Bliss]

14 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/homo-aggressivus/201409/male-aggression

 

Well, we could trade links till the cows come home supporting our beliefs regarding the cause of violence (is it nature or nurture?). Looking at your link, you seem to believe the violence is due to man's inherent nature or biology?

This nature vs nurture debate is a part of so many efforts to suss out the truth of how something got to be the way it is, whether a problem we see in society like violence, or the source of some disease or condition (whether mental or physical).
I find that with most of these the truth lies somewhere in between -- so with men and violence the cause is part nature (biology) and part nurture (culture of socialization).

I tend to believe, while not negating the effects of biology entirely, that the cause is much more due to socialization on that continuum. The reason I believe this is because of the egalitarian nature of Aboriginal tribes (those that have not been corrupted as much by colonization and the culture of the West). These Aboriginal men obviously have the larger bodies and upper body strength the same as a Western man, but all of the ones I've studied are not violent toward the women in the tribe. This says to me that it is not only biology which determines violence, but rather the culture we grow up in -- we are primarily socialized to be violent against women in the Western world.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Nick0678]

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

We can choose for a relationship to have ... etc

People have free will, find someone who wants the same things as you and you will be happy. Anything else is simply a wrong choice.

[Mr Amore]

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Nobody is "man bashing." Discussing systemic sexism and toxic masculinity isn't an assault on men: it's a critique of the culture that has generated a kind of acceptance of violence, sexual and otherwise, from men, and conditioned some to believe that it is not only "ok" to engage in such violence, but actually expected of them.

I personally disagree with the term 'toxic masculinity', because there's nothing masculine in misogyny or violent slips of self control. If masculinity could be defined along a man's aspirations of gaining independence and responsibilities in providing for his household and community, it can be taught anew to younger generations. It's an antiquated view, yet I prefer it to the definitions young men and boys are exposed to now, who're being taught masculinity is an aggressively conquering mentality.

It does't help that women ferment these views of masculinity too, it effectively goads young men into behaving that way - because if they don't, are they truly masculine?

When the website Everyone's Invited opened, there was shock at the sheer volume and content of testimonies. It prompted the government to visit schools and engage with pupils, with a report on their findings here 'Sexual harassment is a routine part of life, schoolchildren tell Ofsted'.

Last year we were calling it university campus r.a.p.e culture, when it's actually starting earlier.. Where do you even begin with trying to correct the culture within these schools, since those children will mature into adults who're accepting of sexual harassment and violence.

It's not just a masculinity thing, there's a deep culture of neglect and denial in our societies allowing these situations to exist. Schools are inept, governments are clueless, social media corporations are happy to oblige.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

We can choose for a relationship to have ... etc

People have free will, find someone who wants the same things as you and you will be happy. Anything else is simply a wrong choice.

We are not atomized individuals. We live within a society, and that society also affects us and contributes to our happiness or not.

I did want to mention, from one of your posts earlier claiming all would be well (once discovering the toxicity in a relationship) if people just left the relationship -- this is not so.  The most dangerous time for a woman (when a big percentage of women are murdered by their partners) is when she leaves her partner. 

One must be careful when leaving a partner, as many men are not trained to handle their emotions and so they strike out in anger.  Look for signs -- is your partner especially possessive or controlling, have you seen them handle pain in a destructive way, and most especially... have they ever hit you before? If you see these signs it's best to move into a battered women's shelter for awhile until the crisis phase de-escalates.

[Nick0678]

17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

We are not atomized individuals. We live within a society, and that society also affects us and contributes to our happiness or not.

We were talking about the people that we choose as partners, lovers whatever you like to call them, regardless of the society when you choose the wrong partner you made a bad choice. We live in 2021, choose someone that fits you.

 

17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The most dangerous time for a woman (when a big percentage of women are murdered by their partners) is when she leaves her partner. 

Yes sometimes it can be dangerous but that's not a rule since millions of divorces are taking place every year worldwide but be smart and go to the police if necessary.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Nick0678