Do you think people look down on "traditional" femininity?

[Ceka Cianci]

9 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

I am sure they are surprised but those are just silly a**holes.

(When it comes to personal protection, practicing martial arts is also a good idea, usually a fight doesn't last long so it's good to know how to react.)

 

If she hits him in the stomach rather than the gut, he would drop to the ground gasping for air..

He knows it's coming though, So he 's gonna tighten up some for it.. hehehe

[Luna Bliss]

10 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

 Holy... crap...! 😲
   You actually thought I was a... woman...? Like... wow. I'm not taking this bad or with offence mind you, but I am a bit surprised to be honest. Why would you think that exactly if I may ask? Is it because I am a unique person who does not fit into any stereotypes, or is it because you think I communicate here like a "woman" would? If it's the former, cool, but if it is the latter, that don't speak very highly of the men you have encountered in your life, or the women whom you might be "profiling" or stereotyping inadvertently.
   Men, guys, come in all forms, minds, hearts, and sizes Luna, just like you awesome women. Which is why I dislike labels of any kind, even though I have used them myself from time to time. It tends to put things in a box so to speak, and speaking of myself only, I like thinking and living outside the box. Now I am NOT in any way feeling disrespected by your words Luna, please believe me on that. It just confuses me is all (which is easy I know lol). So please clarify if you can, for curiosity sakes.
   Otherwise I might have to beat my chest like a dumb caveman and act like a ape to show you I'm a guy lol (cause isn't that the viewpoint sometimes too with some people? lol 😉).

Hmmm.. I think it was your ease of expressing connection with another, particularly your expression of empathy, your identification with another's pain, that caused me to wonder about which gender you were (when you revealed your chronic pain to another in sympathy -- a person who expressed standing on a concrete floor was so painful they couldn't do that for more than 5 minutes at a time).

I don't think, on this forum, I've ever witnessed a man expressing such empathy. I haven't seen a man say anything in response to another's expressed pain in a post like "Oh wow, sorry you're going through this. It happened to me too", or "oh no, that's got to be tough, I understand".
I have witnessed women behaving in such a way on the forum though, although it's pretty infrequent for women on this forum as well.

My expectation of behavior is more specific to this forum, an observed pattern from my participation here, and applies less to experiences outside the forum, although I do think, and it has been noted in scientific studies in the social sciences, that in general men are socialized not to connect with others and help sooth their pain IN PUBLIC. This does not mean that no man would ever respond in such a manner, but only that the response of empathy occurs less in public settings with men as opposed to women overall -- the response has been observed to occur more often in women.

We need to examine the definition of 'stereotype' from current dictionaries:
  :to believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same.
  :a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.
  :something conforming to a fixed or general pattern -- especially a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment 

[Luna Bliss]

10 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

Holy... crap...! 😲
   You actually thought I was a... woman...? Like... wow. I'm not taking this bad or with offence mind you

This right here is an interesting statement, and seems to demonstrate that you're aware of the fact that if we say a man is like a woman it's frequently taken as an insult, as you feel the need to reassure me you are "not taking this bad or with offence".

If you want to insult a man, call him a woman. What does this say then, about how we perceive women? I'd say that, generally, many do not hold women in high regard    

[Luna Bliss]

15 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why do so many men feel they are superior to women, and that women should be owned?  

I really hate to.mention it but have you looked at women in SL?  Do you think their 'need to find an owner' mindset translates to.their RL?  How many women feel 'loved' when their partner wants them all to their selves?  I'm not one to blame anyone for violence perpetrated against them but how often do people put themselves into a position, men or women, because they think it's love and not possession?  Many women in SL feed the need for the man to feel superior.

A quote I've had in my profile for ages...

“Love and respect woman. Look to her not only for comfort, but for strength and inspiration and the doubling of your intellectual and moral powers. Blot out from your mind any idea of superiority; you have none.".         ~ Giuseppe Mazzini

I like that quote...

Yes, as I have mentioned a couple of times, women do contribute to our patriarchal society (a stratified society where we arrange the perceived value of people into categories of better or worse, deserving of more or less power or agency over their lives).

I don't think though, that when people play BDSM games in RL or SL (deliberate structuring of power dynamics in a relationship), or when someone is looking for a father/mother due to unresolved childhood issues (or if someone on the other end has a need to control others in close relationships, likely stemming from an inability to connect to the child within or the more vulnerable parts of themselves)......that they are looking for, or this has to equate to, violence. It does make violence more likely though.

So yes, I agree women play a part in the problem, and it needs to be addressed, but I still think the solution also lies beyond what any individual man or woman does....we need to focus on why violence is such an acceptable part of our culture and work to change this alongside assisting brainwashed individuals who adhere to the destructive behaviors inherent in any toxic or distorted definitions of masculinity and femininity.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Ceka Cianci]

I remember the first time ever reading this and then sitting there for the longest time just letting my mind go on this ride of just how deep it really is.. It's stuck with me ever since, but I bet I didn't get off the bed for well over an hour and it never really left me that day.. I was like high on it or something.. I just know that I really did a lot of deep thinking that day..

"A nation is not conquered
Until the hearts of its women are on the ground.
Then it is finished,
No matter how brave its warriors
Or how strong their weapons."

Cheyenne proverb

 

[Nick0678]

12 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

"A nation is not conquered
Until the hearts of its women are on the ground.
Then it is finished,
No matter how brave its warriors
Or how strong their weapons."

Cheyenne proverb

 

Yes such quotes are nice and cool but if war was to happen (and i was married), i would take my wife and move to another country where both of us would be safe. Nations can go jump in the river cause if you die none of that really matters, there's no replay. 

Everybody used to say such stuff even Adolf H.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

39 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I remember the first time ever reading this and then sitting there for the longest time just letting my mind go on this ride of just how deep it really is.. It's stuck with me ever since, but I bet I didn't get off the bed for well over an hour and it never really left me that day.. I was like high on it or something.. I just know that I really did a lot of deep thinking that day..

"A nation is not conquered
Until the hearts of its women are on the ground.
Then it is finished,
No matter how brave its warriors
Or how strong their weapons."

Cheyenne proverb

 

 

They won't get it.

[Luna Bliss]

[Luna Bliss]

 

[Ceka Cianci]

33 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Yes such quotes are nice and cool but if war was to happen (and i was married), i would take my wife and move to another country where both of us would be safe. Nations can go jump in the river cause if you die none of that really matters, there's no replay. 

Everybody used to say such stuff even Adolf H.

 

They all had to get it somewhere I guess.. They took everything else.. hehehe

[BjorJlen]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

This right here is an interesting statement, and seems to demonstrate that you're aware of the fact that if we say a man is like a woman it's frequently taken as an insult, as you feel the need to reassure me you are "not taking this bad or with offence".

If you want to insult a man, call him a woman. What does this say then, about how we perceive women? I'd say that, generally, many do not hold women in high regard    

   Actually, no that is not why I said it specifically. It had nothing to do with the fact that I am "aware of the fact that if we say a man is like a woman it's frequently taken as an insult, as you feel the need to reassure me you are "not taking this bad or with offence"." It is more broader then that. I just know that in today's hyper sensitive times, one can take offense about anything, wether it be because you didn't know what religion they were, what God they worshiped, what gender they identify with, what political party they follow, or anything else under the sun.
   I myself am a sensitive man, who just understands (or ties to) where people might be coming from, and strive not to give offense where none was intended. Way to many people these days are thinned skinned (whether legitimately, or otherwise) and we all need to strive to be a bit stronger in not over reacting or "flipping out" at the slightest thing, which I have seen a few times in my life sadly. Again I am not saying you would at all Luna; I am just being sensitive to you and your views is all, and making sure I do not come across as offensive.
   After all, as a friend reminded me recently, body language is a big part of communication, and on forums like these (or in text's, or even in game), that is not a option we have. And that alone can lead to misunderstandings at times. And emoji's can only do so much too lol... 😉 (Hey, there's one now lol)...

Peace...

P.S: And fyi, be thankful you know me (at least in part), because now you can say you know at least ONE man who is sensitive and understanding lol. And that is a blessing I would hope... 👍
P.S.S: And nice Gif btw. As a collector of Gif's (and pictures), I have several of them too... 🙂

Edited October 26, 2021 by BjorJlen
Edited for P.S's... :)

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

Actually, no that is not why I said it specifically. It had nothing to do with the fact that I am "aware of the fact that if we say a man is like a woman it's frequently taken as an insult, as you feel the need to reassure me you are "not taking this bad or with offence"." It is more broader then that. I just know that in today's hyper sensitive times, one can take offense about anything, wether it be because you didn't know what religion they were, what God they worshiped, what gender they identify with, what political party they follow, or anything else under the sun.

Ahhh, ok, I understand and I'm sorry about my assumption -- I misinterpreted why you said that.
The issue I raised though, about the denigration of female attributes, is very important -- it's one we need to change if we want a healthier, less-violent society. The issue being...

If you want to insult a woman, call her a prostitute. If you want to insult a man, call him a woman.
What's the most derogatory thing you can call a man?  It's to associate them with something female in nature:

Don't be a p*ussy.
Sissy!!
You throw like a girl.
You run like a girl.
You must be p*ussywhipped.
You don't wear the pants in your family huh?
You cry like a little girl.

"The net effect of calling boys “girls” as a means of ridicule creates a deep-seated misogyny that follows them through life. Men are encouraged to hate and mistrust anything and anybody who expresses feminine attributes, especially when they encounter men and boys who do not meet the masculine standard of being tough, rugged and independent. By the time they come of age, if they don’t actually hate women, they often objectify them because to really love a woman is to identify with her, to empathize with her, to see one’s self in her".

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

P.S: And fyi, be thankful you know me (at least in part), because now you can say you know at least ONE man who is sensitive and understanding lol. And that is a blessing I would hope... 👍
P.S.S: And nice Gif btw. As a collector of Gif's (and pictures), I have several of them too... 🙂

You've mischaracterized what I've expressed. 

What I said was that it's unusual on the forum for a man to express empathy toward another's expression of pain -- on this forum I've seen women do this but not men, and so this is why I wondered if you were a woman after you EXPRESSED such empathy. This has nothing to do with whether I think men on the forum or in RL are actually "sensitive" inside and indeed feel empathy -- it's about what men feel comfortable expressing IN PUBLIC. We tend to shame men in public, frequently via denigrating what is deemed as the more feminine characteristics (stop being a p*ssy, stop crying like a girl, etc) when they express weakness or vulnerability. This is the problem, and what we need to work on so that men can feel whole, and this would minimize violence as well (to be in touch with vulnerable parts of oneself as well as the strong parts that more easily act out in anger).

I've known many sensitive men, and my ex-husband was one such man. My little grandson is pretty special too, and I only hope his parents are valuing his sensitive side as well as his tough side (my daughter is, but my son-in-law is a bit too macho for my tastes).
The problem...is that I'm not convinced you are one of these sensitive men.

If one is sensitive to another they must actually understand that other person -- how can you be sensitive to another if you don't know who they are or what their experience has been -- what would you be sensitive to?  When I was speaking to all the violence done against women by men in society your only response was that women are violent too. You did not seem to understand that women are in far more danger. Even after I confronted you about how much greater is the violence done to women by men and presented numerous statistics you did not respond. Crickets. I have a sense you do not believe the greater overt violence done to women.

This is a thread, stated in the title, about whether femininity is looked down on.  I guess you don't believe this is true? I guess you don't believe the degree of violence endured by women, indicating such devaluation?
In order to fix any problem the first step is becoming aware of reality.

[Chris Corvinus]

4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

we need to focus on why violence is such an acceptable part of our culture 

What kind of violence are you talking about here? I am close to agreeing but I think specifics need to be made.

[Leahndra]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

By the time they come of age, if they don’t actually hate women, they often objectify them because to really love a woman is to identify with her, to empathize with her, to see one’s self in her".

I am sorry but that is just not true. A man isnt meant to identify with a woman but to be somewhat the opposite pole. He is masculine and she is feminine. As a woman, to embrace my own feminity, i need my man to be and remain masculine,  not turning into female.

Also, why do you think men hate women? Where does that come from?

[roseelvira]

.

Edited October 27, 2021 by roseelvira

[Ayeleeon]

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

We need to focus on why violence is such an acceptable part of our culture

Virtually every thing we do is violent. From medicine, (favoring surgery or drugs over holistic healing) to agriculture (the use of massive amounts of chemicals that kill the soil instead of working in harmony with natural processes), not to mention the obvious military interventions and police tactics. Violence I'd more than just a part of our culture, or culture is built on violence, and we suffer because of it.

 

 

[BjorJlen]

6 minutes ago, roseelvira said:

ok please do not get your undies in a knot but this song is so funny and well   just a break to smile and laugh.

 

   Rotflmao!
   God, I haven't heard that song in so long lol. It's so good, though I think the video might have been a bit more funny if Walter sang it instead lol (and if anyone doesn't know who Walter is, well here's a pic 😋)

 

Peace (and just smile/laugh and never try and take "yourself" too seriously, because there is always someone better then "you" that knows better. Just ask Walter... lol)

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Leahndra said:

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

By the time they come of age, if they don’t actually hate women, they often objectify them because to really love a woman is to identify with her, to empathize with her, to see one’s self in her".

I am sorry but that is just not true. A man isnt meant to identify with a woman but to be somewhat the opposite pole. He is masculine and she is feminine. As a woman, to embrace my own feminity, i need my man to be and remain masculine,  not turning into female.

I think you're misreading what they are meaning by the need for a man to "identify with her, to empathize with her, to see one’s self in her". This doesn't mean that a man becomes exactly like a woman, but that he is familiar enough with the feminine characteristics within himself that it's no threat to connect to her. If we teach boys to denigrate feminine characteristics then he will have trouble emotionally connecting to women because he feels the feminine characteristics within himself are bad both within himself and his partner.
I'm sure we would all want men to have characteristics like sensitivity and empathy, typically associated with the feminine, in the nurturing of their children, right?  There has to be a crossover, but this does not mean a man 'became' a woman when he expresses traits we typically associate with the feminine.

Likewise, for women to connect with men we need to understand the same characteristics he has that we have, perhaps to a lesser degree or perhaps not, so we can understand his emotional makeup. Characteristics like independence and strength. But unfortunately, still to this day, women are often socialized to placate others and not tend to their own need.

Of course I'm talking generally here so this does not apply to every single person -- there are many women who are more like what we think of when we imagine a masculine person, and many men who are far more feminine than the typical woman is.
There is no absolute dividing line, emotionally, between male and female...but rather a blending of traits.

It's all complicated by the fact that much of gender is socially constructed -- the culture we grew up in, including parents, had standards for male/female behavior and influenced us to fit into what they thought was appropriate (be that a pressure to conform to strict gender roles, or if lucky we had parents who let us be however we wanted to be as a boy or a girl)  A lot of this process happened without our awareness, but in later years we have a chance to overcome our conditioning and transcend stereotypes, but often this is difficult. 

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Leahndra said:

Also, why do you think men hate women? Where does that come from?

Oh I don't think all men hate women by any means, but the hate that is there is a significant problem, I mean unless you believe men murder women because they love them?

"Six women are killed by men every hour in a “global pandemic of femicide” that is being partly hidden by COVID-19 – and the United Nations is calling for urgent action.

More than half of women and girls killed by men are murdered by their current or previous partners, according to UN data".

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/violence-against-women-femicide-census/

All the r*pes aren't so loving as well...

[Luna Bliss]

52 minutes ago, Ayeleeon said:

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

We need to focus on why violence is such an acceptable part of our culture

Virtually every thing we do is violent. From medicine, (favoring surgery or drugs over holistic healing) to agriculture (the use of massive amounts of chemicals that kill the soil instead of working in harmony with natural processes), not to mention the obvious military interventions and police tactics. Violence I'd more than just a part of our culture, or culture is built on violence, and we suffer because of it.

And so it's okay that "Six women are killed by men every hour in a “global pandemic of femicide”?  We should not attempt to do anything about this because there is just, naturally, a lot of violence out there?

Edited October 26, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Nick0678]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

... to really love a woman is to identify with her, to empathize with her, to see one’s self in her".

Hmm i think that you read too much poetry and that is fine but that is what "you want".. Men and women are both humans and can be together for whatever reason.  Anyone who wants to feel "loved" in such way but that doesn't happen can break up or have a divorce if they are married and find what fits them. We live in 2021.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Ayeleeon said:

Virtually every thing we do is violent. From medicine, (favoring surgery or drugs over holistic healing) to agriculture (the use of massive amounts of chemicals that kill the soil instead of working in harmony with natural processes), not to mention the obvious military interventions and police tactics. Violence I'd more than just a part of our culture, or culture is built on violence, and we suffer because of it.

 

56 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

And so it's okay that "Six women are killed by men every hour in a “global pandemic of femicide”?  We should not attempt to do anything about this because there is just, naturally, a lot of violence out there?

How did you arrive at the conclusion that he was saying that we shouldn't attempt to do anything? Note that he said, "...we suffer because of it."

[Ayeleeon]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

And so it's okay that "Six women are killed by men every hour in a “global pandemic of femicide”?  We should not attempt to do anything about this because there is just, naturally, a lot of violence out there?

I never said anything of the sort, all I am saying is that fixing the issue is going to be a major challenge, but I believe 100% that we should do it. If we don't we will destroy ourselves. The culture needs to be turned upside down, we need to abandon violence and embrace nurturing, we need to take care of ourselves, our nieghbors and our planet. We do not do this by buying into the bandaid meathods promoted by the powers that be, who are only looking to perpetuate thier own agendas and offer solutions that are designed to merely pacify those harmed with out actually helping them.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Ayeleeon

[Rowan Amore]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/homo-aggressivus/201409/male-aggression