Do you think people look down on "traditional" femininity?

[Luna Bliss]

15 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

These days, one could be forgiven for wondering if masculinity (testosterone) is toxic at any level.

Unfortunately the hundreds of thousands of women who are r-a-p-e-d and murdered each year by their domestic partners would likely disagree with you.

[Nick0678]

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Of course women can contribute to the reinforcement of this stereotype when they don't respect men who cry or show their weakness

Ahh.. yes I remember when i was a young lad and my first love left me after being 5 years together i didn't manage to control my tears and cried. 

She was looking at me like i was the worst human alive. i suppose she felt uncomfortable.

Anyway her new boyfriend came and she left... the years of innocence.. Lesson learned.

[BjorJlen]

   Many good points all (including you @Nick0678, but as a "boob man" myself... well you know lol).

   @Luna Bliss, you made a most excellent point on the bottom of the last page and I want to thank you for it. While a man myself, I am in touch with my "feminine" side (no laughs please lol... and yeah, I dislike that stereotype terminology too, but its our limited language, so yeah... 🙄), and while I am in touch with my feelings, as a byproduct of the old days (and a father who was a old school Navy man), I can relate to not "crying in front of others" so to speak. Me? Even so, I tend to try and more balanced view of things and feelings overall, and just be the best person I can be, even though I fail at times.
   Masculine? Feminine? Gender Roles? These are just terms, and labels, based on the limited form of communication that we have as a species (and yeah, I use them too at times). Does discrimination (in all it's forms) exist? Of course they do; There are ignorant asshats everywhere. But if we are to be the best people we can be, we must ever strive not to become one ourselves... even in passing. Which is one reason I dislike Gender Role discussions, though I will participate in them if they're respectful lol. It can lead us into unintended disagreements and arguments, and that is never good (glad to see that's not happening here).
   As far as I am concerned, it all comes down to this (imo). I view us as  just Souls trying to live in this world, learning as we go, loving when we can, and striving to be at peace. Which is one reason why I try to be so respectful of others and their viewpoints. We all add to the tapestry of life after all. Take one thread away, and the whole picture changes (and not always for the better). Gender roles be damned. Living life in peace and love is everyone's role at the end of the day... period.
   Oh and @Luna Bliss, please don't forget that women can be evil as well and do horrible things just like men. Women r-a-p-e and murder just like men do, and to measure such things in comparison sorta minimizes the truth of it. It's wrong (as you know), and toxicity is just a explanative excuse for it (that point is for @Madelaine McMasters, not you). People don't need to be toxic anything to do evil things anymore them people need "the devil made me do it". Your right, which is why I liked what you said, but it goes far more then just men sadly (which I know you understand 👍)... 😢

Peace...

[Theresa Tennyson]

46 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Ahh.. yes I remember when i was a young lad and my first love left me after being 5 years together i didn't manage to control my tears and cried. 

She was looking at me like i was the worst human alive. i suppose she felt uncomfortable.

Anyway her new boyfriend came and she left... the years of innocence.. Lesson learned.

 

Have you considered the possibility that the look she gave you had to do with the reasons she left you in the first place?

[Nick0678]

2 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

but as a "boob man" myself... well you know lol

I totally respect that, man (honestly i really do).

 

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Have you considered the possibility that the look she gave you had to do with the reasons she left you in the first place?

Maybe.. i don't know, but as soon as she saw me dating other girls (especially a girl from Sweden 🇸🇪) after a few days, she came back and had wild sex with me..

Edited October 24, 2021 by Nick0678

[Luna Bliss]

19 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

@Luna Bliss, you made a most excellent point on the bottom of the last page and I want to thank you for it. While a man myself, I am in touch with my "feminine" side (no laughs please lol... and yeah, I dislike that stereotype terminology too, but its our limited language, so yeah... 🙄), and while I am in touch with my feelings, as a byproduct of the old days (and a father who was a old school Navy man), I can relate to not "crying in front of others" so to speak. Me? Even so, I tend to try and more balanced view of things and feelings overall, and just be the best person I can be, even though I fail at times.

It's great you managed to get so in touch with your feelings.  You know I actually thought you were a woman until you mentioned your gender!

[Luna Bliss]

On 10/24/2021 at 1:09 PM, BjorJlen said:

 Oh and @Luna Bliss, please don't forget that women can be evil as well and do horrible things just like men. Women r-a-p-e and murder just like men do, and to measure such things in comparison sorta minimizes the truth of it. It's wrong (as you know), and toxicity is just a explanative excuse for it (that point is for @Madelaine McMasters, not you). People don't need to be toxic anything to do evil things anymore them people need "the devil made me do it". Your right, which is why I liked what you said, but it goes far more then just men sadly (which I know you understand 👍)... 😢

Oh most definitely I will never forget that women can be evil as well -- some of the most abusive people I've ever met have been women, usually in emotionally manipulative ways.
But I am speaking to the specific ways toxic masculinity harms women, and this does not mean I'm not aware that women can be abusive too (although usually in less overtly violent ways).
The fact that women can be abusive does not negate the fact that women are abused by men in far, far greater numbers. For every woman that murders their male domestic partner there are ten men who murder their female partner.  So it's a 10 to 1 ratio with men being the primary aggressor.

1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the United States has been r-a-p-e-d in their lifetime.
And while women have perpetrated r-a-p-e this is extremely rare. Most r-a-p-e-s, by far, are perpetrated by men -- against both women and other men.

On any given day thousands of women and children fleeing domestic violence find refuge in a domestic violence emergency shelter. I've yet to hear of men seeking protection from women in such shelters or participating in 'take back the night' marches due to feeling unsafe walking the streets at night.

I point this out not to pit one gender against the other, and sorry but I don't see how the comparison in any way minimizes the truth of it -- I make the distinction to show where the problem primarily lies so it can be fixed -- we have to know the reality of any matter before we can attempt to change it. Your need to minimize the fact that women are in far greater danger of severe violence inflicted against them is what minimizes truth (and not me making a comparison, as you said). Call the problem 'toxic masculinity' or the result of a stratified society that pits people against each other (patriarchy) or not, the fact is that men, in far greater numbers, feel like they have the right to dominate and control women to the point of harming, r-a-p-i-n-g and murdering them.

As I have stated though, women are responsible for encouraging a patriarchal system that pits people against each other as well, and they are responsible for changing any abusive attitudes they may have. We need the help of both men and women so we can eliminate destructive stereotypes that can lead to violence against all people.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

22 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

23 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Of course women can contribute to the reinforcement of this stereotype when they don't respect men who cry or show their weakness

Ahh.. yes I remember when i was a young lad and my first love left me after being 5 years together i didn't manage to control my tears and cried. 

She was looking at me like i was the worst human alive. i suppose she felt uncomfortable.

Anyway her new boyfriend came and she left... the years of innocence.. Lesson learned.

Well if she was judging you for showing weakness as a man I'm sorry that happened to you. 

Of course I can't know if this is the case for your experience, but I do know that if I am the cause of another person's pain it's more difficult for me to be sensitive to that pain.

Likewise, if I'm in a lot of pain myself it's more difficult to respond to someone else who is in pain.

These latter two reasons for having difficulty accepting another's pain have nothing to do with judging another's pain as wrong however, as is the case when we believe 'boys don't cry' or that it's wrong for any gender to show vulnerability.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Madelaine McMasters]

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

On 10/23/2021 at 8:01 PM, Madelaine McMasters said:

These days, one could be forgiven for wondering if masculinity (testosterone) is toxic at any level.

Unfortunately the hundreds of thousands of women who are r-a-p-e-d and murdered each year by their domestic partners would likely disagree with you.

Are you suggesting that female victims of domestic violence are less likely to see "masculinity" as toxic? There is actually some evidence of that (self blaming), which suggests that some level of femininity is toxic as well.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

On 10/23/2021 at 8:01 PM, Madelaine McMasters said:

These days, one could be forgiven for wondering if masculinity (testosterone) is toxic at any level.

Unfortunately the hundreds of thousands of women who are r-a-p-e-d and murdered each year by their domestic partners would likely disagree with you.

Are you suggesting that female victims of domestic violence are less likely to see "masculinity" as toxic? There is actually some evidence of that (self blaming), which suggests that some level of femininity is toxic as well.

No, I was saying there is much more to toxic masculinity than the fact that more women are able to attend college now. You seemed to use your proof of college attendance as the reason why there is little toxic masculinity today.

Of course, there is toxic femininity as well, and we can discuss that.

[Lindal Kidd]

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Unfortunately the hundreds of thousands of women who are r-a-p-e-d and murdered each year by their domestic partners would likely disagree with you.

Exaggeration. In 2017, about 30,000 women worldwide were killed by a current or former intimate partner. Still a terrible number, of course. (Source: UN Women web site)

Edited October 25, 2021 by Lindal Kidd

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

No, I was saying there is much more to toxic masculinity than the fact that more women are able to attend college now. You seemed to use your proof of college attendance as the reason why there is little toxic masculinity today.

Of course, there is toxic femininity as well, and we can discuss that.

You've completely misunderstood what I said. I suggest you go back and read what I wrote, carefully.

ETA: To help you out, I think there is reason to think that our current definition of masculinity, and its apparent disregard for actual male development, IS toxic at any level.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Lindal Kidd said:

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Unfortunately the hundreds of thousands of women who are r-a-p-e-d and murdered each year by their domestic partners would likely disagree with you.

Exaggeration. In 2017, about 30,000 women worldwide were killed by a current or former intimate partner. Still a terrible number, of course.

I said "r-a-p-e-d and murdered"...so it was not an exaggeration. You need to look up stats for r-a-p-e which greatly increases the number.  In fact, even when you find stats on it most likely these stats aren't accurate, as they display only the reported r-a-p-e-s -- many go unreported for various reasons.

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

No, I was saying there is much more to toxic masculinity than the fact that more women are able to attend college now. You seemed to use your proof of college attendance as the reason why there is little toxic masculinity today.

Of course, there is toxic femininity as well, and we can discuss that.

You've completely misunderstood what I said. I suggest you go back and read what I wrote, carefully.

I suggest you state it in a clearer manner   

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

ETA: To help you out, I think there is reason to think that our current definition of masculinity, and its apparent disregard for actual male development, IS toxic at any level.

I agree with that.  It seems I thought you were saying something you were not, and you seem to be thinking I'm making some distinction I should not be making?

[Bree Giffen]

People of any sex or gender can be toxic, people of any race can be toxic, why can't we just define toxicity as simply toxicity instead of bringing in race, sex and gender.

[Luna Bliss]

I'm not familiar with this organization, RAINN, but they say that:

"On average, there are 463,634 victims (age 12 or older) of r-a-p-e and sexual assault each year in the United States"

(notice they are including sexual assault as well as r-a-p-e)

Source: Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Crime Victimization Survey, 2019 (2020). Note: RAINN applies a 5-year rolling average to adjust for changes in the year-to-year NCVS survey data.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

Included in this amount are stats for males too, and the incidence is higher for males than in the other stats I reported:

 Millions of men in the United States have been victims of r-a-p-e.

• As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed r-a-p-e.⁵
• About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed r-a-p-e in their lifetime.⁵
• 1 out of every 10 r-a-p-e victims are male.⁸

 

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

People of any sex or gender can be toxic, people of any race can be toxic, why can't we just define toxicity as simply toxicity instead of bringing in race, sex and gender.

Resources needed to help people are always limited. By knowing specifics we can better tailor resources to where it's needed most.

For example, we might discover that sexual assault happens more frequently to Black teenagers living in a certain part of town. With limited resources we might apply them to the population or place that needs it most due to more of the problem occurring there. 

[Lindal Kidd]

50 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I said "r-a-p-e-d and murdered"...so it was not an exaggeration. You need to look up stats for r-a-p-e which greatly increases the number.  In fact, even when you find stats on it most likely these stats aren't accurate, as they display only the reported r-a-p-e-s -- many go unreported for various reasons.

Ah. So you meant "raped and/or murdered". As written, you described only the intersection of the two sets. The UN statistic, admittedly, is only the second set (murders), but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that r-a-p-e occurred too, since they were murdered by an "intimate partner".

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I said "r-a-p-e-d and murdered"...so it was not an exaggeration. You need to look up stats for r-a-p-e which greatly increases the number.  In fact, even when you find stats on it most likely these stats aren't accurate, as they display only the reported r-a-p-e-s -- many go unreported for various reasons.

Ah. So you meant "raped and/or murdered". As written, you described only the intersection of the two sets. The UN statistic, admittedly, is only the second set (murders), but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that r-a-p-e occurred too, since they were murdered by an "intimate partner".

Yes, I was not clear enough.

But what is the cause of this devaluation of femininity? (the title of this thread)

My theory is that we value this toxic, distorted type of masculinity so much and hold it to such a supreme standard that the more feminine aspects of reality are devalued (such as cooperation, nurturing, caring, less valuing of the individual apart from the group, and more).

[PermaRuthed]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:29 PM, Gopi Passiflora said:

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/12/05/americans-see-society-placing-more-of-a-premium-on-masculinity-than-on-femininity/

I found this article on the matter that suggests masculinity is more "respected" than femininity.

It's more than just looking down on femininity.  Society outright hates females and we're already past the point where we got women and girls internalizing misogyny within themselves and spreading it further outwards. There is just no winning with this world where simply existing as a female is a catch-22 with no sweet spot for approval of our existence.

 

 

[Nick0678]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well if she was judging you for showing weakness as a man I'm sorry that happened to you. 

Nah.. it's ok we were both young and acting silly. There are much worse situations in life that can bring people to their knees than silly love stuff and such nonsense.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:29 AM, Gopi Passiflora said:

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/12/05/americans-see-society-placing-more-of-a-premium-on-masculinity-than-on-femininity/

I found this article on the matter that suggests masculinity is more "respected" than femininity.

What's up with all the 𝗌𝗁𝗂𝗍posting on this forum lately?

[Gopi Passiflora]

38 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

What's up with all the 𝗌𝗁𝗂𝗍posting on this forum lately?

I didn't intend for this to be trolling...it was a topic that just came to mind when I looked up the term "femininity" on Google.

[Luna Bliss]

43 minutes ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

I didn't intend for this to be trolling...it was a topic that just came to mind when I looked up the term "femininity" on Google.

Stay curious, Gopi!!