Secondlife and copyright

[PixieCutLover]

Hello

What I'm wondering is can I use art I create, characters, buildings, vehicles etc in SL as graphics for sale? If I use a screen grab of stuff I made in SL to put on say, a coffee cup to sell does SL have some kind of copyright even though I created the art and  characters myself? Any characters I create would be made form original SL characters combined into a unique character. 

[Ajay McDowwll]

I believe SL has always been clear that our creations are ours, including the copyright thereto.

[PixieCutLover]

I'm actually wanting to know about things I create within SL like if I make a vehicle or house using SL. Also if I create a unique avatar by combining other avatars. 

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, PixieCutLover said:

I'm actually wanting to know about things I create within SL like if I make a vehicle or house using SL. Also if I create a unique avatar by combining other avatars. 

Basically, yes.  You are free to use what you make or what you take pictures of however you would like.  As long as the region allows snapshot or does not address them specifically.  It's all here...

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Snapshot_and_machinima_policy

[PixieCutLover]

Great, thanks this helps a lot. 

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Also if I create a unique avatar by combining other avatars. 

This could get pretty tricky so be careful. IF you make an avatar in a 3D program and upload it into second life it is your copyright UNLESS it infringes on someone else's intellectual property rights.   If you are just putting together a "look" and taking photos that is one thing for sure, but I can see some instances with "combining" other avatars where you would definitely be in trouble. BEST TO READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE and all the agreements that linkk FROM the Terms of Service and decide what you can and cannot do.  

 

No one here on the forums is official unless there last name is Linden :D.  

[Pixie Kobichenko]

Side note on the copyright stuffs- I’ve wanted a 3D printed pixie forever.  Pretty sure that would be illegal tho since I didn’t create her, just fashioned her together likes  jigsaw puzzle from lots of shops. 😩

Edited August 31, 2021 by Pixie Kobichenko

[animats]

13 minutes ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

Pretty sure that would be illegal tho since I didn’t create her, just fashioned her together likes  jigsaw puzzle from lots of shops. 

Possibly OK. But you need to read up on copyright law. Especially the difference between "derivative work" and "transformative use". Collage makers run into this problem all the time.

[Finite]

I think as long as no trademarked logos or anything are in the image it would be fine. Most of the buildings, cars and clothes in SL are parodies of actual cars, buildings and clothes anyways. Meaning anything on the mug would be a parody of a parody. I personally think it would fall under the parody clause. And photos are fine as long as there are no identifiers such as trademarked logos. However, whoever is producing the mugs or whatever for you would be a better source to ask than a forum. Since they too could be held liable for producing the pieces. It's likely a non-issue if you're only talking about say 50 mugs. But if you're talking about 100s or 1000s then ya probably best to check with them.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Finite

[Karl Herber]

12 hours ago, PixieCutLover said:

I'm actually wanting to know about things I create within SL like if I make a vehicle or house using SL. Also if I create a unique avatar by combining other avatars. 

Yes, except for the last bolded part.

Anything you create from scratch (with prims you rez inworld, mesh you make in Blender and textures you make in Photoshop), which is a creation purely out of your own imagination and does not look like any character from a movie, comic etc, or a real-life brand of car etc,  can be freely sold and you retain the copyright to those. 

Combining other avatars... if the pieces of those avatars are made by someone else, then the copyright for those pieces still belongs with the original creator. If they are full perm, they may be licensed for resale - read the documentation and the terms of sale for that particular piece. You may be allowed to sell avatars made form those pieces, or you may not. - it depends what is licensed by the creator of the piece.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

I am going to use myself as an example here:

People sometimes get confused on this.  If you took a picture of a house in SL (which is not a house, it is a 3d model)  I made and externally sold it; you would fall into creating a distributed derivative work and you would breach my copyright.
 

 It is effectively a screenshot of my copyright protected asset.   The release I gave when uploaded SL doesn’t grant rights to you as a user beyond what the TOS states and I retain copyright.
 

I would have rights and additionally if my model was a US registered copyright item, I could also seek damages as well on top.  The photography rules on region are not relevant in this case as I retain copyright to all my products outside SL too and you are transacting outside SL.

The Op specifically stated items they create versus third party (my example above) so:

If you personally created your own house in SL from scratch using prims or in Blender and hand painted your own textures  and called it “British Palace”.  In this example, your work  was inspired by Buckingham Palace - a real life house -  you could take images of that and sell with no issue.   RL Buckingham Palace (architecture wise) isn’t copyrighted.   Names etc / trademarks are not included in this example.  
 

The confusion is people say you can’t copyright a chair …. True; however none of what you are screenshotting is a chair.   It is a 3D model displayed within SL.   That asset remains fully copyrighted by the creator unless released otherwise. 
 

It can get more murky than this especially with wider examples eg what if I rezzed one of your houses elsewhere and made a film and sold the film etc….   There are a ton of user cases and each one would have unique differences.

Those are really extreme examples but hopefully give you an idea.

Perhaps the simple rule to follow is:

If you are selling outside SL and using assets you didn’t create, at minimum you should get a release in writing from the creator’s whose products are used.  Simple to follow and covers you legally.

I know this isn’t what was asked but I saw some posts that actually would guide somebody else reading down the wrong road.

  

Edited September 2, 2021 by Charlotte Bartlett

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

I am going to use myself as an example here:

People sometimes get confused on this.  If you took a picture of a house in SL (which is not a house, it is a 3d model)  I made and externally sold it; you would fall into creating a distributed derivative work and you would breach my copyright.
 

 It is effectively a screenshot of my copyright protected asset.   The release I gave when uploaded SL doesn’t grant rights to you as a user beyond what the TOS states and I retain copyright.
 

I would have rights and additionally if my model was a US registered copyright item, I could also seek damages as well on top.  The photography rules on region are not relevant in this case as I retain copyright to all my products outside SL too and you are transacting outside SL.

The Op specifically stated items they create versus third party (my example above) so:

If you personally created your own house in SL from scratch using prims or in Blender and hand painted your own textures  and called it “British Palace”.  In this example, your work  was inspired by Buckingham Palace - a real life house -  you could take images of that and sell with no issue.   RL Buckingham Palace (architecture wise) isn’t copyrighted.   Names etc / trademarks are not included in this example.  
 

The confusion is people say you can’t copyright a chair …. True; however none of what you are screenshotting is a chair.   It is a 3D model displayed within SL.   That asset remains fully copyrighted by the creator unless released otherwise. 
 

It can get more murky than this especially with wider examples eg what if I rezzed one of your houses elsewhere and made a film and sold the film etc….   There are a ton of user cases and each one would have unique differences.

Those are really extreme examples but hopefully give you an idea.

Perhaps the simple rule to follow is:

If you are selling outside SL and using assets you didn’t create, at minimum you should get a release in writing from the creator’s whose products are used.  Simple to follow and covers you legally.

I know this isn’t what was asked but I saw some posts that actually would guide somebody else reading down the wrong road.

  

But this then is confusing as far as ToS goes.  Selling items might have a copyright issue but simply having content from creator in the background and selling that photo doesn't seem to be against the rule.  I have a picture of my house which I purchased and landscaping I also purchased.  As the rules apply, I can sell that picture without being in breach of the ToS.  Am I not understanding this correctly?

2.5 You also grant Linden Lab and other users of the Service a license to use your Content in snapshots and machinima that is displayed in publicly accessible areas of the Service.

You agree that by uploading, publishing, or submitting any Content to or through the Servers for display in any publicly accessible area of the Service, you hereby grant other users a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicenseable and transferable license to photograph, capture an image of, film, and record a video of the Content, and to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the resulting photograph, image, film, or video in any current or future media as provided in and subject to the restrictions and requirements of an applicable Product Policy or other policy. The foregoing license is referred to as the "Snapshot and Machinima Content License."

[Quistess Alpha]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Am I not understanding this correctly?

I'm not a lawyer, but the way I read the part you quoted, you definitely have the right to take a picture of Charlotte's model of a house, and you can display that picture, make collages with it etc. but you don't necessarily have the right to /sell/ that picture.

You have to keep in mind that the ToS are ultimately to ensure that LL has the rights it needs/wants, and in this case, the main thing it allows is for LL to use users' content in their advertisements, and it allows users to create conglomerate works (photography and machinima) that directly or indirectly promote Secondlife.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

No you are fully correct snd it’s why mass confusion happens, as you will see reference to product policy.  Product policy can differ between each creator. However if you used one (I hate using myself lol as an example as honestly I would just give them a copy of the house if they wanted to make something fun!) and commercially outside SL their TOS doesn’t supersede my outside of SL copyright.  The above LL language does not grant a commercial license (it’s legal wording is also poor).
 

The extreme examples I used were to explain re models versus “RL houses”.  
 

LL really need to revisit their policy above because more people would love to create things featuring SL and they could support this whilst offering things like extended licenses etc..

Edited September 2, 2021 by Charlotte Bartlett

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Quistess Alpha said:

I'm not a lawyer, but the way I read the part you quoted, you definitely have the right to take a picture of Charlotte's model of a house, and you can display that picture, make collages with it etc. but you don't necessarily have the right to /sell/ that picture.

You have to keep in mind that the ToS are ultimately to ensure that LL has the rights it needs/wants, and in this case, the main thing it allows is for LL to use users' content in their advertisements, and it allows users to create conglomerate works (photography and machinima) that directly or indirectly promote Secondlife.

Then no one could sell.any picture of anything from Second Life and as far as I know, that is not the case.  Even a picture of my own avatar with nothing else around would fall under that.  I didn't create the mesh avatar.  I just purchased it.  People sell.their pictures in SL all the time.

 

2 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

No you are fully correct snd it’s why mass confusion happens, as you will see reference to product policy.  Product policy can differ between each creator. However if you used one (I hate using myself lol as an example as honestly I would just give them a copy of the house if they wanted to make something fun!). 
 

The extreme examples I used were based on a creator who’s product policy was to not allow derivatives etc.

I'm only talking pictures and nothing more.  I also don't think many, if any, people consider product policy when taking those pictures.  

[Quistess Alpha]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

People sell.their pictures in SL all the time.

Really? I've certainly heard of people offering to take profile photos or event pictures etc. But in that case they could argue they're selling their time and expertise, not the photo itself.

Where would I go if I wanted to buy some SL photography?

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Really? I've certainly heard of people offering to take profile photos or event pictures etc. But in that case they could argue they're selling their time and expertise, not the photo itself.

Where would I go if I wanted to buy some SL photography?

I know @Scylla Rhiadrahad pictures for sale when she was being featured at an art gallery.  @Jordan Whittand @Bagnualso had pictures in a show.  I don't recall if those were for sale.  

[Rowan Amore]

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

Four Yip back in the day I think sold art too I may be wrong.   But the point remains if you are going to sell outside SL commercially,  check with the creator and their policy.  That way you will never have issues.   I would think most creators would be cool with it, but there is always an exception.  

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

Also from the site: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Snapshot_and_machinima_policy

If the content that you capture is subject to any trademark, service mark, trade dress, publicity rights, or other intellectual property or proprietary rights, you must obtain the necessary licenses and permissions to use the content, and you use it at your own risk.“

 

[Bagnu]

2 hours ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Really? I've certainly heard of people offering to take profile photos or event pictures etc. But in that case they could argue they're selling their time and expertise, not the photo itself.

Where would I go if I wanted to buy some SL photography?

I sell some. IM me in world for more info. Ask Jordan too.  Ayeleeon might have some for sale.

[Jordyn McGregor]

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

 @Jordan Whittand @Bagnualso had pictures in a show.  I don't recall if those were for sale.  

Nope mine weren't for sale because I don't feel like I am good enough to demand money for them.  It was my first show and I take pictures for the fun of doing them...and for my blog.  When I do pictures for friends, I only charge them however much it costs me to upload them, eg 1 pic - 10L, 3 pics - 30L etc.

[Bagnu]

1 hour ago, Jordan Whitt said:

Nope mine weren't for sale because I don't feel like I am good enough to demand money for them.  It was my first show and I take pictures for the fun of doing them...and for my blog.  When I do pictures for friends, I only charge them however much it costs me to upload them, eg 1 pic - 10L, 3 pics - 30L etc.

They looked good to me, and I'm sure other people too!!!

[Doris Johnsky]

8 hours ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Really? I've certainly heard of people offering to take profile photos or event pictures etc. But in that case they could argue they're selling their time and expertise, not the photo itself.

Where would I go if I wanted to buy some SL photography?

There are many photographers that sell their work, me among them.  Most of mine are landscapes. I have done profile photos, but it's not what I enjoy doing.  Some people have galleries that are worth looking at if you can find them.

I have exhibited in several regions, including the Rock your Rack festival for breast cancer research. 

I recently won the Mainland Gallery Photo contest.  

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 hours ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Really? I've certainly heard of people offering to take profile photos or event pictures etc. But in that case they could argue they're selling their time and expertise, not the photo itself.

Where would I go if I wanted to buy some SL photography?

People have been offering photography services in SL for well over 15 years. 

The problem here is, the photog is copyrighting the image not the building or one of Charlotte's already copyrighted houses. Which renders Charlotte's argument moot.