covid Why Did It Take So Long to Accept the Facts About Covid?

[Luna Bliss]

57 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do you have any idea what has happened to the Republican party? They have become a far-right party and are still loyal to Trump

Gosh, reverse those words and you'll get a Democratic party from the "hippie generation" who were far-left or were they?  At the time they were but later it has been deemed they were right and the world has matured past some discriminations but still has a far piece to go.  This sentence is not to say the alt-right will be right but the hippie generation believed in conspiracy theories and dead puppet people running the government too.  Just hear these words "tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, we're finally on our own" from Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.  

As far as Trump and evangelicals, Trump painted himself as some kind of super hero to tear down the corruption in government and the media and many in the right are mimicking him now and I think some view themselves as being the new SJW's.   I don't think Trump will be re-elected as one of his last tweets was "I'm not well".  He's too old by then to be re-elected and not entirely well.  

You really need to study what the Republican party has morphed into. What the 'left' wanted in the hippie area is nothing like what the Republican party wants now. False equivalency. 

The Republican party has morphed into a party that is against democracy:
  https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22274429/republicans-anti-democracy-13-charts

Many Republicans left the party because of what it was morphing into, and they formed an organization named The Lincoln Project in an effort to educate -- you can watch these videos to see why the Republican party is now so dangerous:
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheLincolnProject/videos

It doesn't matter if it's Trump himself who is elected again -- the Republican party has morphed into what is called 'Trumpism', and they don't value democracy. 

This type of governance is disastrous during pandemics.

[Arielle Popstar]

On 5/23/2021 at 11:46 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, to begin with, the issue of credibility is contextual. If I discover that my doctor voted for a candidate with whom I vehemently disagree, that is probably not, in and of itself, reason to dismiss her views on medicine or my health.

If, on the other hand, my doctor reveals that she doesn't believe, the vast weight of scientific evidence notwithstanding, that viruses aren't actually a "thing," or that there is no relationship between HIV and AIDS . . . well, I'm going to find a new doctor, because those views are relevant to her understanding of medical science, and hence potentially to her treatment of me.

Really? See if my doctor were to not agree with the "vast weight of scientific evidence" I would be super curious as to why not and would want to know what she might know that others don't. When a doctor goes beyond the establishment, it is usually because they have actually looked into deeper then what is taught. I can think of numerous examples of past medical practices where that would have been of great benefit to my continued existence. At the end of the day, we all have the responsibility for our own health, including what I allow to be done to me and the ramifications that will result, good or bad.

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Similarly, a "science writer" who has revealed in the past that he doesn't believe in, well, science, has pretty much lost any credibility he might have as a source of information on the subject.

We also have credentialing for a reason: a epidemiologist with a PhD and years of experience working in the field is a lot more likely to understand the subject than a GP . . . or someone with no medical or scientific training at all.

 

Interesting you say that from the perspective of his resume being that he has been a science writer and former editor for New York Times, Science Magazine and Nature, all of which I am sure you would have trotted out as being credible sources for the articles contained there in. Strikes me you might be suffering from some bias of this particular article but would flip flop quickly about his reputation if the article was substantiating something you believed in.

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The other, more important point that I was making, however, is that most of those who have responded to the conspiracy theories here (I cited Maddy because her research has been so impressively well-informed and exhaustive, but I could also have mentioned Rowan, Luna, and others) have done so by marshaling facts, gleaned from credible and often peer-reviewed sources. They are not, generally, relying upon ad hominems to make their points, but have instead been deploying science-based evidence to make their points. (Although, again, context with regards to credibility and credentials is not after all entirely unimportant.)

I agree Maddy's research tends to be thorough but by the admittance of her alter ego, focuses on low hanging fruit that is almost inconsequential to the main thrust of a particular argument. I'm sure there is a reason for that but I won't delve into what I think on that. As to the others, the rebuttals I have seen are very rarely focused on the actual evidence but mostly on the credibility of sources. Fact checking sites are not legitimate sources as they often have a clear political focus as of course does the right wing conspiracy accusations even of non partisan sites. I do feel you are using a double standard when it comes to what you accept as sources. Even so, having a bias is fine if one is at least going to argue out why the source is incorrect for more than just their political leanings.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm totally not one of those who believes in conspiracies. I also question every source for veracity. I find enough credible sources to make me question the origin of the virus. No one has proven where the virus began. 

I think we all need to keep an open mind and support further investigation.

For the longest time, anyone that claimed it came from a lab was labeled a 'conspiracy nut' - and most of the 'conspiracy nuts' were on the right while most of the folks labeling them as such were on the left. 

Now even Fauci says that he's not so sure it was a "natural" virus.  From my point of view, now that Fauci says it, the left has decided that it is now something that can be considered.

[Luna Bliss]

12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Really? See if my doctor were to not agree with the "vast weight of scientific evidence" I would be super curious as to why not and would want to know what she might know that others don't. When a doctor goes beyond the establishment, it is usually because they have actually looked into deeper then what is taught.

Oh you mean like with Dr. Sam Bailey who doesn't believe viruses like Hepatitis C even exist?

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Now even Fauci says that he's not so sure it was a "natural" virus.  From my point of view, now that Fauci says it, the left has decided that it is now something that can be considered.

Funny how that works isn't it? I noticed the same with airborne transmissions of the virus when the left kept touting it was only through droplets. Reminds me of this quote:

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Oh you mean like with Dr. Sam Bailey who doesn't believe viruses like Hepatitis C even exist?

 

Where is the link that she discusses that? That would be interesting for me as I was diagnosed with it almost 30 years ago but never did anything about it nor am suffering any effects. I could be her poster child!

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Oh you mean like with Dr. Sam Bailey who doesn't believe viruses like Hepatitis C even exist?

 

Expand  

Where is the link that she discusses that? That would be interesting for me as I was diagnosed with it almost 30 years ago but never did anything about it nor am suffering any effects. I could be her poster child!

My mother died from Hepatitis C she contracted from a blood transfusion due to an unnecessary surgery forced on women of that time (see, I don't worship the medical establishment).

The book Virus Mania, the book she sponsors and I believe added some of her thoughts in the new edition, is where you'll find some of the most ridiculous theories about viruses I've ever seen,

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Funny how that works isn't it? I noticed the same with airborne transmissions of the virus when the left kept touting it was only through droplets.

Hmmmm .. that's not how I remember it. Many of the far right kept saying masks were pointless and refused to wear them because masks can't filter the tiny airborne particles.

Honestly, this country has become so divided that people don't listen to each other anymore. They determine if a person is worth listening to based on the person's political affiliation first, and secondly if it supports their own political belief system. Factual evidence is way down the list of their criteria. Or that's become my experience based on my own family and friends. It's extremely depressing and isolating.

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Funny how that works isn't it? I noticed the same with airborne transmissions of the virus when the left kept touting it was only through droplets.

It was not "the left" who touted the more likely transmission through droplets, and the touting never said ONLY through droplets. Get your facts right, please.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

My mother died from Hepatitis C she contracted from a blood transfusion due to an unnecessary surgery forced on women of that time (see, I don't worship the medical establishment).

The book Virus Mania, the book she sponsors and I believe added some of her thoughts in the new edition, is where you'll find some of the most ridiculous theories about viruses I've ever seen,

My condolences on your mother. My father passed away suddenly as a likely result of a prescription happy doctor.

What I have gathered from her videos on viruses was that it seemed to be more about definitions and isolating them;

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Arielle Popstar

[Blush Bravin]

16 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

For the longest time, anyone that claimed it came from a lab was labeled a 'conspiracy nut' - and most of the 'conspiracy nuts' were on the right while most of the folks labeling them as such were on the left. 

Now even Fauci says that he's not so sure it was a "natural" virus.  From my point of view, now that Fauci says it, the left has decided that it is now something that can be considered.

I've actually questioned the live market origin theory from the beginning. I didn't have any kind of evidence. But it made more logical sense to me than the one being touted by the media. I held my suspicion mostly to myself, other than discussing it with a couple of my close family members. I'm still not certain where it originated. What I am certain of is that no one has really provided ANY concrete evidence to prove the origin. I'm still waiting on that!

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I've actually questioned the live market origin theory from the beginning. I didn't have any kind of evidence. But it made more logical sense to me than the one being touted by the media. I held my suspicion mostly to myself, other than discussing it with a couple of my close family members. I'm still not certain where it originated. What I am certain of is that no one has really provided ANY concrete evidence to prove the origin. I'm still waiting on that!

I suspect we will never get beyond circumstantial evidence as I fear both China and the USA would rather not see proof of a lab leak.

The conspiracist in me thinks that Fauci is now willing to allow the possibility because traces leading back to him have been erased sufficiently it will not come back on him.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Arielle Popstar
added a thought.

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

My condolences on your mother. My father passed away suddenly as a likely result of a prescription happy doctor.

What I have gathered from her videos on viruses was that it seemed to be more about definitions and isolating them;

Thank you, and I'm sorry about your father. Excessive medication as well as the opioid epidemic Big Pharma caused is a disgrace...just watched the 1st episode of a series delving into it in great detail, I think it was on Prime.

Here's a beginning description of the book Virus Mania:

"A daily scan through the news gives the impression that the world is constantly invaded by virus epidemics. The latest headlines feature the human papillomavirus (HPV) alleged to cause cervical cancer and the avian flu virus, H5N1. The public is also continually terrorized by reports about SARS, BSE, hepatitis C, AIDS, Ebola, and polio. However, this virus mayhem ignores very basic scientific facts: the existence, the pathogenicity and the deadly effects of these agents have never been proven. The authors of Virus Mania, journalist Torsten Engelbrecht and doctor of internal medicine Claus Köhnlein, show that these alleged contagious agents are, in fact, particles produced by the cells themselves as a consequence of certain stress factors such as drugs, malnutrition, pesticides and heavy metals."

[FairreLilette]

20 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

My father passed away suddenly as a likely result of a prescription happy doctor.

I'm also sorry about the loss of your Dad.  My Dad passed away due to the same.  My Mom perused a wrongful death suit as in the PDR it clearly states that the medicine my father was prescribed should not be prescribed to patients with liver problems.  After five years, my Mom lost the wrongful death lawsuit.

As far as far-right conservatives at @Luna Bliss, I'm not so sure they are completely trying to undermine science et al as you mentioned in another post but are more so saying science is fallible and governments have issues.  I am not ready to say there is some kind of far-right conspiracy that is "trumpist" and I don't want to read any of those sites because that's too extreme for me.  I'm answering your post below.

59 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You really need to study what the Republican party has morphed into. What the 'left' wanted in the hippie area is nothing like what the Republican party wants now. False equivalency. 

The Republican party has morphed into a party that is against democracy:
  https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22274429/republicans-anti-democracy-13-charts

Many Republicans left the party because of what it was morphing into, and they formed an organization named The Lincoln Project in an effort to educate -- you can watch these videos to see why the Republican party is now so dangerous:
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheLincolnProject/videos

It doesn't matter if it's Trump himself who is elected again -- the Republican party has morphed into what is called 'Trumpism', and they don't value democracy. 

This type of governance is disastrous during pandemics.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Arielle Popstar]

14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Thank you, and I'm sorry about your father. Excessive medication as well as the opioid epidemic Big Pharma caused is a disgrace...just watched the 1st episode of a series delving into it in great detail, I think it was on Prime.

Here's a beginning description of the book Virus Mania:

"A daily scan through the news gives the impression that the world is constantly invaded by virus epidemics. The latest headlines feature the human papillomavirus (HPV) alleged to cause cervical cancer and the avian flu virus, H5N1. The public is also continually terrorized by reports about SARS, BSE, hepatitis C, AIDS, Ebola, and polio. However, this virus mayhem ignores very basic scientific facts: the existence, the pathogenicity and the deadly effects of these agents have never been proven. The authors of Virus Mania, journalist Torsten Engelbrecht and doctor of internal medicine Claus Köhnlein, show that these alleged contagious agents are, in fact, particles produced by the cells themselves as a consequence of certain stress factors such as drugs, malnutrition, pesticides and heavy metals."

Ok thanks for the description. Think I might check it out as I have read some similar things elsewhere though more of in passing comment. Under her videos she does list references for what she discusses and in the last one I linked she has this:

€ 1.5 million for a virologist who provides scientific evidence of the existence of a corona virus, including documented control attempts of all steps taken to provide evidence.

https://www.samueleckert.net/

Lot of money for something that a number of sources say they have isolated already. Why has noone collected it yet?

[Rowan Amore]

I lean left and I didn't base my decision to wear a mask on anything on the size of the particles.  The only option I had were the masks available at the time, social distancing and cleaning.  The same protocol would have had to be in place regardless of particle size.  The only difference would have been air filtering in businesses.  Can you imagine what would have happened if it had been known from the start?  Since almost no one had access to N95 masks, lock downs would have been more heavily enforced.  Almost NO business would have been able to be open.  The cost to install HEPA air filtering would, in and of itself, prohibited most smaller businesses from being able to remain open.

As far as where the virus originated, I don't know where it came from but I also have formed no opinion.  I'm not a scientist and will wait until they finish their investigation.  Honestly, though, it makes no difference to me where it came from as long as the do find out in order to keep it from happening again.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

  The only difference would have been air filtering in businesses.  Can you imagine what would have happened if it had been known from the start?  Since almost no one had access to N95 masks, lock downs would have been more heavily enforced.  Almost NO business would have been able to be open.  The cost to install HEPA air filtering would, in and of itself, prohibited most smaller businesses from being able to remain open.

 

Wouldn't have been just good for businesses. I suggested to a couple of friends they should install a better air filter in their furnaces and air conditioners as they were fairly cost effective. Lot of families were infected because one member caught the virus initially and then in spite of attempted isolation, still wound up infecting the rest that were prone too it. 

Air filtration is a good defense when the filter mediums are changed regularly and besides one can buy low cost standalone air filters for a room with an ionizer. I remember reading an article in the early part of the pandemic that suggested these were unnecessary because it would not be worthwhile for the droplet transmission. I bought one regardless.

[Rowan Amore]

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-isolated-idUSKBN28E2SB

[Rowan Amore]

Yes, people who are out of work can afford air filtration.  Businesses who are closed can afford air filtration.  (sarcasm font)

Some people whined about lock downs enough that many states and countries opened before they should have regardless of whether they would implement air cleaning if it were mandated.  You can't have it both ways.  Lock downs are bad, mask wearing causes breathing issues, social.distancing causes suicides then turn around and  whine about them not finding out it was aerosolized until recently which would have created yet more and longer lock downs, the need for more N95 masks available to everyone, mandated air handlers for any business to open.

If it had been known from the start, what would you or anyone been able to do differently?  

I don't know about you but the size of the particle changes nothing I did.  We started with masks that were available at the time, upgrading when it was possible.  Going out only as needed.  Social distancing.  Washing hands and wiping down items that came into our home.  The last not possible for some as products to do so were also unavailable.  

The entire point of this new Covid thread eludes me.

[Blush Bravin]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The entire point of this new Covid thread eludes me.

If discussion actually leads to listening and understanding each other's concerns and viewpoints without judgement, then the thread serves a vital purpose. If those participating are simply here to further their own agenda without actively listening to others, then I too see no purpose for the thread.

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

If discussion actually leads to listening and understanding each other's concerns and viewpoints without judgement, then the thread serves a vital purpose. If those participating are simply here to further their own agenda without actively listening to others, then I too see no purpose for the thread.

I agree but as this is now the 3rd such thread, I think it's beating a dead horse.  I can probably find a YouTube video or website claiming that dead horse is the origin of Covid.

 

[Blush Bravin]

It was funny but off topic so deleted it.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Blush Bravin

[Janet Voxel]

27 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

If discussion actually leads to listening and understanding each other's concerns and viewpoints without judgement, then the thread serves a vital purpose. If those participating are simply here to further their own agenda without actively listening to others, then I too see no purpose for the thread.

I'm surprised its still going to be honest.

[Coffee Pancake]

If this thread went away some would have nothing to talk about anymore.

[Madelaine McMasters]

44 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I agree but as this is now the 3rd such thread, I think it's beating a dead horse.  I can probably find a YouTube video or website claiming that dead horse is the origin of Covid.

Or that dead horses are concerned about getting it?

http://www.deadhorsecamp.com

CHANGES DUE TO COVID-19

Thank you for your interest in travelling and visiting Deadhorse Camp. Due to recommended guidelines we do have a few changes at our accommodations.

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If this thread went away some would have nothing to talk about anymore.

... glares at you