L$ Tilia purchases charged as PayPal Cash Advance

[ScorpioSeven]

15 minutes ago, RebeccaCourt said:

So to clarify and maybe summarise all of this (not holding out much hope for success though!):

On 7/21/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

Good analysis, @Anna Salyx.  I think that LL will find this is a potentially serious Unintended Consequence of the whole Tilia idea.

I agree ,  i just charged my  debit card , i have money there , and dont let me buy lindens , may be  LLabs are to rich ,  First they let my Tief Govern to ask for taxes , so i stop be premium ,

now they dont want my money ?   intend join a bunch of tiefs for steal and invade my  privacy ?   what a hell  they want ?

i read about Tax´s ,  i just agree on taxation of those that profit  with Linden Dolars ( selling)  not the buyers , thats tiefing , ok   if  LLbs dont want my money , fine , i will not buy any more ,  its frustrating  and a lack of respect the way they deal with costumers , they know very well that we are not happy , but also know we have no alternatives , they shall not push people , because some will stop buy ,  i wish we all could do the same at same time , they would soon learn the power of we people united .

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

43 minutes ago, RebeccaCourt said:

Oh dear, now my brain hurts also!

Can't I just buy a cute pair of heels from my favourite SL store without having an accounting degree and lugging around the International Tax Code volume 1 - oh, infinity...?!:)

LOL I know right!    

[Charlotte Bartlett]

57 minutes ago, RebeccaCourt said:

So to clarify and maybe summarise all of this (not holding out much hope for success though!):

 

(1) There has been a change made by LL either driven by some International ruling (I say this because I am impacted here in Australia also) or by LL themselves for whatever reason(s)

(2) Credit cards either directly accessed by LL ( set up in our accounts) or via PayPal are now attracting a variety of fees. In my case, GST (a sales tax), LL imposed transaction fee and a cash charge from our bank(s)

(3) Debit cards at this stage do not seem to attract a charge (time will tell).....

(4) In my case, I can now only transact without fee, using a debit card AND a minimum cost of AUD20, for purchase of Lindens

(5) To note: after numerous discussions with LL and PP, none of them admitted to any changes,  only it was "my bank's issue/change"

Hope this helps and of course this is from an Aussie perspective only....

Good Summary - a few tweaks in addition

Root Cause:
- The change wasn't caused  by LL / Tilia / Paypal or Skrill (Money Service Businesses "MSBs" )- but driven at industry level so all MSBs had to comply with how they "code" peer to peer MSBs transactions as a cash advance versus purchase. 

Fees and Day 0 Interest may be charged:
If you use a Credit Card as your funding source in PayPal or Skrill when purchasing Linden Dollars, paying tier etc.    The credit card companies globally, whom are taking advantage of this is, growing by the day.

Fees and Day 0 Interest currently will not be charged if:
Your funding source is your PayPal or Skrill Balance (when funded by debit card or bank account).
If you use a debit card directly with LL (personally I do not recommend this due to lack of two factor authentication).

Unsure on yet (untested):
If you link your credit card directly to Tilia bypassing PayPal and Skrill.
If you use a Charge Card (e.g. AMEX) as your funding source in Paypal, Skrill etc.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

While I can sort of see the "cash advance" designation for buying L$, I cannot see how a game membership fee could possibly be viewed as a cash advance in any way.  Likewise for tier payment, as that is also a game fee.  IMO, at the very least, the Premium fees and Tier fees should be treated like any other purchase of online services.

Darn glad I switched my PayPal for LL over to being funding by my bank account many years ago.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

5 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

We just need Tilia to now allow the purchase of Linden Dollar Tokens with BitCoin, that I purchased via a contracts for differences over the counter option, funded by my UK Venmo account which debited my US PayPal who used my French credit card to really make this fun 😅.  I can't wait for this to happen (I am only half joking)...

I'd like to see bitcoin go away.  It's used too much fund the crooks.  Think ransomwear. Hope they can  find a work around...

[Charlotte Bartlett]

36 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I'd like to see bitcoin go away.  It's used too much fund the crooks.  Think ransomwear. Hope they can  find a work around...

My post above was a little financial joke....🥺

[Charlotte Bartlett]

42 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

While I can sort of see the "cash advance" designation for buying L$, I cannot see how a game membership fee could possibly be viewed as a cash advance in any way.  Likewise for tier payment, as that is also a game fee.  IMO, at the very least, the Premium fees and Tier fees should be treated like any other purchase of online services.

Darn glad I switched my PayPal for LL over to being funding by my bank account many years ago.

That’s the thing it seems based on the info above it’s coded at MSB to MSB level versus granular transaction level.  LL can’t control that.  I am sure more examples will come up.  I agree with you as I think all purchases of tokens, tier and premium should be purchases not peer to peer transfers.  Who knows LL May read this and get the CFO to clarify.....  

[Charlotte Bartlett]

If nothing else if anybody has this issue they may find this thread and see the summary here which will help going forward 💙

[Ceka Cianci]

I haven't been getting hit for extra on my premium fee which came at the beginning of this month and only happens one time a year, or when buying lindens which I did just about 20 minutes ago to pay my land tier..I stopped using paypal years ago when linden for a little while stopped taking it or had a problem with it or something like that..

I just remember having to change my payment method years ago from paypal..

My bank always shows anything from linden lab as entertainment..

Also I never cash out anymore, but if I did and it was enough to get a 1099 from Linden Lab and they or whoever were charging me fee's on the way in and on the way out..all those fee's would be added up as an expense against any taxable income..

The IRS is not taxing anyone on expenses, only taxable Income.. But If I'm paying sales tax on my expenses, which in the U.S. is depending on state by state, because some pay at the time and some pay later, plus paying fee's twice, or how ever many times it gets dipped into.. Those all would get added up and go against the end of the year taxation..

That's if i was a business in SL or looked at as a business.. Every linden purchase i had, even if it were to buy a pair of boots, those fee's would be added in some way as an expense..

Have to keep up appearances in my business.. Sometimes you have to have those virtual lunches with clients also... hehehehe

[Anna Nova]

Is there PO Box I can send my gold doubloons to?  I'm fed up of all this electronic money rubbish.

[Mollymews]

28 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

Is there PO Box I can send my gold doubloons to?  I'm fed up of all this electronic money rubbish.

yes

please to send to P.O.Box 16 c/- Mollymews Resident, Second Life

i also accept fake silver dollars, pretendy jewels,  and forged paper scrip of any amount. I can keep your treasures safe and return them to you on demand.  For a very modest transaction fee when you demand your stuff back, cheap at only 10L per demand return

ps. Is no fee for when you deposit your fake wealths with me ok. I am good person like that

😸

[Grumpity Linden]

Hi All. 

Our legal team has successfully pushed back on PayPal changes which led to these transactions being classified as cash advances.  We want to be very clear that this change in classification was not initiated by LL, nor did we benefit in any way from this.  We have been assured that this should not occur going forward.

We’re working with PayPal to see if there’s a way to make our users who were affected by this whole.

[Lindal Kidd]

WOW!  Linden Lab's in our corner.  Thanks, Grumpity!

[Charlotte Bartlett]

1 hour ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Hi All. 

Our legal team has successfully pushed back on PayPal changes which led to these transactions being classified as cash advances.  We want to be very clear that this change in classification was not initiated by LL, nor did we benefit in any way from this.  We have been assured that this should not occur going forward.

We’re working with PayPal to see if there’s a way to make our users who were affected by this whole.

 

Now that's a great update! Thanks @Grumpity Linden

[animats]

OK, that's PayPal. How about Bank of America? Keep pushing.

Edited July 23, 2020 by animats

[Grumpity Linden]

We are not aware of any cases where the Issuer (Bank issuing the Credit Card) was mis-classifying the transaction as a Cash Advance, only if it was done via PayPal.  Despite PayPal earlier disavowing any knowledge of changes, it was, indeed, a change on their side which caused this issue.  Now that they have rectified it, we're working with them to identify all affected transactions. 

If you have an issue with the Issuer (Bank) classifying your SL transactions as a cash advance, please contact our Billing Support. 

[RebeccaCourt]

10 minutes ago, Grumpity Linden said:

We are not aware of any cases where the Issuer (Bank issuing the Credit Card) was mis-classifying the transaction as a Cash Advance, only if it was done via PayPal.  Despite PayPal earlier disavowing any knowledge of changes, it was, indeed, a change on their side which caused this issue.  Now that they have rectified it, we're working with them to identify all affected transactions. 

If you have an issue with the Issuer (Bank) classifying your SL transactions as a cash advance, please contact our Billing Support. 

At the risk of repeating myself, but for the benefit of others (particularly in Australia), my bank which is the largest down here, is charging for these as cash advances and indicated in a discussion I had with them that is was in fact, Linden that had changed their coding. Based on Grumpity's comments (much appreciated) it appears as if PayPal are the culprits. Please note in discussions with them (yes, I have been busy) they are blaming the bank..The merry go round continues!

[Della Starlight]

Thanks Grumpity!

[Charlotte Bartlett]

It is the banks fault as they forced the changes.  PayPal then were over zealous in how they implemented and it is great news Tilia/LL brokered a reclassification back to purchase from transfer (peer to peer).

no banks should be doing this as a cash advance correctly with Tilia/LL... 💗

[Jennifer Boyle]

I have not read most of the posts.

Since at at least April, PayPal has been characterizing my payments to LL as money transfers, but AMEX,  who funds the payments,  has not been charging me fees,

[Anna Nova]

23 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Hi All. 

Our legal team has successfully pushed back on PayPal changes which led to these transactions being classified as cash advances.  We want to be very clear that this change in classification was not initiated by LL, nor did we benefit in any way from this.  We have been assured that this should not occur going forward.

We’re working with PayPal to see if there’s a way to make our users who were affected by this whole.

 

I can't tell you how impressed I am with this response from Linden Lab.  It raises my confidence in my investments here several notches.

I don't use a credit card through Paypal (I maintain a UKP & USD balance), so I was not affected, but I have been watching with interest.

[ScorpioSeven]

On 7/23/2020 at 1:42 AM, Charlotte Bartlett said:

LOL I know right!    

its so anoying 

this is happening in the  so called  " land of freedom "

imagine if this happened in some other Coutry ?

they are just revealing the big hipocracy 

[Della Starlight]

To update this topic...I received an email from Paypal yesterday saying they will issue a courtesy credit to me because of my "miscategorized" transactions which "likely" resulted in additional credit card fees to me.😀

[Miakis Littlepaws]

1 hour ago, DellaLaBella said:

To update this topic...I received an email from Paypal yesterday saying they will issue a courtesy credit to me because of my "miscategorized" transactions which "likely" resulted in additional credit card fees to me.😀

I also recieved the same email

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 7/20/2020 at 7:42 PM, animats said:

"Try turning it off and turning it back on again."

To sum that up in one word, "Relog."