Tos violation?

[Anilyse7]

I was recently witness to a long discussion involving PLANS and methods to create chairs that will not only SPECIFICALLY skip asking for permissions but automatically steal prims from the sitter without them knowing.

The discussion was about HOW to do so and involved confirmed future plans.

 

One of these people is a succesful creator.

 

I have screenshots. What can be done? Is this reportable? 

[Pamela Galli]

The only way to find out is to try. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[Cinos Field]

This isn't a new thing, griefers have been doing it for a while, only with far more obnoxious methods in the past.

It's not bannable as per se to take permissions from a sitting avatar, but it is a violation for the creator to abuse those permissions.

Assuming that you didn't actually mean they steal prims, which is not possible, but I assume that's a typo.

[Lindal Kidd]

One of my students at Caledon Oxbridge proved to me that it's not difficult to script a device that does not specifically ask for permissions and that, if you sit on it, steals the permission to animate your avatar permanently.  So, it doesn't steal prims, it steals perms.  It does not give much warning of this, either...it does its nefarious work if you simply rez the item, right click it, and sit on it.  The only clue you have that something is amiss is that, once you sit on the item, it vanishes (actually, it returns to the owner's inventory and is then used by them as a HUD to animate you.)

[Pamela Galli]

 

1 hour ago, Anilyse7 said:

but automatically steal prims from the sitter without them knowing

This is the part that seems most sinister.

[Innula Zenovka]

Yes, this is an old exploit.   It's inherent in the permissions system, and can't be changed without breaking a great deal of content.

The person holding the unreleased animation permissions can control you only when the two of you are on the same region, and I think Firestorm is able to over-ride the perms, at least until you log out (when you log back in, you need to over-ride them again), so it's more of nuisance than anything else.

Certainly, using the perms to harass the person who's granted them is against ToS and should be AR-d as harassment, I would have thought.

28 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

once you sit on the item, it vanishes (actually, it returns to the owner's inventory and is then used by them as a HUD to animate you.)

There's no LSL function that returns an object to the owner's inventory (be good if there were!), unless you can somehow force the object offworld, which is certain possible, at least under certain circumstances.   If I were making something like that, though, I'd have it hide itself one it had grabbed the perms, and IM me to tell me to come and collect it.   That would be a lot simpler and more reliable than trying to force the object's return.   Could that be how they were doing it?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

SPECIFICALLY skip asking for permissions

This is normal and highly preferable. LSL (the scripting language) has safeguards that make it very hard to automatically gain permissions to animate. You MUST either sit directly on the object that wants the permissions, or you MUST attach that object to yourself. Otherwise a script can't get permissions to animate you without asking you.

32 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

The person holding the unreleased animation permissions can control you only when the two of you are on the same region, and I think Firestorm is able to over-ride the perms, at least until you log out (when you log back in, you need to over-ride them again), so it's more of nuisance than anything else.

The Firestorm option "Stop Avatar Animations & Revoke Permissions" does not work on at least objects attached to other avatars. (I don't think it works on anything you don't own, but I haven't tested that broadly.)

[Anilyse7]

Yes, I meant perms. This was not DONE but discussed with intent. Can one file a report/contact a linden via other methods than the terribly worthless in game report filer?

[Pamela Galli]

1 hour ago, Anilyse7 said:

the terribly worthless in game report filer

Why do you deem them worthless? Could that be an excuse to not Take the time to follow LL advice?

[Maitimo]

3 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

The Firestorm option "Stop Avatar Animations & Revoke Permissions" does not work on at least objects attached to other avatars. (I don't think it works on anything you don't own, but I haven't tested that broadly.)

I think it can; I've used it on occasions when I've been dancing on someone else's HUD (not a rezzed dance machine) and forgotten to stop before teleporting home. Whether it works with all such huds I couldn't say, but it definitely works on some of them.

2 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

Can one file a report/contact a linden via other methods than the terribly worthless in game report filer?

No. The in-game report is the only way. Any other method will be ignored. They will also ignore any report where an actual breach of the TOS has not occurred. And discussing methods like this is not a breach. Building such a tool isn't a breach.  Even building it and using it as a demonstration isn't a breach. It's only a breach if the tool is built and actually used to grief people.

So yes, filing an AR at this stage would be "terribly worthless". You'll have to wait until you witness these people actually doing something that breaks the rules. 

[Garnet Psaltery]

4 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

Can one file a report/contact a linden via other methods than the terribly worthless in game report filer?

You want the Lindens to dance attendance on you personally, because you can't be bothered to use the proper reporting system, and you think you deserve special treatment? 

[Marigold Devin]

5 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

Yes, I meant perms. This was not DONE but discussed with intent. Can one file a report/contact a linden via other methods than the terribly worthless in game report filer?

All you can do is report using the regular proper reporting system. We don't know and cannot see what happens from then on, but it is not in the interests of Linden Lab to disregard any of our reports, so please do not feel it is worthless to report something that you find likely to be against Terms of Service. 

[Amina Sopwith]

Perhaps you should report it so it's on their radar, and might be useful to know if they do start doing untoward things with it. I don't know why you wouldn't use the established process to do it, though. 

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

8 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

methods to create chairs that will not only SPECIFICALLY skip asking for permissions

This is normal behavior. When you sit on something in SL, it skips asking for permissions and automatically grants them. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlRequestPermissions

8 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

automatically steal prims from the sitter without them knowing

That's a load of scare-mongering clap-trap.

[Innula Zenovka]

6 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

Yes, I meant perms. This was not DONE but discussed with intent. Can one file a report/contact a linden via other methods than the terribly worthless in game report filer?

Nope.   If you want Governance to deal with something, then you have to ask Governance, not someone working in a different department, and Governance need the details presented fully and succinctly in the format imposed by the in-world reporting tool.

Merely discussing doing unpleasant stuff isn't against ToS. I'm afraid.     Certainly in the past you could find devices for sale in the Marketplace that use exactly this exploit for the same purpose (possibly you still can) so I doubt anything is going to happen to people simply because they've talked about making their own.

 

[Qie Niangao]

13 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

There's no LSL function that returns an object to the owner's inventory (be good if there were!)

We're in luck: llReturnObjectsByID() does just that on land owned by the script owner. (There's also llReturnObjectsByOwner() but that seems less applicable here.) It's a little tricky because the function won't work on objects owned by the script owner except the scripted object itself (which I understand to be the scenario here).

(This function has been around since 2013 and yet I've only used it a handful of times myself.)

[Pussycat Catnap]

12 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Why do you deem them worthless? Could that be an excuse to not Take the time to follow LL advice?

Some folks want a report system that INSTANTLY summons a linden who responds with something akin to:

Genie Linden: "Oh great and powerful Supreme Resident, thou hast summoned forth this lowly being from the abyss to do thyne bidding, whom shall mine lowely powers be put forth to smite in thy name, henseforth?"

And then they want to see 'Victim Resident' summoned forth and so smotethd before their very eyes, in a most pwn-ful of ways.

As darkness descends upon Victim Resident the last thing they see shall be "Thou hast been smoted, most epically, noob!"

With the results broadcasted onto the official homepage of SL and to all residents in the service; both online and offline.

- Lacking such, the system is obviously worthless and broken.

 

ps: Back when Guild Wars 1 was a big game, about 15 years ago... the above was almost exactly how their abuse report system worked... and there might be a reason why the industry, including ArenaNet themselves; didn't keep or copy that method...

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Some folks want a report system that INSTANTLY summons a linden who responds with something akin to:

Genie Linden: "Oh great and powerful Supreme Resident, thou hast summoned forth this lowly being from the abyss to do thyne bidding, whom shall mine lowely powers be put forth to smite in thy name, henseforth?"

And then they want to see 'Victim Resident' summoned forth and so smotethd before their very eyes, in a most pwn-ful of ways.

As darkness descends upon Victim Resident the last thing they see shall be "Thou hast been smoted, most epically, noob!"

With the results broadcasted onto the official homepage of SL and to all residents in the service; both online and offline.

- Lacking such, the system is obviously worthless and broken.

 

ps: Back when Guild Wars 1 was a big game, about 15 years ago... the above was almost exactly how their abuse report system worked... and there might be a reason why the industry, including ArenaNet themselves; didn't keep or copy that method...

 

I actually witnessed something kind of like this once, actually, back in 2008 or so I think. It happened to a guy I was literally in the middle of talking to in chat: a Linden appeared almost in a cloud of smoke and announced by a thunderbolt, and pow, he was gone. I wasn't the one who ARed him though (although he was probably deserving of one).

It was fricking awesome.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

16 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Back when Guild Wars 1 was a big game, about 15 years ago... the above was almost exactly how their abuse report system worked... and there might be a reason why the industry, including ArenaNet themselves; didn't keep or copy that method...

There are still a few games that do it this way, Runescape (who livestream bot banning) and FFXIV (where your character is literally summoned into a jail cell with a GM) come to mind.

[Alyona Su]

17 hours ago, Anilyse7 said:

I was recently witness to a long discussion involving PLANS and methods to create chairs that will not only SPECIFICALLY skip asking for permissions but automatically steal prims from the sitter without them knowing.

The discussion was about HOW to do so and involved confirmed future plans.

 

One of these people is a succesful creator.

 

I have screenshots. What can be done? Is this reportable? 

In the U.S., at least, calling an idea or speech about something that could be illegal is, in itself called "Prior Restraint" and not a legal thing to do. So until said product exists, there's nothing anyone can or should do about it. If you yell "bomb" in an airport, they will take you into a back room for a couple hours, but they cannot arrest you. Eventually, they slap your hand, wash your mouth with soap, then send you on your way.

Talking about it is not a naughty thing. Acting on it (as in following through) is a naughty thing. Know the difference.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Alyona Su

[Pussycat Catnap]

36 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

There are still a few games that do it this way, Runescape (who livestream bot banning) and FFXIV (where your character is literally summoned into a jail cell with a GM) come to mind.

I've never seen that happen in FFXIV. Then again as you describe - do other people see it?

What Guild Wars 1 did, was the mod literally chased you down publicly in game and zapped you with a big to-do. There used to be videos online taken of it when people happened to be streaming as it happened to someone.

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

49 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

In the U.S., at least, calling an idea or speech about something that could be illegal is, in itself called "Prior Restraint" and not a legal thing to do. So until said product exists, there;'s nothing anyone can or should mod about it. If you yell "bomb" in an airport, they will take you into a back room for a couple hours, but they cannot arrest you. Eventually, that slap your hand, was your mouth out with soap, then send you on your way.

Your naive understanding of the US law is showing again, never mind that comparisons to real life law don't apply in enforcing rules in a video game.

You can absolutely arrest someone with intent to commit a crime. Look up "conspiracy" as the closest example to OP. You can also be charged and found guilty of "intent" to do something.

You will also be arrested if you start yelling bomb in an airport. There are lots of cases like this. Look up "inducing panic," which is at least a misdemeanor but depending on the severity it will be considered a felony.

16 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I've never seen that happen in FFXIV. Then again as you describe - do other people see it?

What Guild Wars 1 did, was the mod literally chased you down publicly in game and zapped you with a big to-do. There used to be videos online taken of it when people happened to be streaming as it happened to someone.

No, it's not public. It's a small closed-off room with just the GM and you. Here's an example (it's about an inappropriate name): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vG3ZlTatF0

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Alyona Su]

37 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You can absolutely arrest someone with intent to commit a crime. Look up "conspiracy" as the closest example to OP. You can also be charged and found guilty of "intent" to do something.

Sure, after a long, deep investigation that yields chargeable evidence.

In the terms of what the OP is describing, good luck with that. There's nothing in the TOS that describes what OP describes. OP can file an AR and let the Lindens determine any wrong-doing or not. They can surely sensor the forums, but cannot otherwise prevent a discussion on such things. I could have explained all that, created a wall-o-text no one cares to read, but no: I choose the pithy, direct explanation, which is 100% correct and you know it. You can debunk me by proffering the details I know about and that no one cares about because irrelevance to the conversation at hand, it doesn't make my OC wrong. It's a contextual thing that many in the forums seem to miss a lot.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Alyona Su

[Wulfie Reanimator]

15 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Sure, after a long, deep investigation that yields chargeable evidence.

In the terms of what the OP is describing, good luck with that. There's nothing in the TOS that describes what OP describes. OP can file an AR and let the Lindens determine any wrong-doing or not. They can surely sensor the forums, but cannot otherwise prevent a discussion on such things. I could have explained all that, created a wall-o-text no one cares to read, but no: I choose the pithy, direct explanation, which is 100% correct and you know it. You can debunk me by proffering the details I know about and that no one cares about because irrelevance to the conversation at hand, it doesn't make my OC wrong. It's a contextual thing that many in the forums seem to miss a lot.

It was already explained by many people that what they're talking about is not against TOS. Your explanation didn't really add anything and your comparison was not correct or valid. I don't disagree with your conclusion but it doesn't matter if the path you took is completely wrong.

[Orwar]

   I heard that if you publish your credit card details online, your neighbor might elope with your cat. I think we need more whipped cream.