Lelutka Evolution?

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

The head has always been a single 1024x1024 texture.  BoM only supports a single 1024x1024 texture for the head.  There is clearly some shenanigans going on if they are describing the skins as HD skins (as Marianne quoted from their FAQ) and they are still a single 1024x1024 and capable of being delivered via BoM even if they have messed around with the UV map.  Just rearranging the UV map cannot be classed as creating support for HD skins in any accepted sense of the term except "for use with HD mode" which isn't what people are expecting when you call them HD skins.

At least the HD make-up did increase the amount of pixels to detail those individual specific areas.  So this is misleading if that is what it is.

These just seem to be Lelutka lock-in UV map skins with no more pixels to increase detailing on the head than before and pointless as far as BoM is concerned.

Ears are not the part of the skin on the HD UV from what I saw, so I suppose they can get a bit more details for the rest from that alone. Maybe there's something more, I didn't look for too long because while I like all those new features I don't care for either of 3 new heads too much. Maybe one of the next few, unless they update existing ones with X's features.

Either way, it's still BoM and not all that much has changed for the skins at least. Lots of BoM skins made for Genus or Catwa don't work well on Lelutka and vice versa. The nostrils and lips are quite often messed up big time. So... what's different if you still gotta buy and use skins specificly made for the brand *Y* vs having to buy/use skin made for brand's "Y HD"?

I suppose it'll take a bit to get new BoM brows and hairbases that work with HD UV, but won't be too long. HD lipsticks are way better than BoM ones, because you can control the opacity and not being stuck with solid color, same for the HD eyeshadows. At least if you like more sublte makeup and not wearing "battle paint" full time.

[Gabriele Graves]

2 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Ears are not the part of the skin on the HD UV from what I saw, so I suppose they can get a bit more details for the rest from that alone. Maybe there's something more, I didn't look for too long because while I like all those new features I don't care for either of 3 new heads too much. Maybe one of the next few, unless they update existing ones with X's features.

If they have punted the ears from the UV map then a BoM skin by itself will never be able to provide the whole head texture, it will have to come with ear appliers at least.  Same goes for anything else like this.  So it looks like the skins at best will be hybrids.

[steeljane42]

8 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If they have punted the ears from the UV map then a BoM skin by itself will never be able to provide the whole head texture, it will have to come with ear appliers at least.  Same goes for anything else like this.  So it looks like the skins at best will be hybrids.

From ther FAQ. But yeah, it's still BoM too.

Q. Why don’t I see any textures on my ears when in Evo X mode?

A. The ears on the new Evo X UV maps were removed to the UNIVERSAL-AUX 1 system layer to achieve an actual HD experience, which means you will need to apply textures to your ears separately (these are included with your heads). Universal layers can be layered up, which will allow you to use ear tattoos like you would with a classic Tattoo layer but with an extra perk of it being FULL HD.

[elise Voxel]

3 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Has anyone found out where the Evo X freckles came from?

But maybe I prefer the freckles I already have... The lighter version.

 

I think it was from one of the glam affair skins made for it

[Laurel Aurelia]

So I bought the Avalon head because I liked the shape of the nose and what I could do with lips. From looking into the stuff that comes with the new heads , I didn't get any impression that they were trying to make appliers be a thing again. In fact they gave us so much BOM make up I was honestly surprised.  Last time I posted, I promised a couple of pics so here we go:

First me with my regular skin on and classic enabled: 

It still has all the previous functionality of the older Evo heads. I look at the evo x portion as sort of a bonus feature you can choose to use. I typically wear a lot of bom layers to give my skin texture and some discoloration.

This is the EVO X skin that comes with Avalon barefaced. This skin  is not my fave, but I think it will be awhile before I switch to a EVO X skin in general. 

This is some of the  bom make up included with the head . The only HD appliers they included are the ones that are in EVO hud already. Not pictured are an oodle of nice looking hair bases and eyeliners too. If anything I think they are wanting to move away from using appliers at all. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Laurel Aurelia

[Orwar]

3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Yeah, yeah, this old chestnut again.  It can be used to hand wave away any critique and commentary but it doesn't change the validity of such things.  It doesn't mean that such things shouldn't be discussed even if it isn't favourable.  That's what's happening here, not "spewing bile" or "cussing at any changes."

   Critique and commentary is good, doomsaying on the forums where it's unlikely it'll reach the ears of the creators isn't particularly constructive though. But I'm curious, where did you learn that the heads won't support the old UV? That's contrary to the information I read in their FAQ, which states that the old UVs will be supported:

 

Q. Does this mean that my Evolution head(s) will become obsolete?

A. Absolutely no, we will still create heads under the Evolution line; as previously mentioned, this is an extension of Evolution.

Q. Will I be able to use skins and content created for Evolution classic on Evolution X?

A. You will be able to use any previously acquired HD Content (makeups, lipsticks, brows) in both Classic and EVO X mode. BOM (Bakes on Mesh) skins obtained before Evolution X can be used in Classic mode. Still, these WILL NOT fit the custom UV map that Evo X uses.

[Gabriele Graves]

10 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Critique and commentary is good, doomsaying on the forums where it's unlikely it'll reach the ears of the creators isn't particularly constructive though. But I'm curious, where did you learn that the heads won't support the old UV? That's contrary to the information I read in their FAQ, which states that the old UVs will be supported:

 

Q. Does this mean that my Evolution head(s) will become obsolete?

A. Absolutely no, we will still create heads under the Evolution line; as previously mentioned, this is an extension of Evolution.

Q. Will I be able to use skins and content created for Evolution classic on Evolution X?

A. You will be able to use any previously acquired HD Content (makeups, lipsticks, brows) in both Classic and EVO X mode. BOM (Bakes on Mesh) skins obtained before Evolution X can be used in Classic mode. Still, these WILL NOT fit the custom UV map that Evo X uses.

I didn't read it anywhere.  I have already stated that Lelutka has form for ditching older features very quickly as a handful of cases show.  I thought it was clear I wasn't talking about in this release but in a shortish time-frame later.

It is hardly doom-saying to extrapolate from their previous behaviour and state an opinion.  You're wrong, critique and commentary is all it is regardless of what you think.  I don't really care if they or anyone else reads it here or not, I posted it because I wanted to say it, nothing more.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Laurel Aurelia]

I missed a whole page of replies some how before I posted. I will try to answer a couple of questions I saw. As of right now you cannot use any of the EVO X bom layers on classic mode as they are so dramatically different. Your EVO X eyebrows end up on your chin if that gives you any indication. 
 

Big ole edit. If I could figure out how to strike out this  bit I would instead of deleting. I was operating on some older info.  Thanks @Marianne Little for the correction!

Edited March 13, 2021 by Laurel Aurelia
Correction

[Marianne Little]

15 hours ago, Laurel Aurelia said:

I missed a whole page of replies some how before I posted. I will try to answer a couple of questions I saw. As of right now you cannot use any of the EVO X bom layers on classic mode as they are so dramatically different. Your EVO X eyebrows end up on your chin if that gives you any indication. 
 

There has been some talk on their discord about if the EVO X features will be added to their older EVO heads, and while they did not give a firm NO , I think they are still trying to figure out how they want to handle it as it is a lot of heads to update. I think they did say they were going to listen to feedback before they make any big decisions though. 

I repost this because it is easy to miss information.

Q. Will Evolution classic be updated to Evolution X features?

A. In weeks to come, Evolution will get all of the features of EvoX except HD skin for now. As for HD skin option itself, we will decide based on your feedback and market response.

https://lelutkasl.com/faq/

Nice! Let us mobilize for HD skins on alle Evo heads. I love my Lake head. ❤️

So they will update the Evo heads, but I am not totally sure how much new features it is, besides the new mapping for the Evo X skin.

I think that is well done of Lelutka. We just have to wait for an update, and I am perfectly fine with that. It is much better than no update.

[Janet Voxel]

I like it. I like it a lot! When there are more skin choice it's going to be madness.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:17 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

In my opinion, the writing is on the wall for BoM support going forward.

I have been a participant/lurker on the Lelutka group for a long time and cannot tell you how much BoM has been plugged and pushed over and over again,

For them to now signal a 100% return to appliers for Evo X mode with the highly likely removal of the BoM/"Classic" feature down the line, I feel they have, in no small way, willfully deceived people about where they were heading.
From those who never wanted to go to BoM who felt they had no other choice for the newer heads and those who embraced BoM, loved it and expected more of a transition towards BoM only and away from appliers, who may find in a short while that BoM is no longer an option either for new heads and or updates to existing heads.

I was probably amongst many who hoped that a future Evo head would make all applier layers optional that had BoM equivalents to give a pure BoM Lelutka head insofar as it is possible.

That is exactly I abandoned Catwa and switched to Lelutka. Because Lelutka looked like it was staying true to BOM and Catwa's HDPro was a big slap in the face against BOM and in favor of more lag...

I just bought another Lelutka head last night for an alt and now I kinda feel betrayed over that decision... If I'd been paying attention to recent news I would NOT have made that purchase.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Pussycat Catnap

[Sorciaa]

20 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That is exactly I abandoned Catwa and switched to Lelutka. Because Lelutka looked like it was staying true to BOM and Catwa's HDPro was a big slap in the face against BOM and in favor of more lag...

I just bought another Lelutka head last night for an alt and now I kinda feel betrayed over that decision... If I'd been paying attention to recent news I would NOT have made that purchase.

Yeah.. i been head shopping since Christmas and going back and forth between getting a HD pro or keeping my Catya.. I normally keep up with all the new stuff coming and the new LeL heads came out of nowhere. Also seems like they are partnered with Legacy for a new body and am wondering of your going to need/want both for the whole " HD " effect...Dont feel like buying both tbh.

[Janet Voxel]

23 minutes ago, Sorciaa said:

Yeah.. i been head shopping since Christmas and going back and forth between getting a HD pro or keeping my Catya.. I normally keep up with all the new stuff coming and the new LeL heads came out of nowhere. Also seems like they are partnered with Legacy for a new body and am wondering of your going to need/want both for the whole " HD " effect...Dont feel like buying both tbh.

As much as I don't like Legacy, the 1.4 version looks pretty good with the EvoX head, zero neck seam. When I change looks in a couple months, that looks like what I'll go to.

I know they're coming out with a Legacy X, but if its a separate body that costs 5k....ummm, I'll stick with what I got.

[Pussycat Catnap]

1 hour ago, Janet Voxel said:

As much as I don't like Legacy, the 1.4 version looks pretty good with the EvoX head, zero neck seam. When I change looks in a couple months, that looks like what I'll go to.

I know they're coming out with a Legacy X, but if its a separate body that costs 5k....ummm, I'll stick with what I got.

Legacy is already SUPER HIGH polygon. Legacy X? I fear that sounds like an SL-killer...

All these HD / X / etc things... it's all the wrong direction. Just spiking up the lag to insane degrees by ramping up too many polygons and too many high-ram textures.

 

This is why I switched from Belleza Freya to Maitreya by the way - Freya is a lag beast with an insane number of polygons. Less laggy than Legacy... but it's close.

Maitreya is at the moment the rare exception to this trend - they went the right way with 5.x - a single layer BOM with reduced polygon count and light weight scripts. Yet one which looks great because rather than just 'slam more into the box' and call it an upgrade they focused on 'craft it better, then call that an upgrade.'

All these other fools just think the more crap you toss in, the better it is... that's just dragging SL down.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Pussycat Catnap

[Janet Voxel]

3 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Legacy is already SUPER HIGH polygon. Legacy X? I fear that sounds like an SL-killer...

All these HD / X / etc things... it's all the wrong direction. Just spiking up the lag to insane degrees by ramping up too many polygons and too many high-ram textures.

 

I mean....I wasn't really talking about that but.....go off.

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 3/11/2021 at 10:39 PM, Orwar said:

   Evo X isn't 'all appliers' though. Evo X's skin is BOM, the difference is that it uses a different UV map than the standard SL avatar model, to allow a higher resolution .. At least that's what their FAQ says.

BOM skins are 1024x1024 and HD is also limited to 1024x1024 because that's a hard limit of SL so what is this higher resolution unless they are splitting the head into multiple faces each with it's own UV...

Yes I know this post in counter to my previous ones in part... in that I'm calling bunk on this whole HD craze. When applied to thinks like eyeliner, lips, ears, etc - as new faces then yes that's adding 16mbs of texture mapping where there used to be 4mb... But if it's a single UV for the head - then it's swapping one 4mb for another 4mb.

I believe later in the thread there's some talk of the ears no longer being in the head UV... so maybe that's it. It's also why this is a subtle effect... because that doesn't shave as much off the UV map as one might think:

You're removing the bottom two corners and shoving some of the other content over there. You will gain some detail, but not much. In exchange though - the ear gets massive added detail, for a part of the body usually not in close focus and often covered by hair.

Seems an odd choice to make to so dramatically increase lag for such small gain.

This explains HD, from someone who still fails to understand the costs of this whole mess:

https://cazimisl.com/2020/03/27/wtf-is-hd/

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

The problem still remains with applier eyeshadow as opposed to BOM.  It will glitch with some hair and hairbases?  This is one thing I love about BOM.  Will this still be an issue with HD applier?  If so, then it's a step backward IMO.

[Pussycat Catnap]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

The problem still remains with applier eyeshadow as opposed to BOM.  It will glitch with some hair and hairbases?  This is one thing I love about BOM.  Will this still be an issue with HD applier?

Almost by definition the answer would have to be yes, it would glitch some things.

The only way to avoid that would be to make the eyeshadow 'alpha mask' at which point it would have hard edges and look horrible,

 

 

[FairreLilette]

5 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Almost by definition the answer would have to be yes, it would glitch some things.

The only way to avoid that would be to make the eyeshadow 'alpha mask' at which point it would have hard edges and look horrible,

 

 

Perhaps they could paint some of the eyeshadows into the skins themselves.  That's the way it used to be done.  BTW, I thought this was a thread about Lelutka Evolution.  I am kind of shocked to hear there is an EVO X now and two new heads.  High def make-ups, I don't have the time for it.  I don't wear much make-up anyways and don't like big fakkies for eyelashes either.  I use the eyelashes made for men which are subtle and often don't clash with hair.  My lips usually look like they have just a soft tint to them and very, very little.  But, all this for HD make-up...bah!  

Edited March 14, 2021 by FairreLilette

[FairreLilette]

9 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

I like it. I like it a lot! When there are more skin choice it's going to be madness.

 

The eye on the right on the bottom curve looks like it wasn't cut right and is uneven.  

[Gabriele Graves]

23 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Perhaps they could paint some of the eyeshadows into the skins themselves.  That's the way it used to be done.

This is a terrible idea and would set things back even further.  People want to buy different make-ups and wouldn't be satisfied with this any longer.  BoM is the right solution to the problem, if a vendor makes their head incompatible with BoM make-ups, even just in one of it's modes, even if they think it is making some advancements in other areas, it is actually regressing in this area and there is no alternative solution that is as good.

Some people may find the alpha problems acceptable though.  Many people who were happy with appliers just lived with it and even though they didn't much like the alpha problems, thought that it was an acceptable trade-off to enable custom make-ups for mesh heads.  They may feel the same way about HD skins and HD make-ups.  That's the gamble they are making.  Who knows if they will pull it off?

I do know I will not be paying to play though.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

This is a terrible idea and would set things back even further.  People want to buy different make-ups and wouldn't be satisfied with this any longer.  BoM is the right solution to the problem, if a vendor makes their head incompatible with BoM make-ups, even just in one of it's modes, even if thinks it is making some advancements in other areas, it is actually regressing in this area and there is no alternative solution that is as good.

Some people may find the alpha problems acceptable though.  Many people who were happy with appliers just lived with it and even though they didn't much like the alpha problems, thought that it was an acceptable trade-off to enable custom make-ups for mesh heads.

Well, I kinda meant include a few skins with a few eyeshadows as a possible compromise but not include tons of colors or anything like that.

However, looking at the eyes in these photos, something looks off on the eyes and uneven in the make of the eyes for the head itself.  I don't know if anyone else sees it but I do.  The rim of the under eye is a curve but the cut of it looks jagged and uneven.  

[Gabriele Graves]

40 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, I kinda meant include a few skins with a few eyeshadows as a possible compromise but not include tons of colors or anything like that.

I don't even think that would work.  The increased area for drawing on the BoM skin with the new UV map is not as much as is available with the HD appliers.  The mouth area including lips is a 1024x1024 texture by itself and the eyeshadow is either two more 1024x1024 textures (one for each eye) or one 1024x1024 for both eyes one 1024x1024 texture which is then mirrored for the other eye.

So BoM make-up on the BoM HD skin isn't going to have the same available pixels.

It's hard to tell exactly because Lelutka no longer makes the UV maps available for Evo HD make-up like they did for Origins.  They say it is for established businesses only.

Correction:  They included them with Evo v1.0/v1.1, moved them to the website for v2.0 and then removed access for all later on sometime saying that established businesses only may apply for them.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Janet Voxel]

2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

The eye on the right on the bottom curve looks like it wasn't cut right and is uneven.  

Like this?

 

[Marianne Little]

I must have missed the part where older Evo do not use a single add-on layer for tattoos/effects.

I ran into an issue with a Kintsugi applier/Bom. Kintsugi in gold should absolutely have materials for the shine.

I could add a layer to Maitreya and get the materials effect, while it was impossible to find some way to add a materials layer to the head.

Using BoM on the head and a materials tattoo layer on the body gave an undesirable contrast between body and head.

After I took the pictures I wondered if I could have used the classic Simone head, but I seem to remember it does not have materials effect on the layers?

And I believe I searched the Evo X demo for a tattoo layer (that can use materials). Have I overlooked it?

Edited March 14, 2021 by Marianne Little
added a few words to clarify