Lelutka Evolution?

[Janet Voxel]

Just now, Pussycat Catnap said:

Ok...

That was my attempt at trying to engage you nicely on your level. After all, why did you mention the detail of the two ears if you didn't want to discuss them?

Whatever...

 

I mentioned it because you can visibly see the lelutka ear has less detail. You're talking about logging into a different viewer and analyzing it in wireframe and count the polygons and then you mansplained it. I'm not doing that. You do it.

[NiranV Dean]

23 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

you mansplained it.

I'm just searching for my Viewer like i usually do, find this topic, completely innocent and i come right into this.

What in the.... i thought we were past this nonsense sexism crap.

[Janet Voxel]

Oh Jesus

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

I'm just searching for my Viewer like i usually do, find this topic, completely innocent and i come right into this.

What in the.... i thought we were past this nonsense sexism crap.

Now where would you ever get that idea from?

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Janet Voxel said:

You're saying it might be, it might not be. She said it IS, that's the difference.

OK.

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Well, you let me know what size the ear texture is when you find out.

I meant you can find out the size of the ear texture as downloaded, not the UV map.

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But answer me this, if the UV for the ear is say 256, why would a skin maker upload a 1024?

I never said they would.  If the UV map is 1024 however, they could reduce it to a 256 to lower amount of graphics data that someone has to load and some people may do that but many will not and needlessly use it as a 1024.  We don't know that the UV map is that small either and the picture of the ears cannot confirm that just because the mesh is coarser.

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From what I know about skin making, which is limited, you work off the size of the UV, which we don't know what size it is.

Exactly.

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Making a texture bigger than it started out as will make the resolution worse.

Of course it would.

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To me, it's assuming the worst of a creator when there is no indication that that is the case.

Didn't say it was the case and I am not assuming the worst of any skin creator.

PS.  I am only answering your question because you asked me to even though I was hesitant to do so because you threw a wobbly.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Janet Voxel]

2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Didn't say it was the case and I am not assuming the worst of any skin creator.

I'm not saying you are, I'm saying she is. 

She just admitted she doesn't have the head, doesn't have the demo, hasn't inspected a single tri or texture and spouted off a whole bunch of conjecture. Which was my point to begin with.

[AdminGirl]

I would have assumed more detail = either larger textures or more polygons or both which then equates to more lag and resources to render/load?

IMO Lelutka's appeal is the shape of their heads. Whenever a Lelutka head has grabbed my attention, it's their realistic human look that did it. I've always just used my Catwa Catya but their free Lilly head is what got me to even consider Lelutka because of its beautiful shape rather than any of their HD features. I suspect most people choose their heads based on shape and also skin availability. All the other features are just extras really.

I love skin details like pores and freckles, even lip details but HD makeup is unnecessary IMO.

Obviously people can use whatever they want, but I've read some people's comments here on the forum saying they only take out their Legacy bodies only on their own home for picture taking to spare other people of lag, which I really appreciate, like A LOT. I guess I feel the same about HD - that level of detail doesn't add much value for everyday use so if they do cause more lag then that's something worth considering. Of course that's just my opinion.

I've been following the furnishing thread and it has educated me a bit more on triangles which I wasn't even aware of before. Most people don't talk or even think about triangles, but they do about lag. I wonder if they're aware of the relationship between the two.

[Finite]

39 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

I would have assumed more detail = either larger textures or more polygons or both which then equates to more lag and resources to render/load?

IMO Lelutka's appeal is the shape of their heads. Whenever a Lelutka head has grabbed my attention, it's their realistic human look that did it. I've always just used my Catwa Catya but their free Lilly head is what got me to even consider Lelutka because of its beautiful shape rather than any of their HD features. I suspect most people choose their heads based on shape and also skin availability. All the other features are just extras really.

That's basically how I came across Lelutka. I was shopping around for a new shape and skin. Was actually looking for something for Genus as I was a bit disappointed a lot of the newer heads seemed ahead of the Catwa ones that I have (I have 5) at like half to 2/3rds the cost. Because of this I wasn't too keen to invest more L into Catwa. I ended up finding a shape/skin combo I liked for Lelutka. Haven't turned back. I think I have 3 Lelutka heads now across multiple toons. Considering a 4th for this one who has Ryn now but might get Nova as well.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Finite

[FairreLilette]

10 hours ago, AdminGirl said:

Most people don't talk or even think about triangles, but they do about lag. I wonder if they're aware of the relationship between the two.

We can derender people so I wonder why we cannot derender other people's stuff.  I understand how avatars coming into my viewer cause lag but I don't understand how other peoples stuff that is not in my computer's view is causing lag.  I can understand script load in a region but not stuff that my computer is not seeing.  

 

10 hours ago, AdminGirl said:

I suspect most people choose their heads based on shape and also skin availability.

I need shape-ability, meaning to go beyond the traditional human form and have the ability to shape in many ways into fantasy human form, such as fairy, elf, etc.  And, availability of skins.  So, yes what you wrote.  I don't see a need for HD make-up in my SL at current.  It's getting to be a bit of a hassle with too many new things throw at people at once.  Slow down a bit, imo.

[Orwar]

7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

We can derender people so I wonder why we cannot derender other people's stuff.  I understand how avatars coming into my viewer cause lag but I don't understand how other peoples stuff that is not in my computer's view is causing lag.  I can understand script load in a region but not stuff that my computer is not seeing.  

   We can derender other people's stuff. In FS it's right-click -> more -> more -> derender -> Temporarily (until you relog or re-enter the region) or Blacklist (permanently - until you go into your blacklist and remove it). 

   How things are rendered is a bit more complicated. Ideally, the viewer should only render what's within your view (though as far as I've understood it, it will render everything in any given direction even if it's behind a wall, up to your maximum draw distance). As you move your camera around, you'll start rendering stuff in different directions. 

[FairreLilette]

6 hours ago, Orwar said:

 We can derender other people's stuff. In FS it's right-click -> more -> more -> derender -> Temporarily (until you relog or re-enter the region) or Blacklist (permanently - until you go into your blacklist and remove it). 

I know about this but I meant with one click just derender everything like we can by using the feature show friends only.  I know if I'm at a very busy event, my friends are very unlikely to be there also so all avatars disappear at very large events once I click show friends only.  So, I mean derendering all our neighbor's objects all at once as some say someone's Nutmeg stuff is lagging them up for example - lol.  I didn't understand why someone's stuff, as you also wrote, behind a wall is lagging anyone or me (other than scripts was all I could figure out) - but then you went on to say (below) it's because of the draw distance.  Hmmmmm.   I know I've been told many times since my beginning in SL one of the things to do to reduce lag is to reduce our draw distance.  I try to keep it low.  I have an expansive  place I build in and sometimes have forgotten I raised it.  

 

6 hours ago, Orwar said:

 How things are rendered is a bit more complicated. Ideally, the viewer should only render what's within your view (though as far as I've understood it, it will render everything in any given direction even if it's behind a wall, up to your maximum draw distance). As you move your camera around, you'll start rendering stuff in different directions. 

  

[Orwar]

59 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I know about this but I meant with one click just derender everything like we can by using the feature show friends only.

   Oh - well there's a trick for that. Open area search, type in the name of whoever's stuff you want to derender, select everything that appears in the list, right-click and 'blacklist'.

[NiranV Dean]

On 3/15/2021 at 1:07 AM, Rowan Amore said:

Now where would you ever get that idea from?

Ah right. 2021 ladies n gentlemen. The world is going down.

[Irina Forwzy]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:19 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

It is extremely difficult to displace a brand that dominates a market.  There is the possibility that Lelutka was just building traction and it took a long while.  It could have been any number of reasons including mis-steps by other brands.  The bottom line is that nobody knows why Lelutka really gained the prominence they have currently and I very much doubt it can be attributed conclusively to the Evo line.  All this is pure conjecture.

I have been lurking here because I am ambivalent about the head as my friend has probably noted from our Ims (waves at Laurel).  However, I needed to make a comment about the Catwa market shifting to Genus and Lelutka. This I state from the point of view of someone that got into Catwa for a while, but never fully loved her head lines (though Kathy can be edited to the 10th of a degree).

1.  Catwa's may have been leading the market but she tended to create the same type of heads and profiles. For the most part they all looked similar.  Except for a couple here and there. Lack of diversity in shape made some people that were never fully 100% fans shift.  This, and the tendency of making young looking faces that reminded ones of teens, in some cases was making some individuals reconsider Catwa for their next head. And their uber expensive prices.

2. Several DMCAs started to be placed on other companies by Catwa's creator. For heads that quite honestly didn't look to be copyrighted. Thus people started feeling ambivalent about the creator. Some actually starting to see an odd pattern.  This tends to shift people from loyalty.

3. The introduction of BOM and HD within the newer lines of competitors such as Genus and Lelutka were also more advanced than Catwa. And in the world of technology and business, you can't stay behind. Eventually competitors will come in and fill in the gap.

4. Promotional Freebies:  Free heads.  Lelutka and Genus offered a free head so anyone that didn't fall inter the first two groups eventually switched when they gave out free heads. And this is why promotions works.  Anyone that was in camp 1 or 2, now was getting a free head. If they liked the head, they'd grab another one in a sale or at regular price, the heads were cheaper than Catwa anyway.

5.  Sales:  I noticed more yearly sales in Lelutka (Black Friday) than in Catwa. This along with the free head makes any person that is kind of in the ambivalent corner or about to jump ship, do just that. Keeping in mind that Catwa if I recall was increasing their head cost and they were starting to charge the equivalent of an arm and a leg.

I actually fell under the first category and a couple of my friends fell under the second one. I had liked the certain ethereal - Lara Pulver aesthetic I had going with my Akeruka Lara head.  However, since everyone had Catwa appliers, and I liked them too much I started to check for Catwa's heads to see which one I could edit enough to look completely different from the origin.  That ended up being the Catwa Kathy head.  However, as soon as I liked a Lelutka head I moved toward her line and haven't looked back.

Right now I'm using Lelutka's Lake. I've considered getting Sasha since I was able to modify her enough to look like Eva Green.  However, this has made me reconsider that purchase.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Irina Forwzy

[Orwar]

5 hours ago, Irina Forwzy said:

2. Several DMCAs started to be placed on other companies by Catwa's creator. For heads that quite honestly didn't look to be copyrighted. Thus people started feeling ambivalent about the creator. Some actually starting to see an odd pattern.  This tends to shift people from loyalty.

   This is the result of rumours playing Chinese Whispers until there's hardly any fact left alive. 

   And this is your conclusion based on .. What? Your personal experience? A couple of angry posters on Reddit, Virtual Secrets, Facebook, these forums, and Flickr? What 'people'? A couple of intrigue-fuelled gossips in a world of people who probably neither know or care about the drama behind the scenes. Obviously not enough to put Catwa out of business from a solidary boycott.

   I'd advise pretty much anyone who uploads 'stuff' to the Internet, and SL users in particular, to familiarise themselves with what a DMCA actually is, you can do so here:

 

5 hours ago, Irina Forwzy said:

4. Promotional Freebies:  Free heads.  Lelutka and Genus offered a free head so anyone that didn't fall inter the first two groups eventually switched when they gave out free heads. And this is why promotions works.  Anyone that was in camp 1 or 2, now was getting a free head. If they liked the head, they'd grab another one in a sale or at regular price, the heads were cheaper than Catwa anyway.

  Catwa's Freya head was free, that wasn't that long ago.

   And they're doing a promo right now - the demo for their new head is out on the MP, and tomorrow the head itself is released as a dollarbie for 24 hours.

   I also find it prudent to point out at this point, that I am in no way affiliated to any brands producing mesh heads.

   There's plenty of valid criticism towards pretty much any big brand in SL, I think that's much more interesting than utter garbage the likes of 'the creator of XYZ* is actually a woman in RL and is dishonest with their customers because they don't declare this!**' 

  *XYZ in this context being 'insert brand here', not an actual brand of that name if such exists.
   ** This is an actual thing that happened last year.

[Janet Voxel]

I’m glad people are starting to fact check!

[Orwar]

26 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I’m glad

   I'm going to have to ask that you present your sources ... 

[Janet Voxel]

34 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I'm going to have to ask that you present your sources ... 

Give me a minute, I need to find some blog posts....

[Irina Forwzy]

14 hours ago, Orwar said:

   This is the result of rumours playing Chinese Whispers until there's hardly any fact left alive. 

   And this is your conclusion based on .. What? Your personal experience? A couple of angry posters on Reddit, Virtual Secrets, Facebook, these forums, and Flickr? What 'people'? A couple of intrigue-fuelled gossips in a world of people who probably neither know or care about the drama behind the scenes. Obviously not enough to put Catwa out of business from a solidary boycott.

   I'd advise pretty much anyone who uploads 'stuff' to the Internet, and SL users in particular, to familiarise themselves with what a DMCA actually is, you can do so here:

 

  Catwa's Freya head was free, that wasn't that long ago.

   And they're doing a promo right now - the demo for their new head is out on the MP, and tomorrow the head itself is released as a dollarbie for 24 hours.

   I also find it prudent to point out at this point, that I am in no way affiliated to any brands producing mesh heads.

   There's plenty of valid criticism towards pretty much any big brand in SL, I think that's much more interesting than utter garbage the likes of 'the creator of XYZ* is actually a woman in RL and is dishonest with their customers because they don't declare this!**' 

  *XYZ in this context being 'insert brand here', not an actual brand of that name if such exists.
   ** This is an actual thing that happened last year.

I didn't name it as the primary source but one that some users did mention. I do have some SL friends that noticed that and were commenting it to me. Now I'm not saying it was the main cause. The main cause was probably the normal one that drives RL restaurants and businesses that are in the top position to eventually become second to their competition a stale business model that isn't agile in nature and doesn't adapt to the changing end user wants or needs.  The rumors do always impact a business (we can look at RL for examples of this as well).  Assume the first two reasons are a percentage such as 10-20%, that one 1-5%,  of the user base, the rest were through the promotions and eventual free head but were influenced by some of these items mentioned in my list. 

And yes, most of my friends left Catwa around the time that Genus and Lelutka pulled out their heads with newer features which also coincided around the DMCA time frame.   Though I get it, correlation doesn't always equal causation. And none of my comments were in reference to putting Catwa out of business. Rather, they are opinions and views that I have been met with and also share.  However, they no longer lead the rest of the heads and that's not just due to one reason, but rather to a combination of them.  You have Lelutka leading at this point.  Of course, give us a year and it may very well be Genus or a newer store none of us know.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Irina Forwzy

[RitaCallisto]

I really gotta ask, because it's bothering me to no end. Love Lelutka heads, always have(RIP my beloved Zoe).. but i'm noticing my Briannon head looks.. indented. The middle of her face basically has a craterous look to it. Adjusting eye depth, nose, cheeks, whatever.. nothing helps and it just looks incredibly strange to me. Am I missing something, or is this just how it's gotta be?

Over here lookin' like I was beamed in the middle of the face with a softball that broke every bone in the area lol

[Finite]

2 hours ago, RitaCallisto said:

I really gotta ask, because it's bothering me to no end. Love Lelutka heads, always have(RIP my beloved Zoe).. but i'm noticing my Briannon head looks.. indented. The middle of her face basically has a craterous look to it. Adjusting eye depth, nose, cheeks, whatever.. nothing helps and it just looks incredibly strange to me. Am I missing something, or is this just how it's gotta be?

Over here lookin' like I was beamed in the middle of the face with a softball that broke every bone in the area lol

If you updated your head to the newer version, the sliders are different which could cause slight variation in relation to whatever shape you were using previously. You probably just need to tweak your head shape some.

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, Finite said:

If you updated your head to the newer version, the sliders are different which could cause slight variation in relation to whatever shape you were using previously. You probably just need to tweak your head shape some.

That's what I was thinking and why I've yet to update.  I just haven't felt like redoing my whole face yet again.

[Irina Forwzy]

Agree with this. I believe they updated the head but didn't create a new shape for it. I haven't updated my Lake for this very reason. I fear redoing it, but never really having the same shape/look.

[RitaCallisto]

3 hours ago, Finite said:

If you updated your head to the newer version, the sliders are different which could cause slight variation in relation to whatever shape you were using previously. You probably just need to tweak your head shape some.

I've messed with it quite a bit. It just seems like the mesh dips in near the center of the face. Closest i've been able to get it is to widen the bridge of the nose a lot. Still a noticeable dip, though.. it's like there's little bone structure in that area. Head looks beautiful from the front, but three-quarter and side view kind of makes me recoil a bit.. it's so flat looking.

So people can see what i'm talking about lol.. maybe it doesn't bother some, but as an artist it bothers me oh so much.

Edited March 26, 2021 by RitaCallisto

[missyrideout]

@RitaCallisto to me it looks like low head length. If head length is 50 then yeah I agree. But try bumping it up 3-5 points anyway. Apologies if this was already obvious / tried.