Lelutka Evolution?

[steeljane42]

2 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I don't BTW, which is why I don't want this HD stuff lagging up my SL.

I suggest staying at your own place then and never going outside. Because, and I said it many times already, bodies and heads are just the tip of the iceberg. Most (longer) hairstyles are heavier than belleza/legacy bodies, lots of outfits are times heavier than those too. I got one at Equal10's last round. It's 1.5m triangles. And yes, I saw it before buying it. Crying about HD makeup when you probably bump into people wearing same kind of outfits all the time is rather.. unwise.

4 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I have always thought the main reason Lelutka's heads sell is because of their looks primarily and ease of use secondarily, not because they are crammed with every feature out there.

They weren't nearly as popular before Evolution line, which introduced HD makeup. I had Simone since original release and non bento one before that, back then it was Catwa's market for everything and anything, while Lel's heads were way easier to use and (in my opinion) better looking than cartoon-ish ones from Catwa.

Now people can argue it's because their first bento line wasn't as interesting and different, and I'll agree, their heads were rather similar back then (but same can be said about catwa's), but Evo line did boost their popularity enough to became a market leader as far as new things are considered, it can easily be seen by amount of content released on all popular events. So from that point - new features sell and they sell well. Especially when combined with same easy to use HUD and pretty look. Catwa's HDPro are also packed with features, even deformers, but I barely see any in world. And no, while 2k L$ price difference is a thing, it's not the deciding factor for most people. One fatpack of any clothing is usually more than that.

And as always it's worth to remember that forum is just a very low sample size of "concerned" people. Lag, triangles, VRAM, complexity etc. Regular SL users who is into vanity stuff just wants to look pretty, and they spend considerable amount of time and money on that. So I think the only big complaint I saw in world about new X series and HD stuff in general is old heads not being updated with HD skin (yet or at all).

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, steeljane42 said:

They weren't nearly as popular before Evolution line, which introduced HD makeup. I had Simone since original release and non bento one before that, back then it was Catwa's market for everything and anything, while Lel's heads were way easier to use and (in my opinion) better looking than cartoon-ish ones from Catwa.

Now people can argue it's because their first bento line wasn't as interesting and different, and I'll agree, their heads were rather similar back then (but same can be said about catwa's), but Evo line did boost their popularity enough to became a market leader as far as new things are considered, it can easily be seen by amount of content released on all popular events. So from that point - new features sell and they sell well. Especially when combined with same easy to use HUD and pretty look. Catwa's HDPro are also packed with features, even deformers, but I barely see any in world. And no, while 2k L$ price difference is a thing, it's not the deciding factor for most people. One fatpack of any clothing is usually more than that.

And as always it's worth to remember that forum is just a very low sample size of "concerned" people. Lag, triangles, VRAM, complexity etc. Regular SL users who is into vanity stuff just wants to look pretty, and they spend considerable amount of time and money on that. So I think the only big complaint I saw in world about new X series and HD stuff in general is old heads not being updated with HD skin (yet or at all).

It is extremely difficult to displace a brand that dominates a market.  There is the possibility that Lelutka was just building traction and it took a long while.  It could have been any number of reasons including mis-steps by other brands.  The bottom line is that nobody knows why Lelutka really gained the prominence they have currently and I very much doubt it can be attributed conclusively to the Evo line.  All this is pure conjecture.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Just now, steeljane42 said:

I suggest staying at your own place then and never going outside. Because, and I said it many times already, bodies and heads are just the tip of the iceberg. Most (longer) hairstyles are heavier than belleza/legacy bodies, lots of outfits are times heavier than those too. I got one at Equal10's last round. It's 1.5m triangles. And yes, I saw it before buying it. Crying about HD makeup when you probably bump into people wearing same kind of outfits all the time is rather.. unwise.

That's a head in the sand 'just give up' perspective...

If things start trending in the wrong direction, you call it out, push for change.

Look at how many folks are putting in proportion kits with their bodies and in their CSR groups these days?

Who do you think started that BTW? I'll give you a hint, you just called them unwise...

Took years to do, but now the horrendously bad proportioned avatars are becoming the exception rather than the rule.

Before that, we all went down this path with resizer scripts that were in each individual prim...

Before that, there was dealing with the issues of bad overuse of flexi - a lag issue BTW.

Notice also how the average mesh item today is NOT a gazillion in complexity, and a good half of them got down to lower values WITHOUT cheating. Half still cheat - this is a battle in progress.

 

Many times, content creators in SL have gone the wrong way, and the push to correct them has started with a few voices, and grown over time as more people caught on.

 

These HD things can have their place, but they should also be resisted in terms of attempts to make them a new default. We've only just managed to get people to see that BOM is a good idea, and much of that is about lag BTW... and now we've got these folks trying to abandon it again.

Which means it's time to push back.

 

[missyrideout]

20 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

And no, while 2k L$ price difference is a thing, it's not the deciding factor for most people.

Gotta disagree. Price is a HUGE factor. I think Lelutka's current surge in popularity comes down to one thing: they gave away the best free head of any of the major brands.

[Orwar]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It could have been any number of reasons including mis-steps by other brands.  The bottom line is that nobody knows why Lelutka really gained the prominence they have currently and I very much doubt it can be attributed conclusively to the Evo line.  All this is pure conjecture.

   Well, I don't have any actual data, so this is purely based on my own observations; I think it was pretty clear that Catwa was the dominant brand for quite a long time, Catya alone was seen -everywhere-, and still remains popular to this day. For a long time, I didn't even realise that Lelutka and LAQ were two different brands. Vista and GA.EG never felt as if either of them made it particularly big. Genus was a bit of a breakthrough when they launched, their heads felt way ahead of the curve .. But during and after the DMCA, it lost traction, and now it's been a long time since they made any updates which makes them feel a bit outdated. Lelutka's Evo line was comparable to Genus in terms of 'smoothness' of the heads, Catwa's HDPro came relatively recently when Genus and Lelutka had established themselves as serious contenders.

   I'm not sure which other brands, if any, has stayed on top of the curve the way Catwa and Lelutka has. The universal neck is huge, it's the one feature that made me finally ditch my Genus and go for Lelutka on my first alt, after having experienced it on my secondary alt with the free Lilly head. 

   Genus also has HD makeup, but it's a feature I personally never cared for - lips, fine, those I seldom have any hair in front of, but eyeshadows (and I do love my eyeshadows) just don't work in HD for me. It also feels like a rather pointless feature as even if you do a high resolution close-up shot, the difference between HD and BOM is minimal - the only thing HD has going for it is its ability to use materials (which, frankly, only matters if you're using something very glossy or sparkly - and as far as lips go, Lelutka already has separate materials on the lips that work just fine unless you have some very particular lipstick design wherein the whole lips aren't covered). 

   I can't answer when or why Lelutka came to where they're at, it may well have been a slow but steady process, but I think the release of Lilly was pretty huge for them; it certainly increased both publicity and the amount of creators catering to them.

[Rowan Amore]

26 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

This is why I have been stocking up on the good BoM make-ups I can find and seeking out new shops that want to stay in that space.  It is getting harder and harder to find non-HD make-ups for Lelutka though.  The same will happen to BoM head skins for the SLUV map if HD-skins take off.  Once a vendor transitions their make-ups and/or skins, they seem to lose interest very quickly in bringing out anything for the existing heads despite the fact they cannot possibly know how many people have moved off those products at that point.

I've had some luck with a few brands Genus eye shadow.  It's hit or miss but doable if a lelutka option isn't available.

[Rowan Amore]

32 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

  Regular SL users who is into vanity stuff just wants to look pretty, and they spend considerable amount of time and money on that. So I think the only big complaint I saw in world about new X series and HD stuff in general is old heads not being updated with HD skin (yet or at all).

Just because something is new doesn't mean it's an improvement yet some people still think that's the case.  As far as looking pretty and spending money on that?  I already do!  And without HD!

 

[Janet Voxel]

1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

If you don't, then why are we getting HD?

I don't BTW, which is why I don't want this HD stuff lagging up my SL.

I wasn't going to do it, but since nobody else picked up on it, Imma just go ahead and do it because bad takes kill me.

21 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

BOM skins are 1024x1024 and HD is also limited to 1024x1024 because that's a hard limit of SL so what is this higher resolution unless they are splitting the head into multiple faces each with it's own UV...

Yes I know this post in counter to my previous ones in part... in that I'm calling bunk on this whole HD craze. When applied to thinks like eyeliner, lips, ears, etc - as new faces then yes that's adding 16mbs of texture mapping where there used to be 4mb... But if it's a single UV for the head - then it's swapping one 4mb for another 4mb.

I believe later in the thread there's some talk of the ears no longer being in the head UV... so maybe that's it. It's also why this is a subtle effect... because that doesn't shave as much off the UV map as one might think:

You're removing the bottom two corners and shoving some of the other content over there. You will gain some detail, but not much. In exchange though - the ear gets massive added detail, for a part of the body usually not in close focus and often covered by hair.

Seems an odd choice to make to so dramatically increase lag for such small gain.

This explains HD, from someone who still fails to understand the costs of this whole mess:

https://cazimisl.com/2020/03/27/wtf-is-hd/

 

 

You basically explained the whole thing right there. They took the ears off the UV map, allowing for greater detail for the face. I'm not sure the ears are 1024 (Are you sure the ears are 1024? Don't answer that because you aren't), because from my experience wearing the head the ears seem to lack a lot of detail and are easily the worse part of the head. Now if you went the route that it might be harder for a new user to wrap their head around wearing a separate ear texture, I'd be with you 100% or if you went the route that skin makers might not adopt the idea of their new UV map, I'd be with you on that one too. But you didn't. You went the they're using more textures, killing SL in the process route. When really and you also said this, they optimized the UV map for more detail on the face and sacrificed detail on the ears, which are hardly seen. 

So in effect, they basically optimized the head without adding more textures to it.

[Gabriele Graves]

14 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I can't answer when or why Lelutka came to where they're at, it may well have been a slow but steady process, but I think the release of Lilly was pretty huge for them; it certainly increased both publicity and the amount of creators catering to them.

The support for Lelutka's heads in terms of BoM make-ups and skins was already rising long before Lilly came along.  There is no doubt that Lilly was a big deal, I would never argue against that.  How could it not be?  However I would also wager that it was mostly about the aesthetics and not because of the HD make-ups.

Comments I see on the Lelutka groups are all about how people love the way the heads look and that is what prompted them to move to or stay with Lelutka.  So of course when Evo came along, a change in the variety of looks that came with them will have contributed to their increased popularity.  Not one person I have seen in group or out of group has ever mentioned that they moved to Evo primarily because of HD make-ups.

 

[Gabriele Graves]

23 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've had some luck with a few brands Genus eye shadow.  It's hit or miss but doable if a lelutka option isn't available.

Yes, I have also had some good results with some Genus eye shadows as well.  It is a bit hit and miss though.  That is at least something.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I wasn't going to do it, but since nobody else picked up on it, Imma just go ahead and do it because bad takes kill me.

You basically explained the whole thing right there. They took the ears off the UV map, allowing for greater detail for the face. I'm not sure the ears are 1024 (Are you sure the ears are 1024? Don't answer that because you aren't), because from my experience wearing the head the ears seem to lack a lot of detail and are easily the worse part of the head. Now if you went the route that it might be harder for a new user to wrap their head around wearing a separate ear texture, I'd be with you 100% or if you went the route that skin makers might not adopt the idea of their new UV map, I'd be with you on that one too. But you didn't. You went the they're using more textures, killing SL in the process route. When really and you also said this, they optimized the UV map for more detail on the face and sacrificed detail on the ears, which are hardly seen. 

So in effect, they basically optimized the head without adding more textures to it.

The ears will be on a texture of their own, whether they use the whole texture is up for debate but it makes no difference.  It will be one of these options:

1. Both ears are on an extra texture
2. Each ear has it's own texture
3. One ear has it's own texture and it is mirrored to the other ear.

So at minimum there is one more texture, maximum two.

I don't know what the resolution of that/those textures are but be very surprised if they aren't 1024x1024.

[FairreLilette]

4 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Comments I see on the Lelutka groups are all about how people love the way the heads look and that is what prompted them to move to or stay with Lelutka.

Yeah, I agree with this Gabriele and I think Lelutka has the most realistic human faces.  I've already said RYN was their work of art, imo.  I haven't seen the new heads yet but human faces and high def make-up isn't necessary for me - it's a look I want.  I love Catwa because I can create shapes outside the human and go into more fantasy type looks - mostly fairy or doll, I like.  Catwa head's also look amazing in Midday light which I need for building.  I have Lelutka and LAQ heads and when building in Midday in those they don't look good.

I have a question about all this.  Is this HD make-up stuff for ULTRA graphics or not?  It might not look that good without ULTRA graphics.  Plus, if this takes off, is this where bodies are headed?  I don't have enough time to fiddle around with materials and it's not the direction I need  nor want for my photographs to take right now, though I have seen photos using materials and I like them a lot but also find that materials looks kind of doll-like but I love doll-like and want doll-like.  So, I don't know where I fit in right now.

[Janet Voxel]

Here's a Genus ear:

Here's a Lelutka EvoX ear

I'd say the Lelutka ear has less detail. It's definitely modeled more simply.

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I don't know what the resolution of that/those textures are but be very surprised if they aren't 1024x1024.

   That's up to the skin maker. UV maps don't have resolution as such, it's the resolution of the texture that matters - if you upload a 256 x 256 texture and put it on any surface that is UV mapped, the UV map is scaled to fit the texture resolution. 

   ... Of course, knowing how people will quite happily upload a 1024 x 1024 texture for a single button on a piece of clothing, I expect that's what most people will do for ears, too.

[Gabriele Graves]

That looks to me that the mesh is simpler as I can see some jagginess, however that it doesn't mean it isn't a 1024 texture though.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Orwar said:

   That's up to the skin maker. UV maps don't have resolution as such, it's the resolution of the texture that matters - if you upload a 256 x 256 texture and put it on any surface that is UV mapped, the UV map is scaled to fit the texture resolution. 

   ... Of course, knowing how people will quite happily upload a 1024 x 1024 texture for a single button on a piece of clothing, I expect that's what most people will do for ears, too.

All very true.

[Janet Voxel]

12 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

The ears will be on a texture of their own, whether they use the whole texture is up for debate but it makes no difference.  It will be one of these options:

1. Both ears are on an extra texture
2. Each ear has it's own texture
3. One ear has it's own texture and it is mirrored to the other ear.

So at minimum there is one more texture, maximum two.

I don't know what the resolution of that/those textures are but be very surprised if they aren't 1024x1024.

That's not what I'm saying though.

22 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

 

In exchange though - the ear gets massive added detail, for a part of the body usually not in close focus and often covered by hair.

The ear doesn't have massive detail, and it being a 1024 is unknown. We could split hairs about that, but its not worth it, because the only people that know what size the texture of the ear is have a kit. 

[Gabriele Graves]

7 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

That's not what I'm saying though.

The ear doesn't have massive detail, and it being a 1024 is unknown.

That is what I did say as well.

7 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

 

We could split hairs about that, but its not worth it, because the only people that know what size the texture of the ear is have a kit. 

Certainly isn't worth splitting hairs over but it doesn't mean PussyCat is wrong either.  It is definitely possible to find out what the texture size is in any instance but as Orwar said, it will depend on each skin maker.

[steeljane42]

53 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That's a head in the sand 'just give up' perspective...

If things start trending in the wrong direction, you call it out, push for change.

Look at how many folks are putting in proportion kits with their bodies and in their CSR groups these days?

Who do you think started that BTW? I'll give you a hint, you just called them unwise...

Being wise in one thing doesn't make someone wise in everything else, though. I'm pretty good with history and geography, but useless with math to give you an obvious example for myself. Besides you, as I remember, were the die hard belleza fan for years, until learned how to check triangles and it suddenly became "laggy", which was the case since its release even compared to pre-bom maitreya, around 2.5 as heavy.

As for the rest - subjective. You think it's a trend into the wrong direction, I think it's a good one. So push it back all you want, there will be enough of a pushing forward for it as well, though.

1 hour ago, missyrideout said:

Gotta disagree. Price is a HUGE factor. I think Lelutka's current surge in popularity comes down to one thing: they gave away the best free head of any of the major brands.

Free head was given out around Xmax, and their heads and content for them were all over the grid way before that.

 

49 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Just because something is new doesn't mean it's an improvement yet some people still think that's the case.  As far as looking pretty and spending money on that?  I already do!  And without HD!

Not going to argue with that. Do what you feel is right, as long as you're happy with it and your look. But people said exactly the same thing when the first mesh bodies were released. How they already look pretty in their "standard sizes" mesh or even non mesh clothing, and how you might need feet and hands at best, while mesh bodies are redundant. Then same thing happened about mesh heads, and look around the grid now. Places where I check are nearly 100% mesh bodies/heads. I wasn't around back then, but I'm sure the prim to sculpty change was no different either.

[Janet Voxel]

5 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

That is what I did say as well.

Certainly isn't worth splitting hairs over but it doesn't mean PussyCat is wrong either.  It is definitely possible to find out what the texture size is in any instance but as Orwar said, it will depend on each skin maker.

You're saying it might be, it might not be. She said it IS, that's the difference.

Well, you let me know what size the ear texture is when you find out. But answer me this, if the UV for the ear is say 256, why would a skin maker upload a 1024? From what I know about skin making, which is limited, you work off the size of the UV, which we don't know what size it is. Making a texture bigger than it started out as will make the resolution worse.

To me, it's assuming the worst of a creator when there is no indication that that is the case.

[Pussycat Catnap]

5 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

So in effect, they basically optimized the head without adding more textures to it.

If that is the case, I'll look it over, count the textures, and see what we've got.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Just now, Janet Voxel said:

Here's a Genus ear:

Here's a Lelutka EvoX ear

I'd say the Lelutka ear has less detail. It's definitely modeled more simply.

I can't do this (yet) as I lack Evo X demos (yet).

But view it in wireframe. Also, and I forget how to do this off hand with the official viewer or firestorm, but in dragon viewer it's easy: look for the polygon counts.

What you want to see... would be the polygon count go DOWN while the appearance quality goes UP.

- ie: the more skilled the 3D modeler, the more they can do with less polygons.

Next you would want to see how those polygons are positioned / shaped - and for this, you'd have to have modeling skills yourself to be able to tell good from bad. But the 'angles' and shapes of the polygons can play a MASSIVE effect on how well it rigs and animates.

Lelutka claims they improved rigging in Evo between 2.0 and 2.5 - and I suspect that had to do with moving polygons into better positions so they could be 'bent and shaped' more easily.

- But analyzing that part is beyond my skill level.

 

[Janet Voxel]

1 minute ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I can't do this (yet) as I lack Evo X demos (yet).

But view it in wireframe. Also, and I forget how to do this off hand with the official viewer or firestorm, but in dragon viewer it's easy: look for the polygon counts.

What you want to see... would be the polygon count go DOWN while the appearance quality goes UP.

- ie: the more skilled the 3D modeler, the more they can do with less polygons.

Next you would want to see how those polygons are positioned / shaped - and for this, you'd have to have modeling skills yourself to be able to tell good from bad. But the 'angles' and shapes of the polygons can play a MASSIVE effect on how well it rigs and animates.

Lelutka claims they improved rigging in Evo between 2.0 and 2.5 - and I suspect that had to do with moving polygons into better positions so they could be 'bent and shaped' more easily.

- But analyzing that part is beyond my skill level.

 

MAAAAAAAANNN, I'm not turbo nerding this for you. 

Do it yourself. Grab a demo and do ya homework.

Y'all are a trip.

[missyrideout]

35 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Free head was given out around Xmax, and their heads and content for them were all over the grid way before that.

Definitely. First Evo heads, Jan 06 2020. The pandemic hits and Lelu sets their stay at home price of 3990. Then the Genus DMCA. Even with Genus unavailable, Evo didn't yet have a head that appealed to the babyface crowd and so Genus-only releases were still super common, EVEN with the head itself unavailable! September-ish when Genus returned, Catwa HD also came out. So, one brand with no visible momentum and another with a much higher price tag. Shortly thereafter an extended Black Friday sale put Lelu heads at less than 2000L$. Then Lilly who was not only free but also an appealing shape for the babyface crowd.  So I guess in my mind it was Lilly that capped a year of amazing success for Lelutka and cemented them as the top brand.

I suspect if mesh head statistics were drilled down to individual models, Lilly would be the single most popular head on the grid. Not only because it was free but ....because it was free.  In fact, resident Lucia Nightfire had collected some stats on individual heads.

 

Note that Catwa Catya is still one of the most popular heads on the grid...because outside of the bubble of power shoppers where 6k is not the biggest factor in buying a new head, many residents simply don't want to spend that much money. Again, price is a huge factor.

Edited March 14, 2021 by missyrideout

[Pussycat Catnap]

Just now, Janet Voxel said:

MAAAAAAAANNN, I'm not turbo nerding this for you. 

Do it yourself. Grab a demo and do ya homework.

Y'all are a trip.

Ok...

That was my attempt at trying to engage you nicely on your level. After all, why did you mention the detail of the two ears if you didn't want to discuss them?

Whatever...