Orwar Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/22/2019 at 5:48 PM, MrsSeren said: I admit I met @Orwar hosting however I don't think I actually ever bother him or few other people from forum to actually to come to my host sets, not sure if I actually invited them or set them mass chat as I know for sure never done the mass tp; hell when not working or working I have teleport requests on reject because that is annoying and have conference chats on reject too. I have in my picks when I work and where; however up to you if you want visit; as won't hold gun to your head say visit me at work! LOL Well, you're still on my contact list, so you've done good! Having worked in the club business, I've had much too many DJs and hosts spamming me with group calls and chats - even when I've been the host standing next to them. On a good day, I dislike people in general; catch me on a bad day with some brain-dead spam-invite to some dull venue with a pop-monger at the helm, and there will be blood. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Orwar said: Having worked in the club business, I've had much too many DJs and hosts spamming me with group calls and chats - even when I've been the host standing next to them. On a good day, I dislike people in general; That seems a strange choice of activity/employment for a self-confessed misanthrope. Then again, we all benefited from Basil Fawlty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Just now, Amina Sopwith said: That seems a strange choice of activity/employment for a self-confessed misanthrope. Then again, we all benefited from Basil Fawlty. My sisters nagged me into it. I figured I'd might as well give it a try; even unpleasant experiences are experiences, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Just now, Orwar said: My sisters nagged me into it. I figured I'd might as well give it a try; even unpleasant experiences are experiences, after all. Don't mention the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 48 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said: And then they double down on it... yup... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choobaloo Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said: The OP that did a drive-by post and was never heard from again? No, I'm still here. Just reading all the interesting replies. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Beth Macbain said: Can someone explain to me why it's so offensive that some clubs charge high membership fees? I did my best to explain why I used to seek them out, but no one really responded so I assumed people understood why it's preferable to some of us. Much like with the discussion about people selling shapes on the other thread, if you don't like it, don't join, but why is there this need to act like it's such a terrible thing? TLDR; Context is what makes all the difference. It's not always the fact that the division (or insert any number of other things you want here) is used, but rather, how. There is a difference between groups, places, etc.. that are formed for inclusion purposes and those designed for exclusion purposes. In neither case, is it always a bad thing, but this is where context matters a great deal and separates good from bad. I'll use myself as an example. (I'm prob going to need a lot of caveats so I don't offend anyone..gonna be long) If I go to a sim that I don't know has dress code rules, but I am presented with them in some form upon landing, I will take my time to read them, follow them if I can (or desire to), or leave if I cannot (or do not want to). This is not a bad exclusion, there is likely a very good reason for why this place has those rules-whether or not I agree with them is not up for debate(to me, this is all from my own perspective, I don't intend to push my perspective on others). I can follow, or I can choose not to. (ftr, I never go places that I suspect have specific rules intentionally because I would find that to be rude of me..not that it matters, I just want to make that known, lol. Like a formal place, you won't see me there..I don't dress formally and I would be an idiot to think I could go to one and not dress the part ) If, however, I am excluded once I get there (with no forewarning) from activities or treated differently because I do not have the latest and greatest, don't really wear much makeup beyond whatever basic stuff comes on my very old GA skin, play dress up with my av (not a slight against folks who do, honestly), don't dress fancy, don't buy into latest fads, don't wear shoes, don't...insert whatever else..because someone or some group, thinks they are better than me (as a person or as an av...or group thereof)..that's a bad kind of exclusion. Your new(er/ish) stuff doesn't make you better, in appearance, word, or action. In this case, the context of being excluded matters. I don't care what people say about their inclusion methods in this instance, because the exclusion reason(s) are negative and therefore trump any positive reasons for whatever inclusive reason(s) they have for the place, group, club That's as clear as mud isn't it? Inclusion based on.....insert whatever you wish....is not inherently bad, it is only when the exclusion of others is done in a negative way that it becomes a bad thing. Like, I won't go to places for furries if I am not in my hamster (though truth be told, odds are good I won't go then either). Not because they make me feel bad for not being...furry enough..but because it would be rude of me. If, however I did go, and was judged because of my hamster and that it's not as nice, as pretty, as beautiful, as well liked..as... then yes, that's a slight against me, and your positive inclusion of other furries matters not an iota when you're being rude to me about my exclusion. You don't have to outright say why you're excluding, because, again, context. So how the exclusion is executed matters as much as how the inclusion is executed and both can become negative with the right, or wrong, context. I run into it all the time in sl actually, mostly because of my seriously serious dislike for shopping and fiddling with my av (that is also sometimes coupled with my inability to shop for the things I do like...which is not..typical things most like shopping for, it seems). My apparent lack of fashion sense, among other things, is often used as an exclusionary tool, which really just tells me those that are doing it are tools themselves, but that's neither here nor there, I guess. Someone who has more money, desire and time to fiddle with their av is not inherently a better, or worse, person than I. If they treat me badly because I don't, or I treat them badly because they do..we're both pretty *****ty people. (and I don't) I don't judge clubs or groups with membership fees, or exclusive rules, in and of itself, when it's done without intent to be a tool. When it's done to say "we're better than you", then yep..it's bad and those people should feel bad for being bad people. There have been many places like that, there are places like that that exist now. I don't think all of them are inherently bad places, or groups, but their reasons for being "exclusive" may very well be based on a "classist" point of view-and that DOES make it bad. Group join fees are a bit different sometimes in that A-they're often actually just a means for a group owner to make money (either for overhead or just...money, lol), B-they come with benefits(so you're actually just paying for something, not really exclusivity or "better" anything..just...something), C-those that ARE done from a "classist" point of view are doing us all a favor in telling us who to avoid. Even the prettiest people on the grid can have the ugliest hearts and minds NO amount of exclusivity in their activities will ever change that, you can't buy being a good human. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choobaloo Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 BTW, I was advised not to put the club name or the thread might get pulled. I was more interested in people's opinions than in advertising the place. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 You are free to make or attempt to join a club with absolutely redonkulous money and looks-based requirements that go way beyond the standard joining fee that a great many groups include. Equally, others are free to laugh at you for it. They are really not the same thing. The redonkulous money and looks-based requirements are what make the difference. That's the entire bloody point of them. If it's wrong to laugh at pretentiousness and self-aggrandisement, in a digital setting to boot, then I really don't wanna be right. It's funny and I can make condiment-based jokes about it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsSeren Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Orwar said: Well, you're still on my contact list, so you've done good! Having worked in the club business, I've had much too many DJs and hosts spamming me with group calls and chats - even when I've been the host standing next to them. On a good day, I dislike people in general; catch me on a bad day with some brain-dead spam-invite to some dull venue with a pop-monger at the helm, and there will be blood. Yay; me! Makes note to make extra cookies for you to enjoy and I know we don't talk a great deal then I has to admit off duty I'm an introvert and not always easy for me to start a conversation though have fan girled when met some of my fellow forums shopping or just random bump! So apologies if you add me as a friend and I'm quiet; it just me being well me! Edited October 23, 2019 by MrsSeren 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Macbain Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 I could try to convince people that their assumptions about those clubs, and the people who frequent them, are wrong but it's clear that minds are closed on this subject. I thought most of you were more accepting of people who are different, or have different priorities. I was wrong. That's a shame. Who are the snobs here? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Quote Definition of exclude. transitive verb. 1a : to prevent or restrict the entrance of. b : to bar from participation, consideration, or inclusion. 2 : to expel or bar especially from a place or position previously occupied. Exclude, exclusion, exclusive all look pretty negative. Sounds pretty snobbish to me. Quote snob noun a person with an exaggerated respect for high social position or wealth who seeks to associate with social superiors and dislikes people or activities regarded as lower-class. By definition those who exclude others for whatever reason are the snobs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Macbain Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said: Exclude, exclusion, exclusive all look pretty negative. Sounds pretty snobbish to me. By definition those who exclude others for whatever reason are the snobs. Yes, and the snobs here are excluding people who go to certain clubs based on baseless assumptions. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said: I could try to convince people that their assumptions about those clubs, and the people who frequent them, are wrong but it's clear that minds are closed on this subject. I thought most of you were more accepting of people who are different, or have different priorities. I was wrong. That's a shame. Who are the snobs here? You are honestly taking this far too seriously. A standard charge as a filter to find like-minded people isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about an apparently real place whose membership requirements are so insane that they are a) just inherently funny by nature of how ridiculous they are and b) clearly intended purely to make the clientele feel richer and prettier than the hoi polloi. Like I said, it's the difference between a paid-for dating site that helps reduce time wasters, and one that demands $$$, nekkid pics and your firstborn before they even let you past the homepage. This is just funny, partly because it's all digital and partly because, well, pomposity is amusing and really quite easy to skewer. And honestly, none of this should matter in the slightest to this establishment's clientele if their membership is working and successfully making them feel superior. Why would such a rich, beautiful and exclusive crowd care if a few of us are chuckling and doing plummy accents? As I said earlier, the beautiful people get to be a cut above and the Great Unwashed get a giggle. Win win. It's not snobby if it's open to everyone, and anybody can laugh at this if they want to. Even the club members... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said: Yes, and the snobs here are excluding people who go to certain clubs based on baseless assumptions. What are they being excluded from? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said: I could try to convince people that their assumptions about those clubs, and the people who frequent them, are wrong but it's clear that minds are closed on this subject. I thought most of you were more accepting of people who are different, or have different priorities. I was wrong. That's a shame. Who are the snobs here? If it helps, I make no assumptions about those clubs, or the people that go to them, until, or unless, they give me cause to. I would never assume someone who wants to visit them is a snob if they give me no real reason to. Like, (pardon me while I use you as an example, please don't be offended, I don't actually assume you do this-I just think you might be the least likely to be offended if I use you as an example, lol) if you treated me poorly because my av (and by association, I) wasn't "good enough" to get into those places, it would make me think you're behaving like a "classist" with no basis and acting as if you're a better person than I simply because your av is prettier. Just as if I treated you poorly because you are able and want to get into them, because you have a much prettier av, and I called you a snob for wanting to, also with no basis, I would be behaving like a knob too. Others' mileage obviously varies, but, I probably don't have the most popular opinion on things like this. I get called...things..a lot based on my av and the way I do (or do not in my case) fiddle with her. I do have some friends who are very much the opposite of me in how they fiddle with their avs. None of us presents ourselves, our avs, as either better or worse...just different, and we're all cool with that. They tell me I have the fashion sense of a dead fish, and I tell them their makeup is messed up or they don't match just to watch them freak out (okay maybe we're a bit weird, ignore that last bit) I think it's the whole "you're not good enough for me" that some might see as snobbery versus "you're not what I'm/we're looking for". Maybe it's the delivery. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I'm mostly curious about what the assessment entails. Are you judged by your looks, your fashion sense, your etiquette, your eloquence, or some other parameter? What is the 'theme' of the venue? I'll continue with the assumption that we're talking about a club. I don't think that the exclusivity in itself is alluring, and if that's the primary selling point then, well, my first suspicion would be that it is a trap to catch vain people and get a quick buck out of them. That's not to say that there may be venues which may be worth a considerable amount of money to gain entry to - running a venue can be quite costly, as well as a lot of work; most venues try to monetize one way or another, commonly through tip/donation jars or group fees. If you get a lifetime membership for a set amount, and never have to put up with staff begging for money, then I don't think it's a problematic concept. If the price is there because there are high standards on staff, DJs who have more than one go-to playlist in their repertoire, hosts who do more than just spam gestures, and the venue itself is built in a way that's visually appealing without being an FPS sink; then sure, monetize it appropriately for the experience on offer, and screen patrons to avoid filling your place with script-heavy jelly dolls, or people whose presence may be a disruption to the ambiance for whatever reason. There's also the question of traffic; an exclusive venue is by definition not as accessible as a regular venue. The 'most exclusive' venues that I've frequented didn't claim to have entertainment 24/7, but set times and days that they were open - if I were offered to join a club of some description, which has a concept that appeals to me, with a schedule which works with my own, then I may well be inclined to cough up the dough for the privilege of attending. How much I'd be willing to pay, well, it's up to what's on offer. Scratching together L$11,000 is not that difficult to me - should I be sorry that someone else may not have the means to do so? No; Second Life offers equity, not equality. Is it snobbish, to be willing to pay for something that you want? No, grow up. Is it in any way 'mean' to exclude people by certain parameters from your venue? No, grow up. No one is entitled to free entertainment; most venues live or die by the generosity of their patrons - most venues don't demand your generosity, but still need an income to stay afloat, leaving it up to you to decide whether you wish to contribute to the survival of the venues you frequent, and leaving it up to you whether the staff who work said venue deserve compensation for their work (and I'm not saying they always do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemeth Lysette Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 1:10 PM, janetosilio said: There’s a couple like this. One is a super secret cabal of creators that hang out together, smack talk other creators, etc, etc be shady-shades in general. Oh, Plurk! Yeah, I'm on there too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said: Yes, and the snobs here are excluding people who go to certain clubs based on baseless assumptions. Another word for excluding is ostracizing. Quote verb (used with object), os·tra·cized, os·tra·ciz·ing. to exclude, by general consent, from society, friendship, conversation, privileges, etc.: His friends ostracized him after his father's arrest. to banish (a person) from his or her native country; expatriate. (in ancient Greece) to banish (a citizen) temporarily by popular vote. If you really want to know more: http://socialpsychonline.com/2015/11/psychology-ostracism-feeling-excluded/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Macbain Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Selene, if it makes you feel better about yourself to pretend I don’t know the definitions of those words, knock yourself out. If nothing else, this thread has convinced me that it’s time to give up my trial membership in Second Life’s truly most exclusive and exclusionary club. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Beth...if you mean the Forum Regulars, PLEASE don't go! Can we all agree to disagree and let this one go now? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said: Selene, if it makes you feel better about yourself to pretend I don’t know the definitions of those words, knock yourself out. If nothing else, this thread has convinced me that it’s time to give up my trial membership in Second Life’s truly most exclusive and exclusionary club. Who said you didn't know the definitions? I sure didn't. And I sure am not pretending you don't know. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. You don't like the answer. That's not on me. Frankly, if you want to be a snob, it's not my problem. I made the choice decades ago to not be one even though I could have been. I made the choice because I saw how they treat "others" and I didn't want to have any part in it. I have no desire to "rub elbows" with people who look down on others for no other reason than to feel superior. No one human being is superior to another. Traits of a snob: Snobs typically make others uncomfortable by insisting on their specific set of rules, which may or may not be appropriate. These rules may be based on what brands you "must" wear, neighborhoods that are acceptable by their standards, or places that you should or shouldn't frequent. Snobs put others down by excluding them from events for arbitrary reasons, such as lack of money or social status. Snobs are often phony and try to make others think more highly of them than they deserve. When backed into a corner, a snob may turn into...well... instead of standing up for what is right, they are more likely to fight for whatever benefits them at the expense of others. Traits of a well-mannered person: Someone with good manners will do his or her best to make others comfortable. Even when practicing proper etiquette, it will be silent and often invisible with no attention called to the actions. A well-mannered person is more likely to cover for someone who doesn't know the etiquette rules than to call the person out for the infraction. Personally, I much prefer to be around well-mannered people than a bunch of snobs. If that offends you, that's your problem, not mine, to deal with or not. Whether it’s through wearing brand-name labels, pouring drinks from the most prized wine bottles, or just putting on the presumed airs of the upper class, people who engage in snobbery can make the rest of us doubt our own self-worth. If that's how you really want to make people feel, again, that is on you. Hopefully you are prepared to deal with the consequences of being exclusive. Edited October 24, 2019 by Selene Gregoire 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Just now, Lindal Kidd said: Beth...if you mean the Forum Regulars, PLEASE don't go! Can we all agree to disagree and let this one go now? She doesn't need to leave. I do. All I do is piss people off. That's what being honest and frank gets me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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