"That is not what I meant, at all": How to Connect Respectfully

[Scylla Rhiadra]

13 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

If I see you in a club and I am single and your profile shows nothing like a partenr or I am not interested then I may well im you and suggest we dance. If you dont like it and its unwelcome, sorry tough I had no way of knowing that before asking if you might like to dance. Its not about how you dress its about you being there , me liking what I saw and nothing saying I shouldn't

Kanry, no one here is suggesting that it's inappropriate to ask someone to dance. In fact, on the contrary, asking -- not taking someone's availability for granted because of how they dress -- is what this whole thread has been about.

If you are asking in a respectful manner, which I am sure you are, you are doing it exactly right. And thank you.

It's more difficult to comment on the specific case of your friend without more details, but if it as you report, she sounds like a major piece of work, and she'll get no defense from me, or I'd imagine anyone else posting here.

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Kanry, no one here is suggesting that it's inappropriate to ask someone to dance. In fact, on the contrary, asking -- not taking someone's availability for granted because of how they dress -- is what this whole thread has been about.

If you are asking in a respectful manner, which I am sure you are, you are doing it exactly right. And thank you.

It's more difficult to comment on the specific case of your friend without more details, but if it as you report, she sounds like a major piece of work, and she'll get no defense from me, or I'd imagine anyone else posting here.

But that is the problem you see, you talk about unsolicited advances, so does she. You mean one thing she means another. Yes she is a major piece of work and was complaining everyone now hates her and wont talk to her which is when I pointed out why are you talking to me I don't want to know

[Scylla Rhiadra]

30 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

If you're not, please provide one peer-reviewed scientific study that shows violent male children grow up to be more responsible and even-tempered, and are less prone to commit violent crime and beat their partners. 

Doubtless such an article will be entitled, "Well, Boys Will Be Boys, Right?"

I'd like to see the accompanying piece that studies the impact of being victimized by bullies who are permitted to do what they like on the emotional well-being and development of their victims.

Surely that matters, regardless of how beneficial thuggishness might be for their tormentors.

[KanryDrago]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Doubtless such an article will be entitled, "Well, Boys Will Be Boys, Right?"

I'd like to see the accompanying piece that studies the impact of being victimized by bullies who are permitted to do what they like on the emotional well-being and development of their victims.

Surely that matters, regardless of how beneficial thuggishness might be for their tormentors.

While it would be nice to wrap all our children in cotton wool and never let them hear an opinion to the contrary that they are a special snowflake do you really think that helps them when they go out in the real world. A place full of thugs and bullies, ranging from your manager to the cop that pulls you over?

I wouldnt argue a extremes should be moderated, however a certain amount of kids being kids should be allowed and once again its not boys being boys. Young girls are just as cruel. People need to be toughened to a certain extent else they join the workforce and end up in tears

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

But that is the problem you see, you talk about unsolicited advances, so does she. You mean one thing she means another. Yes she is a major piece of work and was complaining everyone now hates her and wont talk to her which is when I pointed out why are you talking to me I don't want to know

Well, the reason I am hesitant to say much without a lot more details is because the particular approach used, and the contexts in which it occurs, matter.

So, did he ask respectfully? Was there any way in which she might have read a physical threat in his approach? Is he in a position of authority over her, such that there is a power imbalance, and she might feel pressured by her position at work to say yes?

These might or might not be some of the factors one would want to consider. 

Again, I'm not defending or justifying her actions. She sounds pretty awful from what you say. But the details are important.

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, the reason I am hesitant to say much without a lot more details is because the particular approach used, and the contexts in which it occurs, matter.

So, did he ask respectfully? Was there any way in which she might have read a physical threat in his approach? Is he in a position of authority over her, such that there is a power imbalance, and she might feel pressured by her position at work to say yes?

These might or might not be some of the factors one would want to consider. 

Again, I'm not defending or justifying her actions. She sounds pretty awful from what you say. But the details are important.

No she was just of the opinion, I didnt want him to ask and he should have known it. He is a nice guy currently suspended without pay. Same level as her and most people including women think he is a nice guy whereas they think she is an arse

We have all made our views known to management and told her we no longer wish to work with her

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

While it would be nice to wrap all our children in cotton wool and never let them hear an opinion to the contrary that they are a special snowflake do you really think that helps them when they go out in the real world

So, they should get used to being beaten up as kids, so they can tolerate it better when they're assaulted as adults?

It's not being a "special snowflake" to not want to be bullied. It's wanting to be safe.

10 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Young girls are just as cruel.

Yep, they sure can be. I bet most of the women here could speak with more authority on that subject than you. And yes, that's no better than thuggish young boys.

Sorry, I don't buy your premise. There are ways of preparing people for the more difficult and rough parts of life that are better, more emotionally healthy, and ultimately more effective than allowing them to be traumatized as children.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, they should get used to being beaten up as kids, so they can tolerate it better when they're assaulted as adults?

It's not being a "special snowflake" to not want to be bullied. It's wanting to be safe.

Yep, they sure can. I bet most of the women here could speak with more authority on that subject than you. And yes, that's no better than thuggish young boys.

Sorry, I don't buy your premise. There are ways of preparing people for the more difficult and rough parts of life that are better, more emotionally healthy, and ultimately more effective than allowing them to be traumatized as children.

Where did I say traumatised I agreed extremes should be curbed, what I said was a certain amount of hurly burly between kids is to be expected and prepares them more than we see with the safe space crowd we are getting now where they try to have clapping banned as it might trigger someone. Pendulums swing both ways and it has swung much to far to the lets cotton wool people which is why we get the people at work now that burst into tears when they are told how crap they actually are at the job they were hired to do but are incompetent to perform

[Coffee Pancake]

.. and this is why you never argue with red pills.

[Orwar]

2 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

You're really suggesting children be allowed to beat and bully each other so the ones who survive their education come out better rounded?

   Am I really suggesting something that I have never said? No, I'm not, and you're not going to somehow convince me that I'm wrong by making strawmen out of what I actually say. Am I suggesting that young boys should be allowed to tumble with one another? Yes. Am I suggesting that unchecked violence and terror be allowed among children? Absolutely not, that would be absurd.

2 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

You're conflating physical exercise and sports with physical altercation. 

If you're not, please provide one peer-reviewed scientific study that shows violent male children grow up to be more responsible and even-tempered, and are less prone to commit violent crime and beat their partners. 

   No, I'm not. Here's the tip of the iceberg:

• https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/your-mom-was-wrong-horseplay-is-an-important-part-of-development.html
• https://www.ucy.ac.cy/nursery/documents/Agrio_Pexnidi_sta_Nipia.pdf
• https://www.apa.org/monitor/mar02/morefun
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283567/
• https://psychcentral.com/lib/6-benefits-of-roughhousing-for-kids/
• https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/growing-friendships/201506/do-boys-need-rough-and-tumble-play

   And a rough video summary for those who can't be bothered to read page up and down of psychological studies:

 

 

[Akane Nacht]

8 hours ago, Catrie said:

  It seems like people,on the forums, are coming to the same conclusion but from different directions.  I've tried to read what everyone has said, and people bring up a lot of good and valid points.  Since this issue can get so emotionally charged, and this IS text after all,I feel that some may have possibly read things not exactly as how they were originally intended.  We tend to add our own inflections and meanings to what others write, as we are putting our own experiences behind it. 

I think everyone can agree that harassing or assaulting someone is wrong. However, people still do it for various reasons, be it acts of war or simply " because they can".  Most of us come to Second Life to escape real life. There will always be bad people in this world. or at least, flawed people doing bad things.  We can't just tell everyone " stop doing bad stuff", because that will never work.  We can't also force them to be nice 24/7.  In fact, I'm pretty sure Charmed did an episode,in the '90s, with a plot similar to that, I believe. 

The best we can do is to individually treat people how we want to be treated.  Teach kids what common courtesy is. I still say "Please" and "Thank You" when asked a question or whatever.  Let me tell you,  I've received things like free chips and queso just by being polite for no other reason that because that's how I was taught. lol  Will this change the world?  Probably not on a global level, but it might change the small world around you.  Also, that was some REALLY good chips and queso.  yum yum. lol 

Good points. My mom always said, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.. why we want those flies I dunno but lets assume they are desirable.

I understand what the others on this thread are saying along the lines of "respect is key". My challenge is: define respect (and conversely, define disrespect), in a way that works on a multicultural scale, or even within variance in a single culture. Your solution is the most workable - be nice to people, approach them with good intent and hope for the best. This is entirely within our individual control. It may still run afoul of cultural norms for someone, so I'd add, forgive and move on when it doesn't work. No point trying to change other people's ways - they will change if or when they want to.

[ThorinII]

The video is titled "Why play-fighting can be good for children?".

In my opinion, there's a big difference between play-fighting (where everyone involved knows it's supposed to be all play and fun - and which is stopped when one party has enough), and actual fights or other physical attacks without that mutual consent. They're not even remotely in the same ballpark.

[Akane Nacht]

3 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

While it would be nice to wrap all our children in cotton wool and never let them hear an opinion to the contrary that they are a special snowflake do you really think that helps them when they go out in the real world. A place full of thugs and bullies, ranging from your manager to the cop that pulls you over?

I wouldnt argue a extremes should be moderated, however a certain amount of kids being kids should be allowed and once again its not boys being boys. Young girls are just as cruel. People need to be toughened to a certain extent else they join the workforce and end up in tears

I can tell you how this turns out. In my line of work we see young people in their early 20s, struggling with anxiety, depression and burnout. It's much harder to teach resilience at that age. It's kinda heartbreaking. 

[Catrie]

2 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Good points. My mom always said, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.. why we want those flies I dunno but lets assume they are desirable.

I understand what the others on this thread are saying along the lines of "respect is key". My challenge is: define respect (and conversely, define disrespect), in a way that works on a multicultural scale, or even within variance in a single culture. Your solution is the most workable - be nice to people, approach them with good intent and hope for the best. This is entirely within our individual control. It may still run afoul of cultural norms for someone, so I'd add, forgive and move on when it doesn't work. No point trying to change other people's ways - they will change if or when they want to. 

That's a good point.  I tend to not take what people say seriously,good or bad. 😛   I usually just forget about it and move on.  I have no power over what others say or think.  I can only control how I act. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Orwar said:

Am I suggesting that unchecked violence and terror be allowed among children? Absolutely not, that would be absurd.

Well, thank you. That's reassuring.

But whatever you may have meant, this is what you actually said:

12 hours ago, Orwar said:

boys who are allowed to act out their aggression and fight and play rough in their youth grow to become more responsible and tempered adults as they are aware of the limits.

In the context of our discussion, the fact that you meant "play-fighting" was not terribly evident.

Looking through these articles -- most of which specify not merely "play-fighting," but really aggressive behaviours like (and I quote) "tickling, chasing, and being bounced, swung, or lifted," I see the suggestion that "rough-and-tumble" play assists with socialization (including the establishment of limits), neurological development, and physical coordination. The only one of these that makes a direct link between a lack of rough-and-tumble play and later physical aggression is 1) about play between fathers and children rather than between children, 2) concerned largely with what it calls a "small but significant group of children" (emphasis added), and 3) exclusively concerned with the development of aggression in children from the ages of 2 to 6 -- hardly a longitudinal study of children becoming dangerous adults.

None of these studies argued, as you do, that a lack of rough-and-tumble play constituted "a contributing factor of violent crime with deadly outcome and an increase of young men physically assaulting their partners as the result of an argument."

And none of them suggested that feminism was responsible for stunting the emotional and moral development of an entire generation of young men by forcing them to play nice, again, as you do here:

12 hours ago, Orwar said:

And here, feminism has achieved more than anything else - there's now a zero tolerance for 'violence' in schools, and many of them will notify the law enforcement as soon as two boys get physical.

   ... Which is an interesting way of trying to make men less aggressive, as there's tons of data from behavioral sciences that suggest that boys who are allowed to act out their aggression and fight and play rough in their youth grow to become more responsible and tempered adults as they are aware of the limits.

 

As for this . . . this is just gratuitously insulting:

12 hours ago, Orwar said:

feminists generally don't care to actually read or understand the data or statistics

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra
Tone. Because I'm a little calmer now.

[Amina Sopwith]

I'm going to stop my son if he tries to punch, bite or kick another child, and anyone who doesn't like it can go into the naughty corner with him.

[BelindaN]

So are we any nearer a concensus?

What started out as an SL matter (as I read it), has crossed over into RL. Obviously interesting topic but there isn't a fix.

I've seen far worse interactions in RL than in SL. I have been bullied, and sexually harrassed at work, but they never have an easy fight, because my childhood taught me to confront such people and take the fight to them.

Sexual harrassment and innuendo was endemic where I worked, so to challenge it meant being labelled a troublemaker, so it was often shrugged off. This was in a business suit environment, so attire was pretty much irrelevant.

Bullying is different though and has to be confronted. The biggest fight I had was only a few years ago, when performance marking changed so ten percent of staff had to be marked improvement needed. Short version coming up....

I was told by my manager that my attitude was impacting staff morale across our Region, which was about six offices around thirty miles apart (which I rarely visited). When challenged he couldn't provide any evidence, other than his opinion was evidence enough. So this escalated slowly into a major disagreement. I met with his manager who simply closed ranks. I took it to grievance and appeal, but in each case they closed ranks, even though the guidance was clear that we had an evidence based process. They were all guys, and this is relevant to what happened next. Before taking this to employment tribunal, I contacted the grade above my managers manager, at head office in London. She listened. She invited me to a meeting. I spent the day with her, and guess what...... she fixed the problem, and quite a few backsides got kicked.

Had I not been OCD, with an eye for detail, and good with words, they would have prevailed. That took eighteen months, sometimes almost unbearable stress levels, but I had to stand and fight those bullies.

Attitudes like this won't change, at least not as quick as we would like.

And oh yes, after that, I got left alone!

 

 

[Mollymews]

18 hours ago, Orwar said:

And here, feminism has achieved more than anything else - there's now a zero tolerance for 'violence' in schools, and many of them will notify the law enforcement as soon as two boys get physical.

   ... Which is an interesting way of trying to make men less aggressive, as there's tons of data from behavioral sciences that suggest that boys who are allowed to act out their aggression and fight and play rough in their youth grow to become more responsible and tempered adults as they are aware of the limits. Boys these days don't, which is a contributing factor of violent crime with deadly outcome and an increase of young men physically assaulting their partners as the result of an argument.

this is nonsense.  The reason for zero tolerance for violence in schools has nothing to do with feminism, and everything to do with physical assault. Boys and girls getting physical and beating on other boys and girls at school

youthful physical aggression from boys and girls in schools is dealt with thru organised school sports. Rugby, football, basketball, wrestling, hockey, etc. After school then youth club: boxing, martial arts, etc

[Orwar]

7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

18 hours ago, Orwar said:

boys who are allowed to act out their aggression and fight and play rough in their youth grow to become more responsible and tempered adults as they are aware of the limits.

In the context of our discussion, the fact that you meant "play-fighting" was not terribly evident.

   It's literally the second next word after what you highlighted. 😐

[AyelaNewLife]

The last like page or so has only caused problems because people (intentionally or unintentionally) have tried to sweep everything from vicious assault and sexual harassment to perfectly innocent games like tag or bulldog under the same umbrella. 

Don't. Such a broad definition is effectively useless.

I don't think anyone has legitimately tried to claim that boys or men should be able to seriously injure or sexually assault/harass anyone else. But trying to conflate that with rough-play between children (mutually consensual by definition) is ludicrous. 

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   It's literally the second next word after what you highlighted. 😐

'Fight and play' does not mean the same thing as 'play-fight'.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, BelindaN said:

So are we any nearer a concensus?

What started out as an SL matter (as I read it), has crossed over into RL. Obviously interesting topic but there isn't a fix.

I've seen far worse interactions in RL than in SL. I have been bullied, and sexually harrassed at work, but they never have an easy fight, because my childhood taught me to confront such people and take the fight to them.

Sexual harrassment and innuendo was endemic where I worked, so to challenge it meant being labelled a troublemaker, so it was often shrugged off. This was in a business suit environment, so attire was pretty much irrelevant.

Bullying is different though and has to be confronted. The biggest fight I had was only a few years ago, when performance marking changed so ten percent of staff had to be marked improvement needed. Short version coming up....

I was told by my manager that my attitude was impacting staff morale across our Region, which was about six offices around thirty miles apart (which I rarely visited). When challenged he couldn't provide any evidence, other than his opinion was evidence enough. So this escalated slowly into a major disagreement. I met with his manager who simply closed ranks. I took it to grievance and appeal, but in each case they closed ranks, even though the guidance was clear that we had an evidence based process. They were all guys, and this is relevant to what happened next. Before taking this to employment tribunal, I contacted the grade above my managers manager, at head office in London. She listened. She invited me to a meeting. I spent the day with her, and guess what...... she fixed the problem, and quite a few backsides got kicked.

Had I not been OCD, with an eye for detail, and good with words, they would have prevailed. That took eighteen months, sometimes almost unbearable stress levels, but I had to stand and fight those bullies.

Attitudes like this won't change, at least not as quick as we would like.

And oh yes, after that, I got left alone!

 

 

Great story Belinda! Only you will know how much of a role gender played in this, but there is no question that it is big factor in certain fields and professions. Good for you, in any case!

Interestingly, in mine, there is a perception, which is at least somewhat borne out by my experience, that older, senior women, who should be providing support to younger women entering the field, are actually hindering it . . . possibly because they don't want anyone to think that they believe gender has played any role in their own entrance into it, and subsequent success.

With regard to your comment about crossover from SL to RL . . . although we do things very differently in SL than we do them in RL -- so "connecting" and hookups here are very different in lots of ways -- the essential social attitudes that underpin our particular approach will be the same in both spheres, I think. So, generally speaking, someone who comes into SL with sexist attitudes carried over from RL will undoubtedly express those sexist attitudes here as well. The form that that expression takes may often be very different, but the underlying problem is the same. So, it's kind of inevitable, and not unjustified, to see this conversation shifting back and forth between the two.

[ThorinII]

29 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

'Fight and play' does not mean the same thing as 'play-fight'.

This. ↑

 

Maybe it's because I had my share of bullying and aggression towards me as well but I'm strictly against all kinds of (real or perceived) violence in schools or elsewhere - except for supervised stuff like rugby, boxing or even Martial Arts during school time or in clubs.

Edited June 27, 2019 by ThorinII

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

This. ↑

 

Maybe it's because I had my share of bullying and aggression towards me as well but I'm strictly against all kinds of (real or perceived) violence in schools or elsewhere - except for supervised stuff like rugby, boxing or even Martial Arts during school time or in clubs.

I think we should give Orwar the benefit of the doubt, and accept his word that he meant "play-fighting" rather than "fighting." He's already suggested as much above.

All of the articles to which he links make it absolutely clear that "supervision" is a vital component of this kind of rough-and-tumble play. In fact, a couple of them focus on providing guidance into how to distinguish between consensual and fun "roughhousing," and actually bullying and fighting.

[Selene Gregoire]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think we should give Orwar the benefit of the doubt,

Sure. When it's returned in kind.