"That is not what I meant, at all": How to Connect Respectfully

[Akane Nacht]

1 hour ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

From my point of view, quota's itself are a form of gender discrimination. Let the government invest in informing, educating and motivating, but not enforcing in this particular field. 

Indeed. In my country there are no quotas of this sort, thank goodness. But there is a very active initiative to promote fair hiring. My company is a signatory to it, and we promote it to others. It makes good business sense to hire the best person for the job, whoever that person happens to be. 

As an aside, men here do earn more in some sectors, as they spend 2 yrs of their young adulthood in mandatory military service and some 30 more in reservist, and this is compensation for lost time in the workforce. I have have not heard of any women clamouring for mandatory service for females. I certainly wouldn't. It's hard work and it has risks even in peacetime.

I think things even out pretty well overall. 

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Indeed. In my country there are no quotas of this sort, thank goodness. But there is a very active initiative to promote fair hiring. My company is a signatory to it, and we promote it to others. It makes good business sense to hire the best person for the job, whoever that person happens to be. 

As an aside, men here do earn more in some sectors, as they spend 2 yrs of their young adulthood in mandatory military service and some 30 more in reservist, and this is compensation for lost time in the workforce. I have have not heard of any women clamouring for mandatory service for females. I certainly wouldn't. It's hard work and it has risks even in peacetime.

I think things even out pretty well overall. 

You are obviously a victim of being brainwashed by the "Patriarchy" I am sure someone will be along shortly to educate you that you are subjugated 

[Akane Nacht]

3 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

You are obviously a victim of being brainwashed by the "Patriarchy" I am sure someone will be along shortly to educate you that you are subjugated 

Oh I'm a lost cause. I used to wash my spouse's army uniforms and travel out to camp to meet him for dinner. And I liked it 😭

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Akane Nacht said:

Oh I'm a lost cause. I used to wash my spouse's army uniforms and travel out to camp to meet him for dinner. And I liked it 😭

If you wanted to do it then that shouldn't be a problem

If you were made to do it then that is a problem. 

Sounds to me like you did it because you wanted to

[Akane Nacht]

5 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Sounds to me like you did it because you wanted to

Absolutely. This is how men and women support each other, cos life is challenging enough without inventing reasons to squabble 😊

[Coffee Pancake]

Your kink is not my kink.

[Luna Bliss]

24 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

You are obviously a victim of being brainwashed by the "Patriarchy" I am sure someone will be along shortly to educate you that you are subjugated 

Feminism isn't about serving/not serving a man -- it's about having the ability to choose if one wants to serve them. So Akane is free to wash her husband's uniforms rather than forced to.
Patriarchy (a system where rigid hierarchical rules must be adhered to) prevents women from choosing what they prefer, and it also prescribes rules for men's behavior too, often damaging rules.

[Selene Gregoire]

54 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Its not a wild assumption at all. You came in and told a dutch woman that she must be mistaken about how things are in holland because it didn't fit your world view.

Some american's do seem to believe how america is, so the rest of the world must be. Now I have worked for american companies that have offices in Europe and I know one of the first thing the american management moan about is European labour laws and why can't they just fire people when ever they want, why do we get more than 10 days holiday etc....

So forgive me my "assumption" is based upon a certain amount of experience....your assumption that Zeta must be wrong seems to be based on "This is how things are in the states so they must be the same for you and you are just not realizing it". You were incredibly condescending to her

I didn't assume Zeta was wrong. I asked for more information so I could see what she was talking about. If that is condescending then so be it. As for believing the whole world is just like the US, if you knew me as well as you think you do you would know that I do not. 

Classic case of my words being twisted around to mean something they do not mean.

[KanryDrago]

2 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

How do you know it isn't as "rampant" in Nederland as in other countries? Got any links I can take a look at? I don't doubt that it may not be as prevalent as in some countries but I have the feeling it is worse than you believe. I'd love to see something that shows me otherwise. 

Your words in bold....they say only one thing YOU ARE WRONG

[Luna Bliss]

26 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

3 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

How do you know it isn't as "rampant" in Nederland as in other countries? Got any links I can take a look at? I don't doubt that it may not be as prevalent as in some countries but I have the feeling it is worse than you believe. I'd love to see something that shows me otherwise. 

Your words in bold....they say only one thing YOU ARE WRONG

Kanry, one person cannot speak for an entire country. And so I find nothing wrong in Selene's doubting that discrimination could be worse than Zeta has experienced or has knowledge of.  When trying to know the truth about anything it's best not to take what someone says as absolute truth but rather to note it and file the info away for future reference in determining what one believes. For example, with Zeta she seems intelligent so I give her opinion a great weight. She seems considerate -- not sure if that should give her opinion more weight but it does make me more willing to listen to her.  But she is only one person in the country and can't speak for all, nor has she claimed to.

I certainly wouldn't want one person in the U.S. to speak for the whole country, or for me.

[Amina Sopwith]

1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

You are obviously a victim of being brainwashed by the "Patriarchy" I am sure someone will be along shortly to educate you that you are subjugated 

You, apparently.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

You, apparently.

Well, someone's got to do it, right? Cuz Feminism.

I nominate Kanry; I'm too tired.

[Amina Sopwith]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, someone's got to do it, right? Cuz Feminism.

I nominate Kanry; I'm too tired.

I haven't even read the last few pages, been on a work deadline and looking after a toddler (yay, feminism). I will say, though, that nobody cares that Akane or anyone else did the family laundry. No, really, nobody cares. I'm just surprised that she enjoyed doing it, because I find it dull as the ditch is wet, personally. God, the bloody pegging and folding. Then again, Gor can really set all new lows for tedium. I've known slaves to spend literally hours alone in a sim waiting for someone to come along so they could para RP about pulling a pint. At least if you've got some smalls hanging out you can have the excitement of watching them dry.

But if she likes it, brilliant, she can come round and do mine. There's strawberry stains on the Iron Man T shirt, feck feck feck feck.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

There's strawberry stains on the Iron Man T shirt, feck feck feck feck.

Oh wow. There's Patriarchy for ya, right? Betcha Wonder Woman knows how to remove her own stains.

Anyway, we're with you all the way, Sister!

Solidarity! We shall overcome!

Edited June 28, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Beth Macbain]

Really sad to see that this thread has turned into several men (and a couple of women as well) trying to pat us girls on the head and get us to just behave. 

I love men. I mean, seriously, I freaking love men. 

I don't like men who try to explain to me how the world works because, obvs, their viewpoint is far more valid than a woman who lives and breaths being a woman every day. 

I don't live in Europe. I would never be so arrogant as to presume how things work in another country, especially when talking to someone who actually lives there.

The raging entitlement of some people in this thread to tell me how to live in my world is astonishing. Not a single one of us in this thread has attempted to belittle the experiences of the men here - the kilt-wearing or the crazy and awful female coworker. We understand that others have experienced things we haven't.

Well, in the case of the kilt-wearing and drunk grabby-handed females we do since we live with that sort of crap all day every day and not just when we wear one particular type of garment. 🙄

[Luna Bliss]

[Luna Bliss]

https://dutchreview.com/culture/living-in-the-netherlands/racism-in-the-netherlands/

[Amina Sopwith]

23 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh wow. There's Patriarchy for ya, right? Betcha Wonder Woman knows how to remove her own stains.

Dunno. I'll ask our resident expert.

KANRY????

[Luna Bliss]

[Luna Bliss]

https://www.hollandalumni.nl/medias/editor/files/gender-equality-in-the-netherlands.pdf

[Amina Sopwith]

As a small aside, I am not personally aware of any branch of feminism stating that feminism is all about denying the possibility of a woman being a total tw*tbadger, deliberately picking unnecessary squabbles with your husband or just being a general pillock for absolutely no good reason.

I would suggest that those who think it is are perhaps misinformed or misguided, for reasons I couldn't possibly claim to guess.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

41 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I will say, though, that nobody cares that Akane or anyone else did the family laundry. No, really, nobody cares.

This, of course, because Akane has made it clear that this is her choice.

So, just to bring this back full circle to the OP, it's again about respect, consent, and choice. And also equity.

And in the interests of gender equity, I think it's important that we make it absolutely clear that we're all ok with Kanry also choosing to do laundry.

Especially Amina's, because she sounds like she could use a bit of a break at the moment.

[Amina Sopwith]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This, of course, because Akane has made it clear that this is her choice.

Well, quite. Her husband was a conscript, and she washed his uniform and went out to see him on base. Why on earth wouldn't any normal person do that? Why would anyone imagine that someone would be outraged by it? Jeez, you people need to learn how to rebel. This is pitiful.

I don't know, maybe I should read the last page or two that I haven't bothered looking at yet. Have I missed something huge?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Well, quite. Her husband was a conscript, and she washed his uniform and went out to see him on base. Why on earth wouldn't any normal person do that? Why would anyone imagine that someone would be outraged by it? Jeez, you people need to learn how to rebel. This is pitiful.

"Ladies and gentlemen, we interrupt this show about challenging your fundamental gendered assumptions about the social order, in order to bring you an important message about household chores."

9 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I don't know, maybe I should read the last page or two that I haven't bothered looking at yet. Have I missed something huge?

Well, lots of stuff about quotas, about which I think I've said as much as I need to say. Some of the contributions are interesting though: check out what Ayela says, for instance.

Other than that, not so much.

Except occasional reminders that feminists want to ruin your life. (Well, DUH!)

[Amina Sopwith]

21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Except occasional reminders that feminists want to ruin your life. (Well, DUH!)

A thought has just occurred to me. Has there EVER been a time when feminism wasn't "going too far"?