"That is not what I meant, at all": How to Connect Respectfully

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Your meaning was clear, and you did not say anything wrong.

We are certainly agreed on this much.

10 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Some people have extreme anger issues.

Yes, some people do.

However, in mitigation, being triggered because of a traumatic experience to what others might see as an "extreme" reaction is pretty understandable. There is such a thing as PTSD, and the victims of sexual assault are most definitely liable to it. It's important to recognize that the response to any subject related to what has caused the trauma is often going to seem "over the top" to someone who has not experienced it, or who has managed it differently.

With respect, i don't feel that it's either helpful, or really very fair, to treat someone's response to a triggering event as though it were merely a matter of anger management. And I'm sure you'll agree if you think about it a bit?

ETA: What Ayela herself just said.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Except that I have observed a pattern of angry outbursts in other threads, often about very inconsequential "slights". As always, YMMV. 

[roseelvira]

 

NOW I CAN'T GET THAT SONG OUT  OF MY HEAD AND WILL BE SINGING IT ALL DAY ,,,,,, BRAAAAAAAA LOLOLOLOL

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is interesting because it implies, by analogy, that a woman's body is like the property of a house, and that to safeguard it, a woman must "lock it safely away" so that unauthorized people can't "steal" it.

And that's so interesting, of course, because it is how, for millennia, women's bodies have in fact been treated by Western culture. For example, it's only been in the last 30 or 40 years that the notion of spousal rape has been added to the statute books in many places (and it's still not universally recognized), because the assumption has always been that a marriage contract transfers or at least shares "ownership" of a married woman's body: she can't withhold consent because, well, it's no longer only her body, and the man already has all the authority to access it whenever he wants

I may be misreading the above, but it sounds like you are singly out the Western culture for this behavior. Not sure about some of the other Western worlds, but the US simply did life as their founders taught them -- and their founders most definitely were not of "Western culture".

While men have treated us like property, the "Western" worlds have actually come a long ways in this compared to some other areas of the world.  There truly are still areas of the world where just being alive as female constitutes consent to anything and everything - and in those parts of the world, it is mostly still considered normal.

Given the age of the US compared to the age of other so called 'civilized' countries, we have adopted more modern viewpoints rather quickly.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

 

[roseelvira]

 the Lenape or Delaware Indian women and their place in Indian life, but before going into some of the specifics of daily life, it should be pointed out that the role of women in Lenape life was entirely different from that of the European cultures. The Lenape are matrilineal which means that everything descends down from generation to generation through the female line. The children belong to the clan or group of the mother, and therefore, even if one was the son or daughter of a chief, they would not be a prince or princess as was the case with European royalty. The successor to the chieftaincy was the chief’s sister’s son, or the nearest male relative to the chief within the same clan. This gave the women a powerful voice in tribal matters, but in spite of this ‘voice,’ it was the tradition for women to not speak out at public gatherings such as councils. If a woman had a point to make she would have a male relative or her husband state her opinions for her.Unlike the women in the cultures of many of the Europeans who came to these shores, the Lenape wife was never considered as the property of the husband. Women’s roles among the Lenape were clearly defined: the woman had full charge of the home; in fact, she was considered the owner of the house. The woman took care of the food preparation and the man procured the game animals. The woman took care of planting and the garden and the man cleared the land for the gardens.

The Delaware Indian women had a reason for most of the things they did. Even with cooking, we think that the person’s mind when they are cooking has something to do with the health of the ones who eat the food. The cook must be in a good frame of mind during the food preparation, not angry, or ill, and have an inside prayer to the Creator that what she prepares will bring strength and happiness to the consumer of the food. Sewing likewise is not done when one is angry lest the wearer will feel unhappy when wearing it. They will feel the “makers” sensations.

Delaware women, especially when we cook outside such as when we camp out, we bend from our waist down to stir our pots. Usually a white woman will stoop down on her knees to attend her cooking pot. That is one of the differences that I see. Then too we old traditional people have a habit of pointing with our lips. Like you say, “Well, right over there,” and we point that direction with our lips. But you don’t point at people. And neither do you point at graves.

The children in a Lenape family were cared for by both parents, although some of the time the father was gone hunting or fishing as this was necessary for survival, it was not for sport as is usually the case these days. In the traditional families the children were spaced about three to four years apart, and the women usually nursed their children until they were about three years old.

In the Delaware tribe the women disciplined children in the old way. They didn’t really use any whips or any paddles or anything. They were taken to the creek, and a basket put over their head and water thrown over that basket. The Lenape said that there is a grandfather spirit in this water will correct all your bad habits, and this water will take away all these obstinate traits you might have. There is another way to correct children. You tell the child that, “Your conduct, your action, brings shame to me and all the people who are gone, you bring shame upon them.”

The woman had the freedom to do as she pleased, and she might ask her husband if he wanted to go to some certain place, but if he did not she would just take the children and go, such as to town or to a dance, (most of our dances do not require a partner). Some women also had a special man friend, a non-relative called by the term usually reserved for a female friend, and he served the purpose of a confidant. It was to him she would go with questions or problems she could not discuss with her husband or male relatives.

This account shows just a few of the many facets of the life of a woman among the Lenape people. Most of the older ways have about disappeared among the younger generations as they grow up among the non-Indians, and learn many of their ways in the schools, all too often overlooking the ways of their ancestors

 THE ABOVE FOUND ON THE DELAWARE TRIBE OF   INDIANS SITE    and was written byNora Thompson Dean        in case you were asking nope not   NORA ,,,,  

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

34 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I may be misreading the above, but it sounds like you are singly out the Western culture for this behavior. Not sure about some of the other Western worlds, but the US simply did life as their founders taught them -- and their founders most definitely were not of "Western culture".

While men have treated us like property, the "Western" worlds have actually come a long ways in this compared to some other areas of the world.  There truly are still areas of the world where just being alive as female constitutes consent to anything and everything - and in those parts of the world, it is mostly still considered normal.

Given the age of the US compared to the age of other so called 'civilized' countries, we have adopted more modern viewpoints rather quickly.

Am I singling out Western culture? Yes, but not for the reasons that you (and Marianne) imply.

I am specifying Western culture because it is Western culture, and the particular ways in which gender relations have developed in the West, to which I am referring. While it's true that the world is becoming increasingly "Westernized," it still is not the case that one can make blanket pronouncements about gender  on the basis of an analysis of Western culture that apply everywhere around the world. Some cultures, especially some indigenous ones, are matriarchal: they are necessarily different (although not necessarily better) cases. The situation in the Islamic world -- and there are actually a number of models here, because Islam is far from monolithic, is "different." So too, for instance, and despite surface appearances, are the cases of China and Japan.

So, I'm singling out the West mostly because I'm only talking about the West.

I am not singling it out, however, in the sense of arguing that it is the worst. It demonstrably is not. In fact, I'm very proud of all that has been accomplished for women's rights in the last century or more: I'd much rather, as a woman, be living in the West, than most other places in the world for that reason, if for no other. But it's equally important to recognize that the advances we've made here don't necessarily translate well into other cultural contexts, which have their own histories and power structures.

So, TL;DR -- Yes, I am specifying the West in my criticisms, but that doesn't mean that I'm suggesting that it's "the worst." Merely that my criticisms relate specifically to gender relations in the West.

[ThorinII]

So...

Well, I think I've read the entire thread now. And as someone prone to "open mouth,insert foot" occasionally, I will only say this: It happens way too often that men (it's mostly men) do not only view women as objects of desire, they're also treating them that way. No matter what the women wear: I even heard building workers wolf-whistling after some Muslim women - who were really fully (modestly?) dressed, including headscarf. And of course I yelled at these idiots to stop that. Also when I still worked, I often heard bosses tell their secretaries off: "you're here to be pretty, not to be smart, so stfu" 🤬

Same thing here in SL: Some people treat any female avatar, and ESPECIALLY those with a visible collar, like ready and available objects to be had (or used) at whim. Also, I've often seen that female avatars have been treated as less competent than male avatars. Example: Several years ago, I witnessed that a newbie first asked a female newbie helper a question, ogled her, complimented her necklace (which happened to be a collar) and then went to a male newbie helper with exactly the same question, only to get exactly the same answer as before.

So, from my point of view, respect to the person you see or speak to is not only NOT judging someone by their choice of clothing andeven worse, victim-blaming them, but rather to greet and treat them like someone of your own peer group. To help them when in need rather than abusing their vulnerability. And a lot more.

 

[AyelaNewLife]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think it's fascinating, and suggestive, that, nearly whenever this issue of assigning blame to a woman for what she chooses to wear arises, this is the analogy that is employed.

It is interesting because it implies, by analogy, that a woman's body is like the property of a house, and that to safeguard it, a woman must "lock it safely away" so that unauthorized people can't "steal" it.

There's also a vocal minority who claim that any kind of theft-prevention advice is victim-blaming, and no different to blaming the victim of a sexual assault. I don't know which one is the chicken and which one is the egg.

Equating the two is nonsense, of course. And frankly, it's highly offensive to claim that "don't leave your front door open when you leave the house" is even remotely equivalent to "she was asking for it because she wore that dress".

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, AyelaNewLife said:

And frankly, it's highly offensive to claim that "don't leave your front door open when you leave the house" is even remotely equivalent to "she was asking for it because she wore that dress".

YES!!

[roseelvira]

OK    hiding behind my pillows ,,,,,,, MEN and WOMEN  have a very different biological makeup  and chemistry.   That being said  and making no excuses for men  a good percentage of them model  what was taught to  them by  adult men,media, and  tradition, Where a woman can  control sexual urges   we have the mighty  chocolate candy bars and  ice cream ,men can brush  against plant and   get the desire ,,, without the thought  it is a nerological  response to sensations of touch and their hormones ,,, you could be wearing  old flannel P J S  and an  over sized robe  and ducky bedroom slippers and if a man is in the sexual desire mode no  matter  what you are wearing  they want  to get the relief and the high,

   If a woman choses to wear something  that makes her feel good about herself((((  remember  none of us ever really knows the pain of others inner scars from their lives and what ever darkness may have happened  do not judge ))))   let her  appreciate   her   value her and her sole . we are responsible for our own behavior .  if one feels tempted it is their choice  to refuse to par take , 

   basically  we all want the  same thing to be respected loved understood and hugged ,,,, hugs to you all  ....   peeking out

  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

Some people treat any female avatar, and ESPECIALLY those with a visible collar, like ready and available objects to be had (or used) at whim.

This I find exceptionally odd. I didn't address the issue of BDSM and the outward signs of being a Dom(me) or sub in the OP, but it adds an additional wrinkle.

Surely the point of a collar is to announce, publicly, that you are not available -- that you "belong" to someone else already?

In which case, those who think that a collar represents someone who is "looking" for it know just enough about BDSM to be offensive and show off their deeper ignorance.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, roseelvira said:

OK    hiding behind my pillows ,,,,,,, MEN and WOMEN  have a very different biological makeup  and chemistry.   That being said  and making no excuses for men  a good percentage of them model  what was taught to  them by  adult men,media, and  tradition, Where a woman can  control sexual urges   we have the mighty  chocolate candy bars and  ice cream ,men can brush  against plant and   get the desire ,,, without the thought  it is a nerological  response to sensations of touch and their hormones ,,, you could be wearing  old flannel P J S  and an  over sized robe  and ducky bedroom slippers and if a man is in the sexual desire mode no  matter  what you are wearing  they want  to get the relief and the high,

Oooh. Now we are entering into deep and dangerous waters. I'm not going to go there, except to say that generalizations about gender need to be very carefully thought through, because, first, they are always at least heavily modified by culture even where biology may have a role, and second, there are almost always likely to be more individual exceptions to the rule than examples of it.

3 minutes ago, roseelvira said:

If a woman choses to wear something  that makes her feel good about herself((((  remember  none of us ever really knows the pain of others inner scars from their lives and what ever darkness may have happened  do not judge ))))   let her  appreciate   her   value her and her sole . we are responsible for our own behavior .  if one feels tempted it is their choice  to refuse to par take , 

   basically  we all want the  same thing to be respected loved understood and hugged ,,,, hugs to you all  ....   peeking out

But this, yes, of course. Especially, sometimes, hugged, right? 🙂

[AyelaNewLife]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oooh. Now we are entering into deep and dangerous waters. I'm not going to go there, except to say that generalizations about gender need to be very carefully thought through, because, first, they are always at least heavily modified by culture even where biology may have a role, and second, there are almost always likely to be more individual exceptions to the rule than examples of it.

It's very easy to completely misrepresent the actual science behind gender/sex differences. Psychological differences between men and women almost always follows a "60:40" rule; eg, if you pick two random people and find out which one is more aggressive, it's the man only 60% of the time. That means that 2 out of 5 times that you run a little experiment like this, your result runs against the overall trend. In essence, most people are pretty average, and it's only at the extremes that any major difference between the sexes becomes extremely obvious.

[Akane Nacht]

On 6/20/2019 at 10:54 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

All of this is very subjective and tentative, and I'm not at all insisting that these are hard-and-fast categories. And, like any set of guidelines or rules, there are always going to be exceptions. In fact, I'm hoping that others will chime in with their own thoughts, observations, and different perceptions or approaches!

 

If this thread has not drifted too wide of the original post, I'll chime in!

Having been a roleplayer in SL for many years I, like many others, composed "rules of engagement" with my character. I was never content with them, and always ended up deleting them off my profile because no set of rules could be applied consistently to the various people I met, some of whom I'd impose stricter limits and some had practically none. Heck, sometimes it shifted according to my mood. 

So now, in roleplay and in SL generally, I wing it. People can approach me however they fancy to do so. Personally, I'd rather risk some unsavory conversations than build walls around myself.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

23 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Having been a roleplayer in SL for many years I, like many others, composed "rules of engagement" with my character. I was never content with them, and always ended up deleting them off my profile because no set of rules could be applied consistently to the various people I met, some of whom I'd impose stricter limits and some had practically none. Heck, sometimes it shifted according to my mood. 

So now, in roleplay and in SL generally, I wing it. People can approach me however they fancy to do so. Personally, I'd rather risk some unsavory conversations than build walls around myself.

Totally. Rigid "terms of engagement" are never going to be flexible enough to take into account different contexts and, of course, your own possibly changing moods and preferences.

Probably the only "term of engagement" that should always apply is "respect," which of course also implies "consent."

[Beth Macbain]

First off, I love this entire thread and respect anyone willing to engage in this kind of a difficult conversation.

I have been dealing in absolutes on this and I probably shouldn't have. I discounted common sense when it comes to locking doors, etc. Of course, we have to be sensible when it comes to protecting our property. Locking car doors, house doors, not leaving drinks or purses unattended, etc.

But as long as this is still happening...

• https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/canada-judge-says-sexual-assault-victim-may-have-been-flattered-by-the-incident
• https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2014/05/01/judge-says-sexually-assaulted-14-year-old-wasn-t-the-victim-she-claimed-to-be
• https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/06/nyregion/judge-john-russo-new-jersey.html
• https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/judge-who-asked-alleged-rape-victim-why-she-couldn-t-keep-her-knees-together-faces-disciplinary-a7229431.html
• https://www.mic.com/articles/141781/here-are-9-times-clothing-was-blamed-for-sexual-assault-rather-than-the-obvious

... then we almost have to speak in absolutes regarding this particular matter because a lot of men in positions of power are still blaming women when they are assaulted or raped. 

Rape and sexual assaults (and yes, we've veered waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay far away from @Scylla Rhiadra's original topic) are the most under-reported crimes, and you only have to look at those bullet points to know why. Women (and men, too) who report these crimes are almost always re-victimized by at least one cop, lawyer, or judge who questions the victim's part in the crime. 

To @AyelaNewLife's point about pick-up lines, I think for me the distinction is about what constitutes a pick-up line. I absolutely don't mind, and am even flattered, if someone approaches me respectfully and I think that gets to the heart, maybe, of Scylla's original post. Human beings approach and talk to each other, hit on each other, etc., but there is never an excuse, no matter what a woman is wearing or where she is, for being disrespectful, crude, vulgar, and just stupid. 

(Side note on pick-up lines, I absolutely hate when a man says some variation of "You look bored standing there all by yourself," or "You look so pretty when you smile. You should smile more." Yes, well, you'd look so handsome bent over with my stiletto shoved up your butt.")

In regards to the western world vs. everyone else... Because of my line of work, in the last few years I have learned a lot (too much?) about human trafficking in the US. There are still far, far, far too many people (men and women) who are sick and twisted and believe that another human being can be owned. If you think it's not happening in your city, or neighborhood, or even on your street, there is a really good chance you are wrong. So, so, so, so wrong. It is literally everywhere. Big cities, small towns, urban, suburban, rural... It's happening and it's a HUGE problem and it's horrifying. Because of what I know, what I've heard straight from the mouths of trafficking victims, I'm not so sure that the western world is any better than anywhere else. 

And, finally, yes, I will go there... @roseelvira, I will NOT insult men by giving any credence to the idea that men cannot control their sexual urges. The vast majority of men I've known in my 50 years have absolutely no problem not raping women. Any implication that, because men are men, they can't keep it in their pants is a cop-out and sad excuse. Are there biological differences between men and women? Yes, of course. Is one of those differences the inability to stop themselves from forcing sex on other people? Absolutely not. Respect men enough to hold them to the same standards we hold women to when it comes to control over their bodies. It is not any sort of uncontrollable biological imperative to have sex with a woman no matter what the cost or situation. 

We also know that rape and sexual assault is most often about power, not sexual urges, so there's that, too. And I think that the power thing is a large part of the reason men, going back to Scylla's original post, try to force compliments and pick-ups on women.

By not falling at their feet and rolling over for them, we're not giving them the power that they seek. Being denied is often seen as a challenge, and when that goes nowhere for them, out comes the "Your loss, b*tch," part.  Depending on my mood, I'm almost always polite when declining a gentleman's advances, but that politeness will fly right out the window if they don't accept that as soon as I say "Thanks, but I'm not interested." And god help them if they push the issue by insisting to know why. 🤬

[kiramanell]

On 6/20/2019 at 5:55 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, speaking as someone who was recently suspended from the forums for 24 hours for "abusive behaviour," I'm probably not the best qualified person to do that.

 

Ha! Just started reading this -- admittedly 'perilous' -- thread, but just wanted to say I find it very hard to believe you could have incurred any sort of forum penalty, as most everything I've read from you is often well-thought out, considerate, and very-to-the-pont.  But I guess stranger things have happened.

[Nextio]

You also have to consider location.  If you're hanging out at an adult sex place, then you really shouldn't be offended by people trying to look for sex.  If you're at a club or shopping area, then yes, it's very rude to try and look for some action on the spot.  There's a proper place and time for that and a shopping area isn't one of them.

[Beth Macbain]

[roseelvira]

2 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

And, finally, yes, I will go there... @roseelvira, I will NOT insult men by giving any credence to the idea that men cannot control their sexual urges. The vast majority of men I've known in my 50 years have absolutely no problem not raping women. Any implication that, because men are men, they can't keep it in their pants is a cop-out and sad excuse. Are there biological differences between men and women? Yes, of course. Is one of those differences the inability to stop themselves from forcing sex on other people? Absolutely not. Respect men enough to hold them to the same standards we hold women to when it comes to control over their bodies. It is not any sort of uncontrollable biological imperative to have sex with a woman no matter what the cost or situation. 

I  think things are getting lost in translation. I as i said am not making an excuse ,,,,,, i  was refering   respect women no matter what they wear and my writing about men had nothing to do with rape ,,,,   that the way some view women as objects  please reread  .... and that if at times men are in the mood  not matter how you look ,,,,, i had no ideal this thread referenced rape ,,, i thought it was about respecting women and i also said that each is responsible for their own individual choice 

 

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

 

[alienaisha]

Very nice thread.

 

Honestly, some people think I'm a man because of how sexy and cute my avatar is. But the truth is I'm just a bisexual girl and I can really appreciate a beautiful girl with big *****, you know? But everyone assumes I'm DTF and will flirt with me in my IMs (I usually ignore them, just don't respond at all. I don't care enough tbh haha). But, I don't know. A lot of men still think that girls dress up for them (and some do, and that's totally fine if that's what you wanna do) but many women just wanna be sexy for ourselves. It's a powerful thing to be able to just look and dress how you want. ❤️

[Beth Macbain]

4 hours ago, roseelvira said:

Where a woman can  control sexual urges   we have the mighty  chocolate candy bars and  ice cream ,men can brush  against plant and   get the desire ,,, without the thought  it is a nerological  response to sensations of touch and their hormones ,,, you could be wearing  old flannel P J S  and an  over sized robe  and ducky bedroom slippers and if a man is in the sexual desire mode no  matter  what you are wearing  they want  to get the relief and the high

This is the part I was referring to... men can control them as well. I can also control mine without chocolate and ice cream.

And sometimes if I'm wearing a skirt, a good stiff breeze can make me get the desire. 😋

And a man wearing old flannel PJs and a robe and... ZOMG DUCKY BEDROOMS SLIPPERS, TOO... is probably going to get me going, too. That would be freaking adorable and if it was a man I found attractive? 

[roseelvira]

ok   ,,,,i was quoting my old health teacher in high school ,,,,about men  their make up and the cactus plant . at least for me  i have to have an emotional connection and be in a committed  relationship  a while before i even think of the physical part . When you are in high school and  even your dad warns you guys want one thing ,    note   as i write this and watching reruns of two and a half men  every episode is about ...... so  media dose play a huge part of   how  people may view  the behavior  of men  and certain  delicate situations. I do agree that men  need to be responsible for their  behavior  in no way was i making  the boys will be boys ,,,, 

 Men and  women need to respect  the word no  and most importantly  respect each other   and be kind to each other .We are all here in rl or sl so we need to treasure each other as precious  ,wonderful souls here to help each other to live with more understand  compassion and love

[roseelvira]