Why am I crashing constantly

[DeepBlueJoy]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

But if somebody isn't having that happen then it means it isn't happening for everyone.

Which is why people need to send messages to the JIRA to replicate the problem.

And why people's systems need to be looked at.

That's just basic logic.

 

When cars are recalled, it's usually because only SOME people have actually experienced the failure in question.  We usually do NOT blame them for a manufacturer's defect. The recall on my particular car a number of years ago could have caused a serious accident, but I got 'lucky' even though the part was defective.  In real life, a defect can be real for an entire run of vehicles, but only some of them will fail.

Every computer deals with the grid slightly differently.  Some are more likely to fail for a variety of reasons.  Does this mean the person who is repeatedly crashing has intrinsic issues with their computer? Perhaps some do or it may simply be that their configuration doesn't play well with SL's imperfect, rapidly pushed out and very demanding code.  If you have a new car with a fabulous suspension on bad road, it will probably be more tolerant of rough patches than an older car with an older suspension... but the road is still the problem if it is full of holes.  If it breaks a suspension that was otherwise not prone to breakage, this doesn't mean the fault is with the person with the older car.   The road should be functional for most well maintained cars.  We aren't asking for the road to be suitable for a bamboo car going 80MPH.

If 80% of condoms failed in normal usage, no one would use them.  But in SL terms, I've experienced a 100% failure rate... on some days, I've had repeated crashes and disconnects. On most days I experience at least a couple.  This is way worse than the bad old days with integrated graphics, an overheating computer and slow DSL btw.

[LittleMe Jewell]

I have mentioned in some of the other TP related threads, but for me it is a Disconnect - grey screen with the IM/Quit option.  I have never 'crashed' from this TP problem.

Some have implied that is has something to do with the viewer version, yet we know that it is a server-side problem. So maybe just the fact that the specific viewer is EEP enabled and thus communicating with the server about new things and that sometimes causes the server issues?

I did my Firestorm upgrade exactly 4 weeks ago, yet I'm pretty sure I have only been experiencing this problem for a couple of weeks, maybe 3 weeks tops.  I'd have to search through my forum posts to get the exact date it started, but I'm pretty sure it has not been the entire 4 weeks that I've been on the upgraded viewer. 

However, due to the new EEP conversations that should be happening between viewer and server, I might drop back to the older version for a bit just to see if there is anything in that thought.

Edited April 7, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell

[DeepBlueJoy]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I have mentioned in some of the other TP related threads, but for me it is a Disconnect - grey screen with the IM/Quit option.  I have never 'crashed' from this TP problem.

Some have implied that is has something to do with the viewer version, yet we know that it is a server-side problem. So maybe just the fact that the specific viewer is EEP enabled and thus communicating with the server about new things and that sometimes causes the server issues?

I did my Firestorm upgrade exactly 4 weeks ago, yet I'm pretty sure I have only been experiencing this problem for a couple of weeks, maybe 3 weeks tops.  I'd have to search through my forum posts to get the exact date it started, but I'm pretty sure it has not been the entire 4 weeks that I've been on the upgraded viewer. 

However, due to the new EEP conversations that should be happening between viewer and server, I might drop back to the older version for a bit just to see if there is anything in that thought.

I think the problem is definitely global, but the newer version of firestorm (animesh) seemed to make things much worse, at least for me and others I know.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

The grey screen and "darn..." message seems to be associated with TP attempts. The other "viewer not responding" seems (in my recent experience) to be something to do with arriving somewhere successfully, but then trying to move or turn around before something has finished loading.  Either way, it's now very prevalent.

[sylvie Gossamer]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

But if somebody isn't having that happen then it means it isn't happening for everyone.

Which is why people need to send messages to the JIRA to replicate the problem.

And why people's systems need to be looked at.

That's just basic logic.

 

The problem with that solution in my experience is that most people on sl are not aware of this forum, and only the very technical are likely to go anywhere near the JIRA.

[Theresa Tennyson]

5 minutes ago, DeepBlueJoy said:

I think the problem is definitely global, but the newer version of firestorm (animesh) seemed to make things much worse, at least for me and others I know.

Interesting - your personal bugbear seems to be animesh. Nobody else posting here in these threads is blaming it. I know there are people in the Firestorm comments who say they had issues, but at least one of them said the (all but identical) animesh beta was "perfect" and the release version is "horrible."

Others are blaming EEP. The thing is, EEP isn't really the sort of thing that should cause connection issues.

Meanwhile, nobody else is saying anything about the change to the OS version running on the servers, or the fact that UDP messaging for assets is being phased out, or about "internal changes" that are being constantly made to the servers - mostly because they don't even realize it's happening. Just like people running Windows 10 often don't realize that it's constantly changing without their consent and without their even realizing it.

I don't see anyone saying that nothing is happening or that it's all on the end-users' side, but there's no evidence that something is obviously broken for everyone.

There is this sense in some people that if someone says that if problems are being caused even partially by things on their end that it's an attack on their intelligence and/or the size of their bodily organs. It isn't. As you point out, different computers react differently to the same conditions. It will be much easier to find out what's happening when the technical staff has as much information as possible about who it's happening to, where it's happening and what hardware and networks it's happening on.

[DeepBlueJoy]

17 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Interesting - your personal bugbear seems to be animesh. Nobody else posting here in these threads is blaming it. I know there are people in the Firestorm comments who say they had issues, but at least one of them said the (all but identical) animesh beta was "perfect" and the release version is "horrible."

Others are blaming EEP. The thing is, EEP isn't really the sort of thing that should cause connection issues.

Meanwhile, nobody else is saying anything about the change to the OS version running on the servers, or the fact that UDP messaging for assets is being phased out, or about "internal changes" that are being constantly made to the servers - mostly because they don't even realize it's happening. Just like people running Windows 10 often don't realize that it's constantly changing without their consent and without their even realizing it.

I don't see anyone saying that nothing is happening or that it's all on the end-users' side, but there's no evidence that something is obviously broken for everyone.

There is this sense in some people that if someone says that if problems are being caused even partially by things on their end that it's an attack on their intelligence and/or the size of their bodily organs. It isn't. As you point out, different computers react differently to the same conditions. It will be much easier to find out what's happening when the technical staff has as much information as possible about who it's happening to, where it's happening and what hardware and networks it's happening on.

I would never blame it all on others without looking at myself first.  My intelligence really isn't in question, but it does seem a mite illogical to suggest that thousands of people's computers have suddenly become defective.  It is a fact that lot of people are suddenly having problems, people who build stuff in SL and have more expertise and superior computer equipment/knowledge to mine. 

No matter how buggy a system or a piece of software is, there will nearly always be someone who has no problem running it.  This doesn't mean that other people aren't struggling through NO fault of their own.

FTR, I ran the Valley benchmark test that someone else recommended and it ran flawlessly at the max settings (it is kind of addictive and relaxing, even though it's not a 'game' per se), Anyway, if the stress point is my machine, it's only a stresspoint in SL. 

Though i have considerable experience with computers, I don't have the expertise (or frankly, the interest in developing it) to diagnose precisely what the problems with SL are for everyone.  I simply want it to work so I don't have to spend time I don't have futzing.  I only know what I've experienced, and what those around me are experiencing...  a lot of issues with crashing, particularly on TP. 

As those you spoke to seemed to indicate the FS beta animesh version was superior to the release version.  TP crash issues persist in spite of my not using either version, though the rapid repeato crash problem went away with the animesh release version. 

Many people I know crash on nearly every attempt to TP.  That is a serious pain in the butt.

[animats]

2 hours ago, DeepBlueJoy said:

always good to make sure there's nothing going on with my machine i don't want to be going on, even though I'm 99% certain there isn't, it seems like a useful tool to have.

DRAM fails over time. I had a machine where Firestorm crashed occasionally. I ran a memory diagnostic for hours, and it found two bad memory cells that were failing intermittently. That was all it took. Replaced the DRAM and Firestorm stopped crashing.

[Aishagain]

It seems that there are many and varied attitudes here.

Just for the record, Theresa, EEP changes are VERY possible causes of disconnects, since the mangled data that the viewer may receive on entering, either by direct crossing or TP, an EEP enabled region will most likely cause fatal errors in the loading process and subsequent disconnection or viewer shutdown (crash).

The increased load on viewers/computers produced by animesh is a less likely but still plausible cause for crashes, though less so for disconnects, since the data is not mangled.

I have encountered both and the issues with animesh enabled viewers suffered by some are quite real, though not as severe in most cases as those posted on this thread.

The change of simulator OS "may" also be a contributory factor, but the timing of the growth of issues and the release of EEP do tie in much better, as to some extent does the advent of animesh-enabling code in viewers.

I will be interested to see if the possible "fix" rolled out to the RC channels this past week mitigates the problems.  On present evidence TP between Main Server and the RC channels still seem bugged, but TPs between RC channel regions seem less toxic than they were!

Edited April 7, 2019 by Aishagain
context

[animats]

1 hour ago, DeepBlueJoy said:

FTR, I ran the Valley benchmark test that someone else recommended and it ran flawlessly at the max settings (it is kind of addictive and relaxing, even though it's not a 'game' per se), Anyway, if the stress point is my machine, it's only a stresspoint in SL.

The Valley pushes the CPU and GPU much harder than SL. Rarely can SL max out a modern GPU. The Valley does. That's what it's for. If The Valley runs flawlessly, your CPU and GPU should be able to run SL easily, and it's very unlikely that you have a hardware problem.

[MatsukoYamika]

im only experiencing every 20 minute "ding" and then greyed out followed by view im or quit message. I wish it would just get fixed and stop. I can't actively roleplay when i keep so called being logged out constantly. annoying as heck. like as i am writing this message i just crashed at 4:26pm est

[Whirly Fizzle]

1 minute ago, MatsukoYamika said:

im only experiencing every 20 minute "ding" and then greyed out followed by view im or quit message. I wish it would just get fixed and stop. I can't actively roleplay when i keep so called being logged out constantly. annoying as heck. like as i am writing this message i just crashed at 4:26pm est

Are you using Singularity viewer?
There is a bug with Singularity (release and alpha builds) that causes a disconnect roughly every 15 minutes.  The bug started when LL made changes to the servers a few weeks back now.
Up to date viewers were not affected but outdated viewers are - it's something to do with the event poll stuff that I only vaguely understand.

If you are using Singularity - make sure that you update to their most recent nightly build from https://virtual-nexus.xyz/down/

As far as I'm aware that viewer release on 4th April has a fix for the 15min disconnects.

[LittleMe Jewell]

10 hours ago, DeepBlueJoy said:

I think the problem is definitely global, but the newer version of firestorm (animesh) seemed to make things much worse, at least for me and others I know.

I did try dropping back to the older Firestorm version today and in 3 hours I had TP disconnects happen 2 out of 3 every 3 attempts - which is a far worse rate than I was experiencing them.  I went back to the newer release.

[Cindy Evanier]

I haven't updated to the new firestorm yet and I still had 2 really long tp crashes over the weekend (one of which I had to force the viewer to close) and a couple of other things like something I bought did not show up in my invent until after a relog.  Issues I have never had in years.

[MBeatrix]

17 hours ago, Aishagain said:

It seems that there are many and varied attitudes here.

Just for the record, Theresa, EEP changes are VERY possible causes of disconnects, since the mangled data that the viewer may receive on entering, either by direct crossing or TP, an EEP enabled region will most likely cause fatal errors in the loading process and subsequent disconnection or viewer shutdown (crash).

The increased load on viewers/computers produced by animesh is a less likely but still plausible cause for crashes, though less so for disconnects, since the data is not mangled.

I have encountered both and the issues with animesh enabled viewers suffered by some are quite real, though not as severe in most cases as those posted on this thread.

The change of simulator OS "may" also be a contributory factor, but the timing of the growth of issues and the release of EEP do tie in much better, as to some extent does the advent of animesh-enabling code in viewers.

I will be interested to see if the possible "fix" rolled out to the RC channels this past week mitigates the problems.  On present evidence TP between Main Server and the RC channels still seem bugged, but TPs between RC channel regions seem less toxic than they were!

Just a quick note, Aisha...

I can't say that EEP isn't the culprit, but I have to remind you that it had been on the RC Channel for quite some time and none of this was happening. Many Linden water sims are on the RC Channel and it hadn't been this bad on crossings as it became lately. Nevertheless, yesterday I did the Leeward Cruising Club Sunday cruise without any issues, on Firestorm, latest release. Are bad crossings related to the TP issue? I don't think they are, but what I think doesn't matter at all to solve the problem(s).

Something is wrong for sure, and it's up to the Lindens to figure out what it is. What is required from us is reporting as detailed as possible our experience, not guessing what may or may not be causing the issues.

[EDIT] Just one more thing for those having issues with Firestorm: I ALWAYS, ALWAYS perform clean installs, no matter if the Firestorm team says it's not needed, and never, ever had any problems with it but those that are due to some known programme bugs (not even all of them.)

Edited April 8, 2019 by MBeatrix
cruise map added & note

[Solar Legion]

At least someone's done their homework .....

[Fluf Fredriksson]

All the joys of forum troubleshooting in one thread.

A vague summary?

It is a recognised problem, LL have accepted it as a bug and are working on it. As Whirly said above, a potential fix has been rolled out to Magnum, Bluesteel and LeTigre servers with a call for users to test if this works for them only when tp'ng (not sim crossing) between those types of sim. Which is of course very difficult for the average user to test. Do you know a few random sims on those server channels you could test without ever accidentally tp'ng to a region that isn't on those channels? I don't. So bug fixing seems to have stalled, and nobody seems to be testing if the new fix works or not.

When it comes to SL, correlation doesn't always equal cause. DeepBlueJoy for example may have upgraded to an animesh viewer at around the same time the new bug became a problem (around 20th March). Viewer crashes (white screens and crash to desktop), are almost certainly not related to the known bug LL is working on. That seems more likely to be at the user end. The bug also seems to come and go. It's possible to have a glitch free night, then constant disconnects the next day.

Allegedly, turning off the sky (ctrl+alt+shift+6) helps cure or reduce the problem for a lot of users, but I don't know if that's still true since the partial bug fix rolled out to 3 kinds of server only. At the moment we have an SL grid running "fixed" and "unfixed" server code, and I haven't seen anyone yet figure out what effect that is actually having on Windlight capable viewers (with or without the sky turned on).

I've given up and resorted to using CoolVL, which I'd hesitate to recommend to anyone. If you remember the old v1 viewers you may get a buzz of nostalgia, but the developer has some quirky ideas on what to implement (or not) in the viewer. Examples: the minimap is almost useless, touch events are "quirky", it's slower to load assets than v2 viewers but it does get there eventually, and it might take you a day to figure out how to get a chat bar in the local chat box. But at the moment it does seem to disconnect less than WL enabled viewers.

Even with all the fun of new LL recognised sim/TP bugs, it's still worth checking your system isn't contributing to the problem. Amongst other things to check: Is your router / computer using fast reliable DNS servers? If you have an ADSL filter, is it starting to burn out? Is your router itself stable? (difficult to test that one!) Is it worth asking your ISP/Phone provider to check the line for noise? At the moment though, you can probably assume that even if all those sorts of sources of disconnects are fine and working as well as they ever did .. you will probably still get some SL disconnects.

But for now we wait to see if LL rolls out the theoretical bug fix it has on some servers to all the other servers, at which point most users will know if it actually fixed anything or not. Then the shouting may commence again.

[MBeatrix]

34 minutes ago, Fluf Fredriksson said:

[...]

Do you know a few random sims on those server channels you could test without ever accidentally tp'ng to a region that isn't on those channels? I don't. So bug fixing seems to have stalled, and nobody seems to be testing if the new fix works or not.

[...]

Here are just a few:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Cervera/123/118/41
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Weiland/116/116/40
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Kolchak/122/93/35
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Makarov/116/155/36
(these are all Magnum regions)

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Warrumbungles/204/114/30
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/West Haven/128/128/27
(LeTigre regions)

[EDIT] You better be flying when trying the first group because they are water regions.

Edited April 8, 2019 by MBeatrix
note added

[LittleMe Jewell]

50 minutes ago, Fluf Fredriksson said:

It is a recognised problem, LL have accepted it as a bug and are working on it. As Whirly said above, a potential fix has been rolled out to Magnum, Bluesteel and LeTigre servers with a call for users to test if this works for them only when tp'ng (not sim crossing) between those types of sim. Which is of course very difficult for the average user to test. Do you know a few random sims on those server channels you could test without ever accidentally tp'ng to a region that isn't on those channels? I don't. So bug fixing seems to have stalled, and nobody seems to be testing if the new fix works or not.

I have reported details to Whirly on disconnect issues with a few TPs to/from the RC regions - I can't update the JIRA myself.   Thus the code pushed to RC has not fixed this issue.  

 

[Fluf Fredriksson]

46 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I have reported details to Whirly on disconnect issues with a few TPs to/from the RC regions - I can't update the JIRA myself.   Thus the code pushed to RC has not fixed this issue.  

 

I have news! I can't comment on the JIRA bug either, and apparently it's because it's been marked as "Resolved" ..? Which I'm hoping is some kind of mistake!? Because you're right, it doesn't seem to be resolved.

[MBeatrix]

41 minutes ago, Fluf Fredriksson said:

I have news! I can't comment on the JIRA bug either, and apparently it's because it's been marked as "Resolved" ..? Which I'm hoping is some kind of mistake!? Because you're right, it doesn't seem to be resolved.

Report to Whirly, as Jewell and I did. Yes, for some reason they closed the JIRA shortly after more people started complaining.

[Wallace Wirefly]

1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I have reported details to Whirly on disconnect issues with a few TPs to/from the RC regions - I can't update the JIRA myself.   Thus the code pushed to RC has not fixed this issue.  

 

So it seems the issue continues? or is it resolved? Some how I think the focus should be on the operation of the "Cache" file system. Since this operation varies with everyone's own system. Does adding animesh along with EEP create more issues than one realizes. How is it "cached"? I know when caehe was first looked at (2007 time frame) there was much discussion about VFS and fragmentation. Would this explain why there is random occurrences? How is the "cache" retrieved? How is it stored on each persons system? I am not a code person but over the years I have seen some pretty bad fragmentation on my HDD in past. My new system is all SDD how well does cache work on SDD? So lets hope the issue isn't buried and lets hope the coders can look at whether "new" innovations are really a benefit to the SL grid before adding. Maybe have a better input from those that use the  SL grid for many years. I don't remember having a forum on whether Animesh was something the grid wanted or needed? Again what has it brought to the table that has IMPROVED the grid? Not sold more stuff but improved the overall performance, ease of use. Allowed users with less powerful systems to enjoy the grid as a lot of those with do. Same for EEP. So lets learn from this and keep SL grid going. It DOES have a LOT to offer never forget  those who have worked to keep it that way and hopefully bring more in who won't get frustrated over fancy stuff or "virtual" reality that isn't going to happen.

[Aishagain]

To MBeatrix:

Yes the final update to EEP was indeed very synchronous with the rise in disconnect/crash rate, but as you say, some previous versions of the EEP code were on the RC channels some two or three weeks previous.  Indeed I have little doubt that EEP is possibly not the prime culprit but some of the changes needed to accommodate the new server code "might" be.

That the changes to the sky Windlight was a major factor in my mind was that I suffered several disconnects while gliding and crossing sim boundaries.  I has my viewer set up to accept the region windlights, my partner did NOT ( a legacy of much SL sailing) and did not crash or disconnect once during our flights.

We both suffer occasional TP disconnects and that does not appear to be connected to EEP changes.

As for my network, modem and computer: all have been checked out both by myself using the few tools at my disposal, and do not, I think, contribute to this issue.

So far as the "resolution" of this issue according to the LL JIRA, I have not received a notification of that yet but it would be par for the course for certain areas of LL to limit discussion of a problem that they want to "go away".  Perhaps we will see if the "fix" is promoted to Main Server this week.

 

ETA: I just checked the JIRA and it is NOT resolved, status is still accepted and to me at least is open. BUG-226577 - TPs (Teleports) causing Grid Disconnects and grey screen QUITS

Edited April 8, 2019 by Aishagain
more information.

[MBeatrix]

43 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

ETA: I just checked the JIRA and it is NOT resolved, status is still accepted and to me at least is open. BUG-226577 - TPs (Teleports) causing Grid Disconnects and grey screen QUITS

That is very weird. To me it shows

Created: 24/Mar/19 4:01 PM

Updated: 08/Apr/19 5:00 PM
Resolved: 27/Mar/19 2:28 PM

 

And why can't I add a comment?

 

[EDIT] Doh! I just checked "Transitions" and it shows as accepted alright.

Edited April 8, 2019 by MBeatrix
correction

[LittleMe Jewell]

22 minutes ago, MBeatrix said:

That is very weird. To me it shows

Created: 24/Mar/19 4:01 PM

Updated: 08/Apr/19 5:00 PM
Resolved: 27/Mar/19 2:28 PM

 

And why can't I add a comment?

The Resolution is that it was 'Accepted'.  My bet is that this triggers an internal bug that is then assigned and worked.  Since the Status is 'Accepted' rather than Closed, comments can still be added, thus a more recent Updated date.

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell