copying instant messages and sharing them

[pghreaper Wopat]

  what if any are the rules about copying someones messages and sharing them ???

and does that go for private, or both private and in local(public)

Edited March 20, 2019 by pghreaper Wopat

[Rolig Loon]

To quote the Community Standards ( included by reference in the TOS ) :

Disclosure

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed. Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

That refers to ALL sharing of conversations in SL.  It cannot limit what may be shared outside of SL, although your personal code of ethics should be consulted.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Rolig Loon

[Lindal Kidd]

Sonia,

No.  This forum is a public discussion area.  We all know that anything we say here can be seen by anyone.  The ToS restriction clearly doesn't apply.  (Well, except that we can't share personal information we happen to know about others, without their permission.)  But anyone can quote anything someone else says here.

Let's discuss what LL means by "remote monitoring".

If I am talking to someone in local chat, I know that anyone who's closer than 20 meters can hear what I say (more exactly, see what I type).  Nobody beyond that distance can hear me.  So, I have an "expectation of privacy" except for people in that 20 meter circle.

Now, if someone that I chatted with logs my chat, and then shares it with someone who was not present, and they do that without my permission, they have violated that expectation of privacy...and violated the ToS.  Logging and sharing chat is a form of "remote monitoring".

Devices can monitor local chat, and relay it to someone who is not present.  This too violates ToS, and is the most obvious form of "remote monitoring".

IMs are are like phone calls.  You are only communicating with the person (or persons, in a conference call IM).  You have the expectation that nobody else is privy to your conversation.  If someone copies your IM conversation and provides it to someone else without your permission, that is also a ToS violation.

It's really not that hard.

[LittleMe Jewell]

23 minutes ago, Tera Jules said:

You are all wrong because it says in the TOS  that  for " Protection" and  reporting to Linden Labs" copy pasteing is allowed,  though what they term " protection" is unclear   i have read the TOS  and it states that haveing that you copy paste conversations on your profile informing everyone that you do so before they message you weather they read the message on your profile or not is the same as not reading TOS  it still counts as being read and allows copy/pasteing and shareing  to be done.

It makes no difference what anyone puts in their profile. 

Copying IMs and pasting them into anything in SL except an AR or Support ticket is against the TOS.

PERIOD.  DOUBLE-STOP.

Edited February 12, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Lillith Hapmouche]

1 hour ago, Tera Jules said:

No it's not it's to legally inform you that they do so and even if not read it is like TOS  being ignored and clicked ti get on with the game just because your uninformed or ignorant doesnt make it illegal or wrong

Lul, no.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 minute ago, Tera Jules said:

You are all wrong

ehm... no
Users never, NEVER, can change TOS. Those written statements in profiles are nothing than wasting space.

[Coffee Pancake]

Don't autolock old threads, they still have value .... /s

🙄

[Rowan Amore]

8 hours ago, Tera Jules said:

No it's not it's to legally inform you that they do so and even if not read it is like TOS  being ignored and clicked ti get on with the game just because your uninformed or ignorant doesnt make it illegal or wrong

Ignorance of the law is never an excuse.  No where does it say anyone has to READ your profile.  Therefore, even if it were allowed and those moronic statements were legal, it still would not be INFORMED CONSENT.  

However, I do love when I read that in someone's profile as it tells me who to avoid.  I prefer intelligent people.

You would be one to avoid.

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Tera Jules said:

In part you are correct, no where does it say your profile has to be read,in that you are right , but it does say you can copy / paste for protection ( which i take to mean to dispute lies told about you/slander, and i have copy pasted a few times to prove what the other person said and that they were lying) but community guidlines does say if it is in your profile that you copy paste conversations it is the same as T.O.S  i forget the exact wording  but words to that effect,which means weather or not it is read it is allowed

No.  The only times you can use chat logs is WITH Linden Lab.  Community Guidelines does not say that anything pertaining to this in your profile is the same as ToS.  

Please get your information correct.  From Community Standards

Disclosure

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed. Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

Your choice to NOT read the ToS in no way releases you from following it.

[Coffee Pancake]

13 minutes ago, Tera Jules said:

In part you are correct, no where does it say your profile has to be read,in that you are right , but it does say you can copy / paste for protection ( which i take to mean to dispute lies told about you/slander, and i have copy pasted a few times to prove what the other person said and that they were lying) but community guidlines does say if it is in your profile that you copy paste conversations it is the same as T.O.S  i forget the exact wording  but words to that effect,which means weather or not it is read it is allowed

 

10 minutes ago, Tera Jules said:

informed consent is given in writeing as terms of service, where you argree to abide by the rules even if you dont read them,so in this case even if you dont read it if it is on the persons profile as it is on mine, and you message me ingame, you are giveing consent by messageing me.

That is not how that works.

That's not how any of that works.

[Rowan Amore]

@Tera JulesYou're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, Tera Jules said:

YES  thats exactly what i said, even when you dont read it you still have to do it. or allow it.

from T.O.S PART 6

6. CONDUCT BY USERS OF THE SERVICE

You agree to abide by certain rules of conduct, including any applicable community standards for the portion of the Service you are using) and other rules prohibiting illegal and other practices that Linden Lab deems harmful.

You are solely responsible for your interaction with other users of the Service, whether online or offline. We are not responsible or liable for the conduct or content of any user. We reserve the right, but not the obligation, to monitor or become involved in disputes between you and other users.

Exercise common sense and your best judgment in your interactions with others (e.g. when you submit any personal or other information) and in all of your other online activities.

THEN it goes on to list what you cant do

i) Post, display, or transmit Content that violates any law or the rights of any third party, it is not against the law to post or copy/paste chat so that one does not count,

(ii) Impersonate any person or entity without their consent, or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation, or if you are an adult, impersonate a minor for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service; has nothing to do with copy/ppasteing

(iii) Stalk, harass, or engage in any sexual, suggestive, lewd, lascivious, or otherwise inappropriate conduct with minors on the Service;

everyone argrees with that

the rest go on to list not to interupt other peoples online services or stop them playing in any way

 

Which applies to the ToS and community standards.  It does NOT apply to what some a.s s.hat puts in their profile.

 

[panterapolnocy]

13 minutes ago, Tera Jules said:

YES  thats exactly what i said, even when you dont read it you still have to do it. or allow it.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Residents'_privacy_rights

Quote

Disclosing private Second Life conversations

Sharing or posting a conversation inworld or in the Second Life forums without consent of all involved Residents is a violation of the Terms of Service.

NOTE: This does not include posting of chat to social media sites or other websites. Posting such logs on web pages, emailing them, or printing them out and posting them on utility poles in the "real world" -- are all actions beyond the scope of the Second Life Terms of Service. ; while that might be illegal, but those laws must be enforced by the proper law enforcement agencies.

"Conversation" means text that originally came from Second Life chat or Second Life instant messages. If it's totally unattributed, then it isn't considered disclosure. Additionally, Residents are not punished for sharing or posting a comment such as "Bob Resident said, 'You're the greatest!'"

You cannot copy/paste attributed chat on Second Life forums or inworld. End of story. It does not matter what a person would put in their profile - that cannot overwrite what the Lab established.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Tera Jules said:

well then i guess you wont be messageing me in the game ,good enough said

Oh no .. now everyone knows they can message you, assume that you're sharing conversations and then report you for it.

Good Luck !

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Tera Jules said:

i believe you could type it out yourself, which is another way to get around copy/pasteing, you can say that you typed it out yourself

 

Except for such Updated Terms, this Agreement may not be modified except by mutual written agreement between you and Linden Lab that is signed by hand (not electronically) by duly authorized representatives of both parties and expressly references amendment of this Agreement. You acknowledge that no other written, oral or electronic communications will serve to modify or supplement this Agreement, and you agree not to make any claims inconsistent with this understanding or in reliance on communications not part of this Agreement.

 

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Oh no .. now everyone knows they can message you, assume that you're sharing conversations and then report you for it.

Good Luck !

Well, I'd already assumed I wasn't going to IM her from reading this in her profile.  The all caps makes it more official?

Real World Biography

I COPY PASTE CONVERSATION FOR SELF PROTECTION IF NEEDED AS PROOF OF ACCUSATIONS SAID..LL TOS SAYS AS LONG AS IT IS IN MY PROFILE EVEN IF UNREAD IT IS ALLOWED,IT IS JUST LIKE TOS WEATHER YOU READ IT OR NOT IT COUNTS...I WAS A SALES MANAGER IN RL

[VenKellie]

On 3/20/2019 at 5:59 PM, Rolig Loon said:

To quote the Community Standards ( included by reference in the TOS ) :

Disclosure

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed. Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

That refers to ALL sharing of conversations in SL.  It cannot limit what may be shared outside of SL, although your personal code of ethics should be consulted.

so if someone IM's me a joke i can share it as long as it doesnt have any real life info?
[10:28] Ven the Meerkat (venkellie): a human and a tiny walks into a pub, the human says "cool pub" and the tiny looks at the human and says "pub? thought this was a nightclub"
Sorry lame joke, just typed it out here as a point to my question. So if someone IM's me a joke like that can i share it with others without the permission of the one who sent me the joke?

[Rolig Loon]

I didn't make the rule. I didn't even claim that I agreed with it necessarily.  All I did was answer the question. 

I have rarely found a rule that made sense in all circumstances. That's why most systems give the people who are supposed to enforce rules a bit of leeway about when it's OK to look the other way.  In this case, Linden Lab wrote the TOS and the Community Standards with usual legal ambiguity, as in "These Standards set out actions that could result in restrictions on your access to the Service, up to and including account termination."  -- which means that they might not, too.  Almost certainly not, if nobody complains.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, VenKellie said:

so if someone IM's me a joke i can share it as long as it doesnt have any real life info?
[10:28] Ven the Meerkat (venkellie): a human and a tiny walks into a pub, the human says "cool pub" and the tiny looks at the human and says "pub? thought this was a nightclub"
Sorry lame joke, just typed it out here as a point to my question. So if someone IM's me a joke like that can i share it with others without the permission of the one who sent me the joke?

Nit picking and hunting for edge cases isn't helpful. If you copy paste chat from anyone in SL, anywhere in SL, ever and get reported for it .. The Linden who punts your account into the sin-bin won't care about context.

[Ethan Paslong]

34 minutes ago, SoniaVileva said:

I will read "the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited."  where conversations here refer to conversations that contain participant's personal information. Otherwise, it does not make sense to have local chat.

I also think the word "remote' is redundant. Or I will rewrite it like this: "collecting and sharing participant's personal information without participant's consents are prohibited."

But I am not a lawyer! LOL Someone from LL should answer this question.

it has nothing to do with personal info in chat or not, you'r simply not allowed to use anything that is said without permission in SL.

[Rowan Amore]

6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Don't autolock old threads, they still have value .... /s

🙄

For comedic value if nothing else.

[Doris Johnsky]

On 4/6/2019 at 12:46 PM, VenKellie said:

so if someone IM's me a joke i can share it as long as it doesnt have any real life info?
[10:28] Ven the Meerkat (venkellie): a human and a tiny walks into a pub, the human says "cool pub" and the tiny looks at the human and says "pub? thought this was a nightclub"
Sorry lame joke, just typed it out here as a point to my question. So if someone IM's me a joke like that can i share it with others without the permission of the one who sent me the joke?

I think if you simply retell the joke there's no issue.  If you copy and paste the IM including name it becomes sketchy. 

I believe the rule applies to passing information told to you that they believed should remain secret.  

[Rolig Loon]

14 minutes ago, Doris Johnsky said:

I believe the rule applies to passing information told to you that they believed should remain secret.  

That's where things get dicey.  Guessing what's in someone else's mind is a risky business, so you may assume that it's OK to pass along something that you copy/paste from chat because it's not "secret".  The only way to be sure that it's not is to ask.  In general, though, you're right that 

17 minutes ago, Doris Johnsky said:

I think if you simply retell the joke there's no issue.

If that's all you say, you haven't identified it as something that another person said, so you can probably get past the TOS restriction.  Still, strictly speaking, that portion of the TOS is there to protect both privacy and intellectual property.  When in doubt, it's probably best to quote someone only when you have permission.  

[Doris Johnsky]

On 2/13/2021 at 8:04 PM, Rolig Loon said:

That's where things get dicey.  Guessing what's in someone else's mind is a risky business, so you may assume that it's OK to pass along something that you copy/paste from chat because it's not "secret".  The only way to be sure that it's not is to ask.  In general, though, you're right that 

If that's all you say, you haven't identified it as something that another person said, so you can probably get past the TOS restriction.  Still, strictly speaking, that portion of the TOS is there to protect both privacy and intellectual property.  When in doubt, it's probably best to quote someone only when you have permission.  

I've never repeated anything in IM unless the person who told me said I could. And even then if it was about someone else I won't.

I got in heat with management because someone told them something I said in an IM. It wasn't derogatory, just critical.  Ended up losing a job over it.  

 

[Kyrie Deka]

On 4/16/2019 at 1:36 PM, Ethan Paslong said:

you'r simply not allowed to use anything that is said without permission in SL.

Hear, hear. It is what it is. 

Its as simple as that. 

Do     not     do     it     is what those who care about you would tell you.   

And yah that profile disclaimer or statement thing is just so totally completely N/A. 

[SoniaVileva]

Thank you for your opinion, but I still think it is better to have someone from LL to answer this. What you are suggesting, does not make sense.