Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Richardus Raymaker]

Not readed 56 pages on this topic.

But after some bleeh bah and aargh. am now intressted. Hope i can get early login to look around. Hopefull also playinmg at some point with things. This new sl2 can fix lots of problems. only problem people have , and thats the same for every old and new grids in development. people want there expensive SL inventory with them. Lucky never spended 100's of dollars in sl.already used to alpha grid's and software

one of the important things is to keep land cheap, and normal priced. cannot say that from SL now.

[Zena Zemlja]

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Richardus Raymaker wrote:

one of the important things is to keep land cheap, and normal priced. cannot say that from SL now.

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This!

[Pamela Galli]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

 

ToS will not be an issue. 

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The ToS is an issue NOW!! You told us you would have it fixed months ago.

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While I agree with this sentiment -- the ToS is a dreadfully wasteful distraction at this point, and needs to be fixed now so that Ebbe and other Lindens can communicate effectively, instead of triggering this same old problem over and over again...

although that's all true, what Ebbe was actually saying about the ToS was quite different, and quite interesting for its implications about the next platform. In the context of what he was replying to, it can only mean that any content in current SL is

eligible

to transfer to the new platform (separate from whether it technically can, or would work there).

That is, they will exercise the rights that they've had since the very beginning of SL to interpret "the service" inclusive of the new platform. Creators, then, do not need to give any additional license of their content for it to appear on that new grid -- they've already given it, all the way back to the first prim ever rezzed by any resident.

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Bingo!

[Pamela Galli]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

 

Get the Lindens back inworld -

 I remember the Linden Village area, inworld meetings, Lindens just hanging around just talking to passers by.  I haven't seen a Linden since M was CEO and their inworld presence got cut back.  It was reassuring to have staff inworld...proof they used the product they created.

Ebbe says: I removed the restriction that was in place for Lindens to be inworld. I'm not going to force people in there, but nothing is stopping them now. I go in as much as I can to hang out and chat with people. 

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If you need to build a new viewer, then you really need to have the people making the design decisions on the GUI spending time In World.  They need to try their hand at building.  They need to spend time flying or sailing.  They need to spend time at a Club. 

Because if things aren't made simplist for people, then you are still at square one with where the rubber meets the road.....where I am sitting at my computer.

I can show you common activities that used to take one mouse click that now require three in the Official Viewer.

You know why I use a TPV?  It's not for the bells and whistles.  It's because of a couple of simple little things that we repeatedly asked to be implemented in the Official Viewer that have been ignored for years.

If they don't spend some time In World they will just be building in the dark.

 

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Even better, give it to people who build a lot etc to test.  I hate to admit it, but there have been times when my customers discovered some bug in one of my products that my own testing did not reveal.

[Niecia Davi]

This may be a matter of not slowing down a new sl in the transfer of items that is not the issue 'at hand. The issue at hand is "lost revenue", lost investment in years of building up what one bought and paid for with ones own money in sl there is no other issue here.  What is being said here as i read it is that the average person who invested a lot is going to be forced to eat the cost of what they spent in sl or not move forward, and in the long run suffer that loss in a final pulling of the plug on sl1 by LL any way. What we can bring forward versus what we cannot and how much money will be lost in all of that and weather or not LL gives a damn about their customers taking this loss.   This definitely will have a major impact on sl commerce from this day forward. There are things now that if we buy we will not be able to transfer and why should we buy them if we cannot transfer them? They are talking a cut of 2/3 of my inventory a major investment into may items that there will be "no compensation for" just an oh well we cant do that because the new technology wouldn't handle it or it will slow it down, those type of excuses as legit as they may seem, are no explanation or help as to how we may get compensated for major losses that I will estimate will be in the billions for current sl residents. If i were any one I would be very selective about buying in the world right now and only buy according to the flimsy guidelines that have been provided so far by LL. it is a shame that we are being forced into a corner and having these new movements towards changed masking the fact that in order for it to happen all sl residents from the littlest guy to the most major investor will have to choke down a loss an expense that LL at this point does not give a damn about.

[Niecia Davi]

 Slowing down a new sl in the transfer of items or type of items to the new sl that is not the issue 'at hand. The issue at hand is "lost revenue", lost investment in years of building up what one bought and paid for with ones own money in sl there is no other issue here.  What is being said here as i read it is that the average person who invested a lot is going to be forced to eat the cost of what they spent in sl or not move forward, and in the long run suffer that loss in a final pulling of the plug on sl1 by LL any way. What we can bring forward versus what we cannot and how much money will be lost in all of that and weather or not LL gives a damn about their customers taking this loss.   This definitely will have a major impact on sl commerce from this day forward. There are things now that if we buy we will not be able to transfer and why should we buy them if we cannot transfer them? They are talking a cut of 2/3 of my inventory a major investment into many items that there will be "no compensation for" just an oh well we cant do that because the new technology wouldn't handle it or it will slow it down, those type of excuses as legit as they may seem, are no explanation or help as to how we may get compensated for major losses that I will estimate will be in the billions for current sl residents. If i were any one I would be very selective about buying in world right now and only buy according to the flimsy guidelines that have been provided so far by LL. it is a shame that we are being forced into a corner and having these new movements towards change masking the fact that in order for it to happen all sl residents from the littlest guy to the most major investor will have to choke down a loss an expense that LL at this point does not give a damn about.

[Phoebe Avro]

Not replying to you as such Pamela just your the last post in the thread

Something that has not been said here hardly is about the core reasons SL is not expanding and if LL continue in the current direction even with a new grid it will still fail!

Whats wrong with sl as it is, forget the bugs and scalability! SL does not attract new residents that stay!

why?

I said in a post back some way about the new resident experience being cr*p and it still it it has been fro many years
LL need to fix this one thing big time!

Many people have had ideas to help sl over the years I myself a while back listed some of my old ideas on this forum!

LL need to get more involved in SL and with the residents

SL needs some feel good factor how about a weekly raffel paying residents a cash prize (free to enter so it does not break gambling laws)

LL need to hold regular events with Lindens attending (remember the snow ball fights) hey LL never did anything last Christmas as far as i know!

LL need to be proactive with the SL community

If LL don't know what to do then open a thread asking for ideas with a cash prize for any that are taken up^^

LL still owe me 10,000L$ from a sec project jira i made about virus infected jpeg on their website the jire was answered very quick saying they would look into it that link has since been removed but where is my 10,000L$ reward that the wiki said at the time your get? i even said i would donate it to relay of life and the sofie lancaster fund in sl! i can copy paste the jira text here if need be!

are LL so tight ?

[Niecia Davi]

haha if this wae a planned leak they best be prepared to roll out sl2 in the next 90 days or that silence you may hear may be the absence of commerce in the current sl.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Niecia Davi wrote:

haha if this wae a planned leak they best be prepared to roll out sl2 in the next 90 days or that silence you may hear may be the absence of commerce in the current sl.

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Do you think so?   I've very rarely let the thought that I might not be wearing a hair or a skin or some shoes or some clothes or whatever in SL in a year or so's time stop me from buying them if I like them.

 

[Phoebe Avro]

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Phoebe Avro added a comment - 09/May/12 9:46 PM

http://virtualitalians.com/images/logoSP... is the url that's reported

 

Soft Linden added a comment - 09/May/12 9:46 PM

Thank you for the report, Phoebe. We're having a look now.

 

Phoebe Avro added a comment - 01/May/13 5:40 PM

Since the webpage on the LL website is now removed! do i get the 10,000L$ ^^ if i do i will donate it to relay of life!and the Sophie Lancaster Foundation at the world goth fair

by the dates you can see i waited a year

[Pamela Galli]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Niecia Davi wrote:

haha if this wae a planned leak they best be prepared to roll out sl2 in the next 90 days or that silence you may hear may be the absence of commerce in the current sl.

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Do you think so?   I've very rarely let the thought that I might not be wearing a hair or a skin or some shoes or some clothes or whatever in SL in a year or so's time stop me from buying them if I like them.

 

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No, but there is a set of content creators who make very complex items that take months to build, and who spend a great deal of time to keep them updated with state of the art modeling, texturing, scripting, and animations, and which take a considerable investment on the part of the customer.  For those of us in this group, say a year or so down the line, I would expect to see sales drop precipitously unless we come up with a way to reassure our clientele we will make sure they will have their purchases in either grid. 

Life is not fair, tho, and I am not going to complain because this move will probably hit me where it hurts -- SL does not revolve around me. 

My greatest concern, given the extreme amounts of time my content takes even to assemble, texture, install scripts and animations for, after I have made the meshes and textures -- is how I will have the time to fill a new store with content and run my SL business in my "spare" time. But again, that is my problem, just the kind of change that grown ups discover they have to deal with from time to time :-)

[Imagin Illyar]

If Linden Lab didn't create a new next generation virtual world, someone else would.  In fact, several currently are.  So let's say LL doesn't do this, they just keep putting bandaids on an 11 year old platform for as long as they can.  Then next year or the year after this bright and shiney next-gen VW comes out and people start leaving SL for it, because it's really better in so many ways!  Then what happens to our beloved SL?  It dies a slow death, and everyone would say that LL should have seen it coming.

If you were moving to someone else's next-gen VW what do you think you would be able to take with you?  Nothing.

As is, SL as we know it isn't going to close for several years at least.  About as long as it would last if someone else makes a better world.  The demise of SL is inevitable whether LL does this or not.  The move to LL's new world will be a heck of a lot easier than a move to a completely foreign one.  And if you don't want to move at all, then stay until the bitter end.  But saying that this is a bad move on LL's part is just plain stupid.  LL is investing in their own future and in ours as SLers.  Our best bet of keeping the spirit of the world we love is in supporting this change.

[Innula Zenovka]

I do appreciate your particular position, Pamela.   I was thinking more, though, of the more general product lines.   Particular sections of the market may well suffer, but I don't see it being a general thing.

I'm cursing a bit, since we now know that scripts and animations won't port, which means everything my business partner and I make.    I'm not, though, going to worry about it yet.   It may be that we'll decide -- once we know something about the new scripting language and animations format -- that we'll develop completely new product lines for SL2, to take advantage of what's possible in the new environment, while continuing to develop and support our existing product lines in SL1.   SL1 is where we make our money, after all, and I'm not going to take my eye off that particular ball while we're preparing for SL2.

To my mind, we're going to have a reasonable cross-over period.   SL1 is safe, after all, for as long as it's LL's main income stream, and I don't see that changing for a few years yet.   It may well be that some things -- e.g. RLV -- can't translate to the new environment and that other things -- e.g. Bloodlines -- don't get ported over.   That would mean two of our main product groups will have to stay in SL1, and will need supporting while we develop new products for SL2.   But that's just speculation, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.    

 

[Kehl Razor]

Alright LL, I was getting worried there for a min with all this new VR stuff in the news... Like it was ready to be the War of the Virtual Worlds and we were on the verge of new ones  launching with new technology leaving SL in the dust.   TY for announcing the viewer and knowing how important that it is you make - and seeing the bigger picture.  Makes me feel 100xs more secure about staying and making a living on here.

What are the chances the development will get turbo streamlined and the viewer will be ready in the next 90 days? :smileylol:

 

[Gaia Clary]

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

The move to LL's new world will be a heck of a lot easier than a move to a completely foreign one.  And if you don't want to move at all, then stay until the bitter end.  But saying that this is a bad move on LL's part is just plain stupid.  LL is investing in their own future and in ours as SLers.  Our best bet of keeping the spirit of the world we love is in supporting this change.

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I could easily start nagging, that our 5 year investment in making cool tools has become void over night. And then drop everything and flee from here in panic. But actually i am HAPPY that we can eventually move away from brain damaging complexity under the hood.

 

What a relief will it be when we no longer have to handle Collision Volumes as replacement for Morph shapes. or reuse the skull bone for facial expressions, or login an Alt account when all we want is an animated tree, or bend a human skeleton into a horse, just because we only have this one set of bones, or, or or...

do you know how much time i have wasted just to explain an SL related problem to a "normal" modeller, animator, skin designer ? I feel like an idiot sometimes when i have to explain why this horse uses a human armature... and what sculpted prims are... and so on...

Don't get me wrong. I do not say, it should have been done different in SL. I am aware that many things we see today are heavily influenced by what was possible in a given system where the main rule was "avoid to break existing content when implementing new features". Sculpted Prims as ugly they are, they where a genious idea actually.

If the new world holds at least a fraction of what it promises, then all i can say: YEAH! Free time ahead, eventually i will be able to step away from dusty SL corners and step into the bright light of a new house   (that's my hope: Sparkling experience!)

[Imagin Illyar]

I know what you mean.  I've spent the last 7 years buying sims and building my estate.  The future is pretty uncertain for estate owners right now but I'm not upset because always, in the back of my mind, I knew this couldn't last forever.  Now that LL is stepping up and taking this initiative I feel it's a lot more likely that I will be able to continue doing what I love for a very long time.

I just hope that I don't have to start completely from scratch!

 

[Ebbe Linden]

You will be able to use your L$ in both SL and the next platform as you wish. 

And SL will be around for a very long time.

[Pamela Galli]

I cant imagine LL not making sure it remains worth the time spent being an estate owner, since they do SO much customer support.  About 80% of the CS I provide has nothing to do with my products but viewer, sim, server, tags, how to mod, etc.

[Ebbe Linden]

Thanks!

[Ebbe Linden]

Thank you Coby. 

[ChinRey]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Do you think so?   I've very rarely let the thought that I might not be wearing a hair or a skin or some shoes or some clothes or whatever in SL in a year or so's time stop me from buying them if I like them.

 

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It would be interesting to get some facts about that. All the merhcants I have chatted with tell me sales dropped significantly after the leak but I can't say if that's a general problem.

 

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

If Linden Lab didn't create a new next generation virtual world, someone else would.

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 That's true. Whether we like it or not, LL simply doesn't have a choice. There is a limit to how long you can keep patching up outdated software and SL reached that limit long ago. The only way forward is to rebuild from scratch.

The question is how will LL do it?

Very few people in Second Life feel any loyality to Linden Labs so they won't move over just because it's LL's big new thing. They need some real reson to move there.

I think content is the keyword here. The things we own in SL may only be a few bytes of data on a server far away but they feel real. Many of them hold fond memories too. You don't just leave your home and all your belongings to start anew somewhere else. Not voluntarily at least and if they force you - well you certainly won't move in with the people who you feel destroyed your old home. To have any chance to succeed at all, LL has to offer a way for people to transfer their SL belongings to the new VW. The transfer doesn't have to be perfect - you have to expect some damage when moving - but it has to be good eough.

As to new content, who's gonna make it? Why would anybody spend countless hours making some wonderful 3D object just to upload it to a VW where you may make a RL dollar or two from it if you're lucky.

The reason why so many good builders work for SL is partly because the in-world tools still are relevant for 3D modelling, although less and less so for every month. Another reason builders stay in SL is that it's a great place to discuss and learn the craft. There are so many great and helpful builders here already so there's always somebody to discuss your ideas with. But it's also out of sheer habit. You started building in SL and you're so used to the thought that that's where your works belong, it doesn't really occur to you that you don't really have to upload your meshes there.

All that will be gone with the Big Move and builders need a new, substantial, reason to build for this new world. What will that be? Will it be possible to make some noticebale income from it? Not very likely. Will this new world offer a big attentive audience? LL doesn't and there's no way the new world will be better - at least not from the start.

The only thing LL's new VW can possibly offer builders in return for the time and effort they spend, is a place to work and tools to work with. They need to come up with a modern equivalent to the prim system - easy to use but with endless possibilities (and preferably a system not permanently sutck in Beta this time). If they can't come up with that, the new world is doomed from the start.

[Derek Torvalar]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

You asked: 

1 - What type of assets are more likelly to be transferable to SL2 and what probably not? (meshes, animations, sculpts, scripts, textures, builds made of normal prims, system clothing ?)

We don't have all the answers to this one yet, but several areas will have radical improvements and thus not possible to be fully backwards compatible. 

Mesh is ok (but with better lighting and other tech you may want to make tweaks)

Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)

Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Scripts (major improvement, so will change)

Textures ok

Prims (TBD, but probably not as is)

Avatars will be radically improved as well so a lot TBD 

Again, we will have years to sort this all out together

...

2 - Is SL2 to be considerd "another grid" in which case the TOS of most full permission creators would prohibit the transfer to that grid? If that is the case, could LL speak a word of power and decide that for full permission items that CAN be transfered, the new SL should be considered as the "same grid" ?

ToS will not be an issue. 

3 - Will at least the L$ currency remain the same and will available balances be usable in both worlds?

Yes

4 - Will the 2 worlds be connected in any way and will an avatar be able to move from one to another with the same name and profile and groups and friends? And .. some of its inventory..

Identity and friends will be preserved. Inventory depends on above decisions under #1 but we clearly want as much of existing work to be possible to leverage as long as it will not impact how good the new platform can be. 

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Years? Beta is in 2015. That is next year, 6 months. Release in 2016, 18 months. 

You are anticipating then that it won't work to specs from the outset and will require 'years' to make it fully functional? 

 

You have pulled your pants down Ebbe and called everyone over to "Hey! Look at what I got!" 

The thing is you haven't got anything!

Your reach appears to have exceeded your grasp.

Should there actually be anyone at LL now or when in the future the hiring process is complete, with the talent to actually realize this vision, whatever the hell it may be, I seriously doubt whether you have the tools to bring it off.

Regardless, in future pay heed, 

 

 

Word on the street is that bookmakers have your association with the Lab not likely to last past Christmas.

 

Stay off the NJ turnpike! LOL

 

[Chris24fm Thorkveld]

Ebbe,

Thanks for your patience as people process this - don't know that I could do the same. 

Your straightforward answers are appreciated too. To show that appreciation I (and I think quite a few others) would like to know what questions YOU would like users to answer about this? What input would help you make strategic decisions or tactical moves based on what users think? ( vs what issues some like to lecture about.)

Despite appearances, there are a lot of smart people here who don't value ranting and who would give you useful answers if you have a question or two you'd like to throw out there. So please feel encouraged to do so if it helps you.

Regards,

Chris

[Ebbe Linden]

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Gaia Clary wrote:

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Vince Rallier wrote:

 But this to me is the biggest thing next to the money issue,is the emotional one.And is the one I think the lindens always overlook.We are real people behind the avatars,real feelings,fears etc.To them we are just dollar signs.

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I agree fully with you about the emotional part of this. I also can understand how fear and uncertainty can make things turn bad. I too fear the day when i register to that new platform only to see that someone else has already grabbed my avie name. And of course i would so much appreciate to keep my social network intact when stepping over to SL2.

But i can not get angry and frustrated about something that i fear that might possibly or possibly not happen in the future. So maybe there will be a common account for both worlds (which would make a lot of sense after all) and this fear (besides other uncertainties) can eventually be taken away from us.

well, i prefer to wait until i get informed about what the policies will be. Then its time for me to decide my next step. And sure i would be interested to get informed as soon as possible... I just propose to not step away in anger before there is anything to become angry about.

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You will certainly be able keep your identity, social network and L$ and you can hop back and forth and decide for yourself where it makes sense to spend your time and energy. 

 

[Phoebe Avro]

I predicted Rod leaving LL two months before he did on these  very  forums^^

I would not be surprised if the current CEO gets booted within the same time frame