Discuss or Comments about Child, Adult, Can't Tell Thread

[Sadvhi]

Just now, Dorientje Woller said:

Is that an issue for all those that are creating adult bodies and skins? If you decide to run nekkid around like a child with an adult body and a childlike skin on it in an A-rated sim, and you run into the verbal "lightbulb" (as they call it in my language for being caught red handed), that's your fault and not the creator of the adult body nor the skin creator. It's the danged sickening disease of nowadays ... shuffing your own responsibility into the necks of those that nothing have to do with it.

I wasn't referring to anyone running around naked, but according to the new rules, if someone is roleplaying under 18, they need to wear a skin that has modesty layers baked into it.

[Dorientje Woller]

1 minute ago, Sadvhi said:

I wasn't referring to anyone running around naked, but according to the new rules, if someone is roleplaying under 18, they need to wear a skin that has modesty layers baked into it.

Wrong, the body has the modesty layers baked into it, because like that they are not removable. A skin with baked in modesty layers is still removable or replaceble.

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Is that an issue for all those that are creating adult bodies and skins? If you decide to run nekkid around like a child with an adult body and a childlike skin on it in an A-rated sim, and you run into the verbal "lightbulb" (as they call it in my language for being caught red handed), that's your fault and not the creator of the adult body nor the skin creator. It's the danged sickening disease of nowadays ... shuffing your own responsibility into the necks of those that nothing have to do with it.

Not sure anyone said they HAD to but wouldn't it be nice if Maitreya chose to adjust their current body in such a way to comply with the rule of no defined genitals so under 18 users could continue to wear all.of.their content?  Is it a big ask?  Might be but if it's not that difficult, fusing the first BoM layer to the current body and smoothing the genital area, why not?

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Not sure anyone said they HAD to but wouldn't it be nice if Maitreya chose to adjust their current body in such a way to comply with the rule of no defined genitals so under 18 users could continue to wear all.of.their content?  Is it a big ask?  Might be but if it's not that difficult, fusing the first BoM layer to the current body and smoothing the genital area, why not?

Thank you for battling disinformation, it will be an uphill battle!

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Wrong, the body has the modesty layers baked into it, because like that they are not removable. A skin with baked in modesty layers is still removable or replaceble.

No. You're deliberately misrepresenting the advice.

Governance guidelines are, and this has been confirmed over and over again, that either (one or the other) the body OR the skin must have irremovable modesty coverings.

 

[Aya Sweetheart]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

One issue with using the extra layer for smoothing the groin, and other parts of the body, is that if you keep it on and wear mesh clothing it quite often pokes through the mesh. I can't keep my panties smooth and also wear some mesh clothing because the layer that is doing the smoothing contains the skin and any BOM system layers you are wearing. I'm pretty sure, I could be wrong, but pretty sure even alpha cuts don't work on that BOM add-on layer that does the smoothing. So in this case, a teen using that layer to smooth the camels toe would have to remove it when wearing certain mesh clothing. I've even had to remove it when wearing skirts because it poked ever so slightly, but still obvious, through the front of the skirt. 

That makes sense.  I guess I don't run into that because I don't manually change clothes parts except when creating an outfit... once its saved I just click the outfit I want to wear and let the viewer change everything... the most I have to do is hit the save stick to apply my body changes, like alpha layers if needed, in an extra click.  I don't have those extras on with outfits they aren't needed on... though I mainly only use ones for toes.

Edited May 10 by Aya Sweetheart
typos!

[Blush Bravin]

3 hours ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

That makes sense.  I guess I don't run into that because I don't manually change clothes parts except when creating an outfit... once its saved I just click the outfit I want to wear and let the viewer change everything... the most I have to do is hit the save stick to apply my body changes, like alpha layers if needed, in an extra click.  I don't have those extras on with outfits they aren't needed on... though I mainly only use ones for toes.

That's understandable. I typically use it just for smoothing the camel toe when wearing dresses/skirts or for smoothing out cleavage when wearing BOM tops under mesh jacket. Most of the time it works but sometimes it doesn't. Which is why some teens wanting to smooth out that camel toe may have issues with it wearing mesh clothing. Hopefully it won't be an issue for them; or one they can solve by wearing something else.

Edited May 11 by Blush Bravin

[brodiac90]

4 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Wrong, the body has the modesty layers baked into it, because like that they are not removable. A skin with baked in modesty layers is still removable or replaceble.

Both Keira and Tommy Linden referenced skins when discussing the modesty layers at the Governance meeting on 9/5/24. I pointed out that skins could be removed (replaced is more accurate) and therefore it would be possible to remove a modesty layer in practice. Tommy then confirmed that yes, this was possible, but would be a massive breach of TOS. You can find his and Keria's statements in my thread. 

[Ceka Cianci]

5 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Wrong, the body has the modesty layers baked into it, because like that they are not removable. A skin with baked in modesty layers is still removable or replaceble.

Replaceable was not in the new guidelines.

Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed.

 Honestly, something should be done about listing skins  now, because many of them are just tattoo layers rather than  actual skins. But that's just wishful thinking on my part.. hehehe

Edited May 11 by Ceka Cianci

[Persephone Emerald]

8 hours ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I have an alt who was created to be without age and without gender.  They always wear clothes that cover the body, have never been out without modesty BOM on, and are higher on the height scale than my other alts.  I don't think I would have problems being on adult land because there is absolutely nothing sexual going on. However, "without age" is subjective, isn't it.  To be safe, I picked up a cat head to plop on them, but I think I am safe to visit adult areas if I am NOT doing adult things to make people wonder if I am trying to get away with an edge-case.

I think this avatar looks female, gender non-conforming and at least 18. It looks to me like they use a female head and body - so to me they look biologically female. It's hard for me to not refer to them as "she", but as you said they were supposed to be without gender, if they were a real person, I imagine they would not want to be mis-gendered as female. The facial expressions and postures look mature to me, so along with your description of them being tall and the modest, sophisticated clothing, this make me think they are at least out of high school. The top picture looks a little younger, because their hair is in their eyes, which reads to me as immature.

[Roxy Couturier]

14 hours ago, Lexxi Gynoid said:

Yeah, and it doesn't help 'learn' how to tell people's age when they can and do have full grown adults play teenagers in films and tv shows. And occasionally mix full age adults with kid actors playing the same age in the same film/tv show. Occasionally it is not easy to tell which specific individual actor is 25 and which is 15. And they are both playing 18 year olds.

I was just thinking about this today. Glad i read the thread first, I was going to post this idea after I caught up!

I saw an article about Buffy and recalled SMG was about 20 or so when she played Buffy, a 16 year old. We see these 'teens' on TV and their older features blend into a mental correlation of 'that's someone under 18'. It's pervasive.

Off the top of my head, two shows come to mind.. 90210 and Melrose Place (people in their 30's playing people in their 20s). The original Shameless from the UK had (I think) a 27 year old play a 17yr old.. of course the hot and heavy sex she was having played a part in that decision, I'm sure.

[Blaise Glendevon]

Not to bring too much real-world sadness into the thread, but considering what we've heard about the way teenage actors under the age of majority have been treated recently, I wouldn't mind if all high schoolers were played by 20 year olds. 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

On 5/9/2024 at 7:46 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And I think that what this implies, quite correctly, is that we are judging these looks on the basis of expectations within SL, rather than what an analogous young person might look like in RL.

And that's probably the right way to go about it. Rather than arguing "I know a 15 year old who looks like this in RL!" it would be better and more appropriate to judge looks using our understanding of how things "look" in SL, as well as the culture here.

I agree that when judging the appearance of avatars we should base those expectations on the technical capabilities (and limitations) of the platform as far as the scope that people have to accurately represent the physical signs of aging.

My concern, however, is how the culture in SL may skew peoples perceptions.  SL culture is more sexualized overall than in RL and it's very easy for people to exist within the microcosm of their own little sub-culture/community.  Residents can set their home to their favourite sim, teleport around to other sims of a similar nature, interact with like-minded people and, in effect, be completely insulated from other communities within SL which can potentially lead to a very narrow perception of what SL culture is overall.

So far reactions to pictures of peoples avatars seem to be pretty reasonable and realistic so perhaps my fears are unfounded but I am still concerned that the prevalence of the stereotypical "6 foot tall amazonian avatar in skimpy clothing" is going to skew some peoples perception of SL cultural norms in a way that makes them assume that any less statuesque avatar that's more conservatively dressed is representing as non-adult simply because "They're short and I can't see enough skin to tell if they're wearing a modesty layer!"

As I said, SL can be a very insular place and some people have a tendency to stay primarily within their own little "pocket" and don't venture out much beyond that, it would be a shame if fear of those differences in perception of what SL culture is deterred people from exploring SL as a whole and caused them to withdraw further into their own communities.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

My concern, however, is how the culture in SL may skew peoples perceptions.  SL culture is more sexualized overall

I agree. I think we're far more likely to "see" sexuality in SL where we might not in RL.

If we see a toddler running around naked at a beach in RL, we're not very likely (unless we are really predisposed to "look" for predation) to think much of it. See the same thing in SL? A very different story -- although of course that's also a function of the fact that we know that the SL toddler is played by an adult.

17 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

it's very easy for people to exist within the microcosm of their own little sub-culture/community.

And we're really seeing that at play here, I think.

18 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

So far reactions to pictures of peoples avatars seem to be pretty reasonable and realistic so perhaps my fears are unfounded but I am still concerned that the prevalence of the stereotypical "6 foot tall amazonian avatar in skimpy clothing" is going to skew some peoples perception of SL cultural norms in a way that makes them assume that any less statuesque avatar that's more conservatively dressed is representing as non-adult simply because "They're short and I can't see enough skin to tell if they're wearing a modesty layer!"

This may be a function of my own insularity, but I myself really haven't seen a great deal of height discrimination.

But yes, that kind of context is part of what I was getting at -- and why we need to account for the ways in which SL distorts our perspective. What I didn't necessarily mean to suggest is that it should entirely dictate it. But I may not have been clear enough.

20 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

it would be a shame if fear of those differences in perception of what SL culture is deterred people from exploring SL as a whole and caused them to withdraw further into their own communities.

Agreed. But don't we see that now?

[Coffee Pancake]

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Agreed. But don't we see that now?

When i started SL, you could find public games played by all avatars from all communities. That all ended the first time LL singled out a specific community for special mostly undeserved attention.

Now all communities are insular to the point  that when they leave en-masse, the rest of us don't notice.

There have been several such migrations in the last few years alone. Furry and (especially) Anime to VRChat, Gorean to Conan. various other content or franchise specific RP groups are now only keeping a token presence here.

There is safety in sticking with the in-group. No one will make up a reason to try and get you banned for the crime of existing.

It's sad, but that's where we have been for years. Child avatars are the canaries, they always get picked out first, and every other community backs away as a result. It will be no different this time.

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I agree. I think we're far more likely to "see" sexuality in SL where we might not in RL.

If we see a toddler running around naked at a beach in RL, we're not very likely (unless we are really predisposed to "look" for predation) to think much of it. See the same thing in SL? A very different story -- although of course that's also a function of the fact that we know that the SL toddler is played by an adult.

Yes, for me the distinction between an actual child and an adult using a child avatar is quite clear and I don't see how anyone could argue that there's a grey area in that respect at all. My only issue with the TOS in regards to toddler type avatars is their potential loss of inventory but I think that is, to at least some degree, unavoidable.

The area I do see as grey is the fact that this, by necessity, extends to teen avatars that might be presenting as adults but are in that "are they or aren't they" category.  I haven't posted in the avatar picture thread yet but as an example here's a slightly larger version of my profile picture (I would consider my avatar to be around late teens early twenties)...

...the person on the right (added for comparison and because I was surprised by the similarity) is 25 years old.

As I said I would consider my avatar to be around late teens to early twenties but I can see how some residents who have very different perceptions of how an "SL adult" should look could estimate it to be younger.

31 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And we're really seeing that at play here, I think.

The amount of "culture shock" that seems to happen in SL is a little disheartening since it illustrates just how insulated the community is becoming.

36 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This may be a function of my own insularity, but I myself really haven't seen a great deal of height discrimination.

But yes, that kind of context is part of what I was getting at -- and why we need to account for the ways in which SL distorts our perspective. What I didn't necessarily mean to suggest is that it should entirely dictate it. But I may not have been clear enough.

I suspect my insularity is worse since my PC really can't handle built up areas and certainly isn't powerful enough to run SL and any graphics apps so when I do have time for SL I'm forced to choose between creating or actually logging into SL (and my only reason for being in SL is to create so...) and I rarely get to experience much of SL beyond hopping to an event to grab some demos and trying to escape before my client crashes.  So, since I don't really have any experience with SL culture I can only judge by the posts I read on the forums and what I hear from friends who are more active which is why I'm more than happy to accept that my fears are unfounded if evidence is provided to the contrary.

Anyway, I didn't interpret your post to mean that you were suggesting that it should be entirely dictated by those perspectives but was rather pointing out that perspectives of SL cultural norms can vary even more wildly than in RL because in SL cultures can be more insular and the differences between them more drastic (since we have a far greater scope for creativity and the appearance of our avatars than we do in RL).

46 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Agreed. But don't we see that now?

Absolutely, which is why we should be careful to avoid anything which further contributes to that trend.

[Devilgrey]

maybe i should post more anime, furry type, and male example bc all we got is human females so far? so far the two i did post seem to lean 50/50 on either confused or adult/teen

the anime character is actually based on an miroku from inuyasha who is canonically 18 in the series. but i feel anime characters in general look like very young, especially to non-fans that don't know the style well.

the girl uses genus baby face which to me i feel like is why ppl are picking confused. she's supposed to have a chubby build which is why i picked that head when making her. (also feel like the tomboy outfit probably comes off as teen-like despite knowing many 20+ yr olds dressing similarly).

 

[Devilgrey]

2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

The area I do see as grey is the fact that this, by necessity, extends to teen avatars that might be presenting as adults but are in that "are they or aren't they" category.  I haven't posted in the avatar picture thread yet but as an example here's a slightly larger version of my profile picture (I would consider my avatar to be around late teens early twenties)...

...the person on the right (added for comparison and because I was surprised by the similarity) is 25 years old.

As I said I would consider my avatar to be around late teens to early twenties but I can see how some residents who have very different perceptions of how an "SL adult" should look could estimate it to be younger.

that woman does resemble your avatar so much. RL examples of youthful 20+ yr olds does show estimating late teens- young adults will depend on multiple factors other than appearance.

if i was into posting pics of myself online i would. because i get comments frequently IRL about how i look like a 18-20 yr old despite being 25. i think it's just how i dress and dont wear makeup. Also as genderqueer tomboy, wearing baggy clothes probably hides my figure too.

Edited May 11 by Devilgrey
typos like always

[Zalificent Corvinus]

48 minutes ago, Devilgrey said:

the anime character is actually based on NOBODY a NON-Otaku has ever heard of who is canonically 18 in the series. but i feel anime characters in general look like very young, especially to non-otaku that don't know who the hell your talking about or what "fluff" lore was in the cartoon.

 

Fixed that for you.

This is without a doubt one of the WORST "but it's JAPANESE, off course it's ADULT" arguments Anime fans reliably give..

 

You CANNOT reasonably expect "average non-otaku people" to have a sodding clue who who "Suki Kabuki" is, or how old they are supposed to be, or why an alleged "29 yr old" is wearing a costume that implies she's only 10 in the "tentacle gangbang scene that's integral to the ARTISTIC theme of the piece and highlights important social issues regarding the flavour sachets on instant ramen packets in Californian High School canteens blah blah blah" because the non-otakus JUST DON'T CARE.

 

Looks like a 10 ear olds head on a 15 year olds body, AR it off the adult regions.

 

[Psyche Starling]

For those posting in the guessing thread, it does help if we can see your face clearly!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 hours ago, Devilgrey said:

the anime character is actually based on an miroku from inuyasha who is canonically 18 in the series. but i feel anime characters in general look like very young, especially to non-fans that don't know the style well.

Hey Devilgrey! Glad you posted in here because I wanted to comment on your avatar. I adore it and it's so rare (for me) to see male anime avies in SL. You did a great job with him. I have been slacking SO HARD and didn't rate any other photos yet, but I did instinctively rate that one as 18+ when I saw him. 

I'm not exactly an anime or manga fan at all, but I'm familiar with it enough through gaming to recognize the look. To me, your avatar looks a teensy bit more mature than some of the Danganronpa 1,2,3, and anime cast (which nobody agrees 100% on, but considering it takes place in a high school with some lost time here and there, fans seem to settle on them being in the 17-20ish range). Given that, I landed on 18 on the lower end, with mayyyybe 20-21 on the higher. Hope that helps!

 

3 hours ago, Devilgrey said:

maybe i should post more anime, furry type, and male example bc all we got is human females so far? so far the two i did post seem to lean 50/50 on either confused or adult/teen

You absolutely could, but don't be surprised if some struggle aging you. We know anime is difficult already, but furries are kind of impossible to tell when you're looking at late teen vs. adult - and I say that as someone who wears them. All you'd really be able to change is hairstyle, dress, accessories, and body size/shape - and when you're a mouse or a duck, how would one know where we fall exactly? I'm assuming in that case, LL would only be interested in obvious "child" furries and not people playing 17 year old kangaroos, but who knows, lol.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

12 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I think this avatar looks female, gender non-conforming and at least 18. It looks to me like they use a female head and body - so to me they look biologically female. It's hard for me to not refer to them as "she", but as you said they were supposed to be without gender, if they were a real person, I imagine they would not want to be mis-gendered as female. The facial expressions and postures look mature to me, so along with your description of them being tall and the modest, sophisticated clothing, this make me think they are at least out of high school. The top picture looks a little younger, because their hair is in their eyes, which reads to me as immature.

Everything I used on this avatar is female. I used Maitreya and Lelutka because I already knew how to use them.  I struggled with making my male alt masculine, too.  I finally ended up just putting facial hair on him to age him.  

With this look, I may have to branch out from what I already know and try some new creators that I'm not familiar with. I definitely need to find a flat chest I like that also has enough clothing I like.

The goal with the look was to be nondescript.  Someone no one would notice. I want to take them out to walk down a busy street and blend so well that no one gives them a second look. A true wallflower. 

I really like logging in on them and disappearing into my own thoughts. Knowing that no matter where I choose to go, no one will IM or even notice. It is a certain kind of freedom to be a part of the crowd without having to actively engage. I think I will spend time in different skin stores today to see what I can find.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

On 5/9/2024 at 3:44 PM, Aya Sweetheart said:

 Sucks for me because I don't want to be big, fat, and/or dress like an old person...

We have all that in rl, why would we want to do it in here too?

[Love Zhaoying]

51 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Everything I used on this avatar is female. I used Maitreya and Lelutka because I already knew how to use them.  I struggled with making my male alt masculine, too.  I finally ended up just putting facial hair on him to age him.  

With this look, I may have to branch out from what I already know and try some new creators that I'm not familiar with. I definitely need to find a flat chest I like that also has enough clothing I like.

The goal with the look was to be nondescript.  Someone no one would notice. I want to take them out to walk down a busy street and blend so well that no one gives them a second look. A true wallflower. 

I really like logging in on them and disappearing into my own thoughts. Knowing that no matter where I choose to go, no one will IM or even notice. It is a certain kind of freedom to be a part of the crowd without having to actively engage. I think I will spend time in different skin stores today to see what I can find.

Cinnamon, since I find the androgynous example very attractive, I hope they are intended "Adult" (I don't want to be the "creepy type")!  I don't give a lot of compliments in-world since I'm not "that guy", but would probably be brave enough to do so if I ran into one of yours in-world.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Psyche Starling said:

For those posting in the guessing thread, it does help if we can see your face clearly!

It's more "opinion" than "guessing", I don't think most are trying to "fool us"! 

The thread started out with people getting other's opinions, although some do seem like "trick questions".