So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[LittleMe Jewell]

30 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

or log out and in on the accountpage?... i got the window there to accept it

Nevermind

Edited May 4 by LittleMe Jewell

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

If you think Lindens can't read past IMs I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

 

That's why I asked as that might explain why some bannings took place in spite of the Resident swearing they were doing nothing wrong at the time. Some of those who like playing with younger looking avatars can really press one to state one is under 18 and if agreed to, that would put the young looking avatar at risk and vulnerable to a ban even if they wouldn't normally. When one is in the middle of such a conversation with another it is easy to let one's guard down.

[Leslie Trihey]

Reasonable SL users? We're all mad as hatters here. 🤪

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

For what it's worth, I've always thought that if you feel you have to stress in your profile that your avatar is supposed to be 18 or more, that's probably a sign that enough people think it doesn't look like an 18 year old that it would be a good idea to tweak your appearance a bit.

It's not just a matter of stressing one's age or even appearing like one is under 18 as there are those out there who seems to get off on just having someone admit they are under 18, regardless of look.

[Chery Amore]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It's not just a matter of stressing one's age or even appearing like one is under 18 as there are those out there who seems to get off on just having someone admit they are under 18, regardless of look.

They need to not give into pressure because their account could be at stake.

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

For what it's worth, I've always thought that if you feel you have to stress in your profile that your avatar is supposed to be 18 or more, that's probably a sign that enough people think it doesn't look like an 18 year old that it would be a good idea to tweak your appearance a bit.

Almost every single time I see this in a profile and then look at the avatar, it's questionable.  If they also have a Flickr with some questionable photos, well then, yeah.  Your statement means nothing if I were a region owner.

Edited May 4 by Rowan Amore

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'm thinking we are so caught up in this Child-hater vs Children

Stop calling anyone who supports efforts to reduce pedophilia "child haters". 

[Henri Beauchamp]

37 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

What viewer are you using?   Try with the latest official viewer if you're using something else.

If that doesn't work, please raise a support ticket.

Not a viewer issue. It's a Windows 7 vs ”recent” (post February 2023) CEF issue. See this post.

Edited May 4 by Henri Beauchamp

[Vivienne Schell]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It's not just a matter of stressing one's age or even appearing like one is under 18 as there are those out there who seems to get off on just having someone admit they are under 18, regardless of look.

Why would anyone press anyone to admit something? Eject, ban, mute and done. And in case of an obvioius ToS violation, AR.

[LittleMe Jewell]

18 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I was wondering how Governance could really investigate further to conclusively prove whether age playing was going on other then to go through IM logs. Is that possible? Are there server side log of IM's or are they encrypted?

The IMs are most definitely saved on the server, not encrypted (even if you have told the viewer to save your IMs to your computer).  They could have programs that scan IMs looking for certain words and then if found, a person would then have to manually read things to confirm what did or did not happen.

My understanding though is that the majority of any pedo action really happens with the chat portion being outside of SL.  So reading thru chat and IM logs would mostly be to try to determine if a child avatar intentionally went to an adult location or other things that would not be appropriate.

[Aya Sweetheart]

3 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

For what it's worth, I've always thought that if you feel you have to stress in your profile that your avatar is supposed to be 18 or more, that's probably a sign that enough people think it doesn't look like an 18 year old that it would be a good idea to tweak your appearance a bit.

I guess you haven't met the haters that think anything under 6 foot or fat or doesn't have giant thighs, butt, and boobs are kids.  There are a lot of stupid people out there that have really bad perception.  Also in a gray area some people don't get it, I've had creeps messaging me asking if I can get a bit younger... I'd rather make it clear I am an adult avatar always and forever and have them leave me alone... it only takes the 1 or 2 to cause issues even if 99% of people think things are fine.  I can be in one area and look 20+ then go somewhere else with people using old giant avatars and perceptions change.  I shouldn't have to look like a 30 year old, or giant, or ugly just so people don't give me problems.

[Rowan Amore]

People might want to be careful as well as to what their Favs are on their f-list.  Parent and Child Play?  Kind of a red flag to me.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Chery Amore said:

They need to not give into pressure because their account could be at stake.

I can see that and now knowing that IM's are not private to Governance, even more risky with all the ones out there disliking younger looking avatars. Would be an idea to broadcast that information.

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Why would anyone press anyone to admit something? Eject, ban, mute and done. And in case of an obvioius ToS violation, AR.

It's not admitting but going along with the RP in some situations.

[Chery Amore]

Personally I think people should keep adult and child roleplay accounts separate. No switching back and forth. Is that realistic with how old accounts are ..not really, but this might be a good time for some to really think about making their account with all the adult goodies on it their adult roleplay account and open a new fresh and innocent roleplay account for underage.. especially for child roleplay accounts.  I mean if you have to start from scratch as a kid avatar anyway why not just do it?

Edited May 4 by Chery Amore

[Vivienne Schell]

5 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

I guess you haven't met the haters that think anything under 6 foot or fat or doesn't have giant thighs, butt, and boobs are kids.  There are a lot of stupid people out there that have really bad perception.  Also in a gray area some people don't get it, I've had creeps messaging me asking if I can get a bit younger... I'd rather make it clear I am an adult avatar always and forever and have them leave me alone... it only takes the 1 or 2 to cause issues even if 99% of people think things are fine.  I can be in one area and look 20+ then go somewhere else with people using old giant avatars and perceptions change.  I shouldn't have to look like a 30 year old, or giant, or ugly just so people don't give me problems.

The larger picture tells the story, too. The more profile links to "hello daddy" venues or "toys for kids" stores and the like, the more likely people using "grey zone" avis will get booted.

Edited May 4 by Vivienne Schell

[Alwin Alcott]

17 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Nevermind

ì do  

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'm not talking a BoM layer skin tattoo or universal layer.  The old time system skin which becomes BoM when you are wearing a mesh body.  I use the system layer skin from Velour and not their tattoo option.  When I arrive somewhere and not one dang thing rezzes aside from that ugly old system body, it's covered with my Velour skin.  If it had modesty panels on it, you'd see those as well.  

But it's the same baking operation, isn't it? The same textures bake in the same stacking order and present all at once, whether it's on a BOM mesh or the system body, right? So if you wore an alpha mask to cover the area where the modesty panels go, that would be alpha'd-out on the system body the same as on the mesh, wouldn't it? What am I missing here?

(I haven't quite caught up, so sorry if this is irrelevant at this point. I stepped away for an hour and… we've been busy, haven't we? 😛 )

[Wincil]

41 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The reason "late teen" ages are discussed so much is because that is really the grey area in all of this.

It is almost always very obvious if someone is obvious.  However for anyone playing a child 15-17, it can be hard to distinguish them from folks playing an 18 yr old.  Where the person playing the 15-17 yr old must be in compliance of the child avatar policy, someone playing an 18 yr does not need to be in compliance with that policy.

 

I don't really see how there's a really a grey area there it wouldn't be obvious if they aren't playing that is playing a child 15-17 and how can it be be hard to distinguish them from folks playing an 18 year old? that's like saying that short adults shouldn't be able to enjoy things because they're short and that's discrimination all bodies are different We all have different genetics if everyone was the same then it would be boring. 

Edited May 4 by Wincil

[Rolig Loon]

Whew!  Two hours of reading and I have finally caught up to where this thread was before I went to bed last night. I'd stop reading, but every once in a while someone says something new and thoughtful.  

It looks to me as if the same 15-20 people are arguing the same points in circles and losing patience with each other.  Given the length of the thread and its rate of growth, it's no wonder that people have given up on scrolling back to see what was typed more than an hour ago.

Sadly, the thread is turning into the sort of conversation I used to have with my mother when she was well into dementia ("Yes, mom, we just talked about that, remember?")  I say "sadly" because I doubt that anyone in Governance is going to have time on Monday morning to wade through the thread and find the handful of good, genuine questions that a few people have raised.

[Aya Sweetheart]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

People might want to be careful as well as to what their Favs are on their f-list.  Parent and Child Play?  Kind of a red flag to me.

This is true, as people often don't understand the details... so thanks.  I'll make sure to clearly write my own descriptions for things that people could misunderstand

[Theresa Ravenheart]

I submitted this to the Community Roundtable form on May 20th. If your avatar(s) fit into these categories: cartoons, kemono bodies, anime heads, adults in DD/lg or MD/lg dynamics, adults who enjoy dressing kawaii or youthful, individuals who use pet names like Daddy, Mommy, or babygirl, feral humanoids and animals, MLP, or any other adult avatar that could be questioned as "child-like", I recommend that you also submit inquiries to the form regarding how this might affect you, so we can receive clear answers.

While I personally do not use child/teen avatars or associate with them, I do empathize with how this situation may impact them, potentially resulting in the loss of their identities and a significant portion of their attire and appearance.

Form for questions: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdXUzASY9JoiU5tMraxP9LPvmllUS2TlW3jAXIAl49w2VSV2A/viewform

My question to LL:
My inquiry pertains to the recent updates on policies regarding Child Avatar and age***y. How will this affect consenting adults who utilize adult avatars but affectionately refer to each other using terms such as Papi, Mami, Daddy, Mommy, babygirl, or babyboy, either due to their BDSM dynamic or simply as endearing pet names? It seems that even though they are adults and behave accordingly, there might be a concern of them being identified as child-like based on subjective criteria. As stated in the new terms "In some cases there may be an element of subjectivity as to whether an avatar (or other image) appears to be a minor. Objective factors which will be used to decide include whether an avatar has childlike facial features, is child-sized, has clothing or accessories generally associated with children, and whether, based on the circumstances, an avatar is speaking or acting like a child ("My Mommy says...")".

• Given that we present ourselves as adults, utilizing adult avatars with adult features and behaviors, will there be repercussions for using common pet names?
• Additionally, what about adults who incorporate items like pacifiers or diapers into their avatar aesthetics for various personal reasons—would this be considered inappropriate due to its association with child-like attributes?
• Childlike can be a lot of things, holding a teddy bear, wearing roller-skates, dressing kawaii and girly, having your hair in pigtails, and on an on. Defining "childlike" in the context of adult avatars would greatly assist in understanding where boundaries lie.
• Furthermore, how will these policies impact adult users who use feral avatars that may possess genitalia?
  • Determining the age of a feral animal avatar, such as a dog, horse, cat, or dragon, presents its own challenges.
• Consider the communities centered around My Little Pony (MLP) adult avatars. While MLP may be perceived as childlike, what about adults who utilize these avatars in adult-oriented settings, comporting themselves as adults? They inhabit cartoon avatars but exhibit adult behaviors. 
• The same applies to communities revolving around Sonic Mobian, Kemono, Anime, and other adult cartoon avatars.

Establishing clear guidelines is essential to prevent misunderstandings. Subjectivity in judgments risks account penalties, hence the necessity for precise and measurable regulations.

Additionally, it would be beneficial for Linden Lab to adopt clear guidelines, akin to those of IMVU, regarding modesty coverage for child and teen avatars. These rules should be unambiguous and easily applicable to prevent any ambiguities: https://create.imvu.com/articles/classic/understanding-minimum-coverage-guidelines/#:~:text=To accurately test the coverage,not sheer or transparent

Edited May 4 by Theresa Ravenheart

[Innula Zenovka]

8 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

I guess you haven't met the haters that think anything under 6 foot or fat or doesn't have giant thighs, butt, and boobs are kids.  There are a lot of stupid people out there that have really bad perception.  Also in a gray area some people don't get it, I've had creeps messaging me asking if I can get a bit younger... I'd rather make it clear I am an adult avatar always and forever and have them leave me alone... it only takes the 1 or 2 to cause issues even if 99% of people think things are fine.  I can be in one area and look 20+ then go somewhere else with people using old giant avatars and perceptions change.  I shouldn't have to look like a 30 year old, or giant, or ugly just so people don't give me problems.

My avatars have always been on the short side, slim, and without exaggerated thigh, boobs and butt, and no one has ever questioned whether or not I'm supposed to be over 18.

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But it's the same baking operation, isn't it? The same textures bake in the same stacking order and present all at once, whether it's on a BOM mesh or the system body, right? So if you wore an alpha mask to cover the area where the modesty panels go, that would be alpha'd-out on the system body the same as on the mesh, wouldn't it? What am I missing here?

(I haven't quite caught up, so sorry if this is irrelevant at this point. I stepped away for an hour and… we've been busy, haven't we? 😛 )

I haven't actually tested whether the alpha is include on the system body.  All I know is when I tp in somewhere and no one's mesh body has arrived, I see the system body with the system skin.  I'll pay more attention next time as to whether the alphas work

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But it's the same baking operation, isn't it? The same textures bake in the same stacking order and present all at once, whether it's on a BOM mesh or the system body, right? So if you wore an alpha mask to cover the area where the modesty panels go, that would be alpha'd-out on the system body the same as on the mesh, wouldn't it? What am I missing here?

The more that I go over this in my mind, what you describe is how I thought it worked.  Wearing an alpha "layer" would all get baked along with skin, tattoo layers, undie layers, clothing layers, and universal layers.  So there should never be any way for the person to rez only showing their old system skin if they have other 'layers' on also.  ???