So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Right, to recap (maybe for my own benefit) that's what Scylla and I are both trying to "solve" with some revision to those rules as written. She suggested (as I understood it) that M would change to forbid public nudity. I suggested instead that properly dressed child avatars could be in the presence of public nudity as long as there was no shared activity. Then (I think) both proposals got wedged on the prospect of those child avatars encountering sudden private nudity. At the moment, I'm not seeing a clear path to not sending the child avatar abruptly away from that scene.

LL do not want child avatars anywhere near nudity. They don't want those images. I fear it is very much going to be that we're second class citizens. 

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Conssider the source.

The rumours that "LL are hunting down fembois and culling them like baby seals, it must be true, II heard it from somebody on reddit who said they saw it on farcebork, who said they saw it on 4chan from a guy who claimed he was banned for being one and that he didn't do anything wrong ever" were brought to you here on thiss forum by?

 

Do you believe LL are banning people for wearing "foreign makeup" or "geisha outfits" too ?

Somebody is scaremongering, hoping to drive people from SL to the openIPtheft Hyperfail grid.

 

Hi. I'm one of the moderators for the secondlife subreddit.

It's not a rumor.

We regularly get people posting to the sub stating that they have been banned and are desperately seeking help. They have found themselves cut off from their entire social graph, support network and often lost multiple accounts. Most of these posts never get published because the OP is raw and distraught, names names, includes personal information or other things we can't allow. We are unable to offer any assistance beyond telling them to file a support ticket, and are unwilling to subject the poster to a dog-pile from people who's only reaction is going to be to laugh and rub it in.

They are all from femboy / gender non conforming / trans & LGBTQ+ accounts. Rarely do they self identify as a child avatar. Some have even had a pretty decent pair of boobs.

This is not scaremongering. This is our lived reality as moderators and why we have gone to considerable lengths to write scripted moderation rules to catch these posts.

Why do they come to reddit? Because they are banned from here and have no idea what to do next.

We have a bingo card. The more boxes you can tick, the more at risk you are. Good Luck!

Now you can call these people liars if you like, but in years of moderation, it's somewhat odd we hear the same exact "lie" over and over again.

You can bet we are going to be bringing this up at the newly restarted governance office hours.

 

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

If it requires a sim restart that is good, then.    While it may make that part of the huds protection feature obsolete, it is only a line of code and a timer event.   No hard or mighty coding loss there.  

i'm not so sure it needs a restart, it's not marked as so in the Estate panel. The button just says "apply", the means mostly instant change.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I suggested instead that properly dressed child avatars could be in the presence of public nudity as long as there was no shared activity

Like that "loophole" wouldn't get abused before the ink was dry on the new ToS.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Right. But I'm trying to understand what happens under those circumstances if, instead, public nudity were forbidden on M-rated land. Wouldn't a dance club be private, so that could still happen?

(It's very possible I've misunderstood the proposal.)

Yes, sorry, I think I misunderstood you.

Yes, it could. Any exceptions -- such as burlesque shows, skin stores, etc. -- that were carved out as exceptions would be, I guess, understood as being off limits to child avatars.

Unless perhaps they explicitly stated in the parcel profile that they didn't permit nudity?

 

[Madi Melodious]

27 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The language you suggest isn't just clunky, but also dangerously ambiguous. Would a child avatar at a club where there was no nudity be expected to leave if one of the dancers decided to go topless, because they were "engaging or participating in a common activity," i.e., dancing? Not trying to be critical, but this leaves as many questions unanswered as it addresses.

 

omg ... we got to change the tos back, there no way we can proceed with it this way.  We been talking about modesty layers and who has rights to be nuddy on public land but have overlook the most horrible aspect of this change.  

Now we will all be subject someone saying "would you behave, there are children here."    nope. can't have it.  🤣

[Scylla Rhiadra]

19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What about changing clothes, for example after purchasing new clothes?

/me snorts (attractively) at the idea that people who live on "G" rated regions go to a moderate or adult sandbox to change or demo clothing.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Exactly. This would be logical and consistent, and would simultaneously mean that child avis were safe in public areas of M rated regions.

Ah, but what will the poor strip clubs and nude beaches do?

😆 

[Theresa Tennyson]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Hi. I'm one of the moderators for the secondlife subreddit.

It's not a rumor.

We regularly get people posting to the sub stating that they have been banned and are desperately seeking help. They have found themselves cut off from their entire social graph, support network and often lost multiple accounts. Most of these posts never get published because the OP is raw and distraught, names names, includes personal information or other things we can't allow. We are unable to offer any assistance beyond telling them to file a support ticket, and are unwilling to subject the poster to a dog-pile from people who's only reaction is going to be to laugh and rub it in.

They are all from femboy / gender non conforming / trans & LGBTQ+ accounts. Rarely do they self identify as a child avatar. Some have even had a pretty decent pair of boobs.

This is not scaremongering. This is our lived reality as moderators and why we have gone to considerable lengths to write scripted moderation rules to catch these posts.

Why do they come to reddit? Because they are banned from here and have no idea what to do next.

We have a bingo card. The more boxes you can tick, the more at risk you are. Good Luck!

Now you can call these people liars if you like, but in years of moderation, it's somewhat odd we hear the same exact "lie" over and over again.

You can bet we are going to be bringing this up at the newly restarted governance office hours.

 

There's another thing they've got in common - they were all doing what they were doing in a location where there were others who were inclined to send an abuse report. Several of those things are on the "bad idea" list in the AP policy, too.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Ah, but what will the poor strip clubs and nude beaches do?

😆

Well, on Saturdays, my sky platform is frequently a kind of "strip club," as I demo weekend sales items!

(Just not a very interesting strip club!)

As I suggested above somewhere (God this moves fast!), they carve out exemptions for such places, with the additional understanding that child avatars not be permitted in such places, even when they are located in "M." The danger, of course, is that a list of exemptions could get very long and unwieldy.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

I prefer Dark-skinned American, instead of black but that's just me. I know people will continue to say black or white,

to me, I'm just an American with brown skin.

gee, why not just be American?

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Chery Amore said:

Okay but what about all the clothing that people wear that is sheer.. some level of sheer. Showing some nip. 

Then there are the skirts that for some reason are ribbons above the waist now.. with sheer undies. 

Am I the only one that sees women all over the place wearing these at fashion events?  I know I wear the sheer stuff myself and try to be a little more covered up in moderate areas when I remember to be. 

Is this type of dress going to be just not allowed anymore for adults on moderate land too.. or just thought of as in bad taste by some as it is now?

I'll wear some sheer clothing now and then.  If I know I'm going to a Moderate region, I'll slap on some BoM undies.  If I'm planning to head to an adult club, I can slip them off.  I don't have a problem changing back and forth to be a bit.more modest when appropriate.  Some moderate clubs don't mind if it all shows.  Fogbound has a very casual dress code on Moderate.  

People just don't seem to take others into consideration at all.  Just because you can, doesn't mean you should do.something.  Read the rules and the room.  

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

44 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I take your point about disruption, I guess, but I'd underline your own question: how important in practice is the provision for public nudity in Moderate regions?

 

I would say to you then, how many times do you think a child avatar will run into someone being naked on a beach in M Rated sims?

Why would we change a whole rule on the off chance that a child might want to sunbath at a beach on the very day we go there to be topless.

If a child avatar is prone to go to beaches then it's very simple to have an avatar ready as an adult wearing a swimsuit in their outfits folder.  Replace all, boom you are an adult and not breaking the TOS. Then when the topless avatar leaves they can switch back.  Not hard to switch at all in a matter of seconds.  Even less likely someone would AR them that would pass governance as a breach in the time it took them to change. 

To answer your question, it's more important, in practice that we allow nudity on beaches in a M rated region than it is to protect the child avatar from being there while adults are naked.

 

Edited May 6 by Kathlen Onyx

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As I understand it, currently you get logged in at a safe hub matching the highest maturity level you have set in your preferences. 

phew, thats good to know 😂

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Why? Because a handful of dedicated Child Avi Pilots whine? Consider that the more these few guys whine and generate a huge wave: Linden Lab is a commercial company, not a psychotherapist center for Child Avatar Pilots. In which direction, do you think, they will move if they feel forced to decide on that?

I don't think it's necessary to restrict nudity to "behind closed doors" on Moderate land, but the purpose would be to protect Second Life's image and avoid potential legal problems around visual representation of sketchy situations. 

I don't think it would hurt SL to restrict nudity to "behind closed doors" either, especially if LL would add more regions to Zindra and Horizons.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

gee, why not just be American?

I am just a Canadian, the colour of my skin is irrelevant.  What is relevant, is the content of my character. This is one of the big reasons, we have a division all over the western world. 

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

gee, why not just be American?

Did you not read what I said? "To me, I'm just an American with brown skin."

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

Did you not read what I said? "To me, I'm just an American with brown skin."

But why is the colour of your skin relevant? I am just asking, as I truly want to know your reasoning. 

[sirhc DeSantis]

13 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

omg ... we got to change the tos back, there no way we can proceed with it this way.  We been talking about modesty layers and who has rights to be nuddy on public land but have overlook the most horrible aspect of this change.  

Now we will all be subject someone saying "would you behave, there are children here."    nope. can't have it.  🤣

Sigh. Every time I start to have sympathy someone comes up with a clanger like this.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Vivienne Schell said:

If they remove nudity from M. they can remove M. Or they remove Child Avis from M. The entire construction is an attempt to avoid both of these options for some reasons. Careful with what you wish for.

G no nudity anywhere

M nudity only on private parcels with proper controls set

A nudity everywhere

makes sence to me 😁

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

/me snorts (attractively) at the idea that people who live on "G" rated regions go to a moderate or adult sandbox to change or demo clothing.

 

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

But why is the colour of your skin relevant? I am just asking, as I truly want to know your reasoning. 

Because skin color was brought up and someone said they don't hate black people. I said "I prefer dark skin"

and I also said "to me, I'm just an american with brown skin." I don't understand.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

Because skin color was brought up and someone said they don't hate black people. I said "I prefer dark skin"

and I also said "to me, I'm just an american with brown skin." I don't understand.

I was just being inquisitive. ♥

[Wincil]

Imagine being falsely banned for ***play that would suck this has happened to those who have non of that stuff before.(Whoever keeps saying that I sound like a kid or a child I do not I am a adult in real life.)    

Edited May 6 by Wincil
Typo

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

I would say to you then, how many times do you think a child avatar will run into someone being naked on a beach in M Rated sims?

I have no idea! But this isn't just about beaches: M rated clubs, for instance, can also feature occasional nudity, burlesque, etc.

3 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Why would we change a whole rule on the off chance that a child might want to sunbath at a beach on the very day we go there to be topless.

They are already changing whole rules. It's no longer a "why," it's "how."