What if houses were... free?

[Randy Pole]

If LL were to give each new resident a free home (let's say a 512 plot with a camper van) then they would be out of business in not very long.

If people have a free home what is the incentive of paying for a home? What's the incentive for visiting a creator and buying content for your free home?

You can't have everything for free as the system would break down because there is no money to pay the bills.

Lots of places do allow group members to set their home to group land though.

[QuietEventide]

Yes, in reality when you have a "home", you are paying for the server space that the home takes up.
It's not free to run big servers for online virtual worlds.

I rent a place sometimes from one of the big landlords.
Usually I have the place up for a month or two, maybe three months.
Then I take it down again until I feel like rebuilding next time.
I don't really want to sign up for a "pro" account and get locked into long-term "agreements".
It works better for me to just rent for a bit, do my little scenes and then take a step back again. But we're all different, of course. 

Think I spent like 10-20 dollars-ish per month for the time I have it, and no strings attached really.
Works well on a low budget. Most often I get a 2048sqm which is enough for what I want.
10-20 USD is less than having a meal out - and the Lindens have to make money somehow.

Edited October 18, 2023 by QuietEventide

[Qie Niangao]

21 hours ago, bateliii said:

I don't know how SL is different from other virtual worlds out there. But there are games like VRchat that gives the player an option of a house to return to.

If somebody knows about these games like VRchat, I'm curious: Does the free house to which the player can return have a persistent location in the virtual world that's present even when the "owner" is logged-off? It seems plausible that an ephemeral "address" to which a player can return whenever they want could be a part of free-to-play worlds, where that address only needs to be populated when the player is actively in-world. But if instead it continuously "takes up space" in the geometry of the virtual world, it would be quite impractical—not because of cost, particularly, but because of vacant sprawl, leaving the world's population vanishingly sparse.

Even if they're ephemeral, I'd wonder what interaction model they're intended to support. I mean, these platforms all only make sense as opportunities for some choice of social engagement (even if just "tour this cool site I made for you")—otherwise just make a world on a thumb drive and stare at it offline. Is it really more conducive to vibrant social interactions to entitle every user to their own private house right from the start?

(That's all distinct from "changing rooms" or other short term privacy spots. I have some history scripting for a very early installation of such things, long before "parcel privacy" was even an option, among other land management features that came later. Back then it was a real labor-intensive challenge to keep griefing under control, but some users really did seem to appreciate access to the spaces even for just a few minutes.)

[BillFletcher]

13 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Before they upped the price of premium, I was getting more back in stipend than what my premium would cost me doing it annually. I think it jumped to 20 more a year or something..

I had it figured out at the time at how much it would have cost me to buy those lindens.. Now lindens cost more to buy, so it's pretty close again, since I get 400 a week..

So I get a linden home plus they give me lindens every week that save me in buying lindens, so that knocks the cost of my premium membership way down and a house to boot.  hehehe

 

There are free houses in SL, but the land is really what costs..

 

Yes you get a great deal with premium I am not going to deny that, but some people can't justify spending real money in SL at all, for those people telling them premium is a great deal doesn't help them. If they are struggling to keep the rent paid and food on the table, telling them to go premium is a little like telling them they should eat cake. Some people might be able to afford it, but don't want to have to explain to someone else what that charge is on the credit card bill. When I hear someone say they need something to be free, I assume they mean they cannot, for one reason or another spend any real money to get it.

Edited October 18, 2023 by BillFletcher
fixed a typo

[PheebyKatz]

27 minutes ago, BillFletcher said:

Yes you get a great deal with premium I am not going to deny that, but some people can't justify spending real money in SL at all, for those people telling them premium is a great deal doesn't help them. If they are struggling to keep the rent paid and food on the table, telling them to go premium is a little like telling them they should eat cake. Some people might be able to afford it, but don't want to have to explain to someone else what that charge is on the credit card bill. When I hear someone say they need something to be free, I assume they mean they cannot, for one reason or another spend any real money to get it.

There is this, true. It's easy to forget just how many people find their escape in SL and just can't, for one reason or another, spend real money on it. It saddens me to think of how many people are even treated differently because of it.

LL might not be able to provide free land to every account (or even really want to, for various very obvious reasons), But it still kinda sucks that a person's options are limited to building in sandboxes and temp-rezzing skyboxes and stuff to feel like they have their own place for a little while.

There's always cooperative living though, I mean, making friends with people who welcome you to live at their place is simple enough usually, and you know they can't possibly be home all the time, so one can even have a sense of privacy now and then, as far as that goes in SL.

And then, there's ways to make enough to rent one's own little parcel, if you try.

My best option has always been doing volunteer work, and being allowed to set my home spot wherever I was helping to build, and stuff. I'm allowed to have a little house and my own spot on my home sim I volunteer at, so sometimes I build myself one.

Edited October 18, 2023 by PheebyKatz

[AmeliaJ08]

3 hours ago, North Pole said:

If LL were to give each new resident a free home (let's say a 512 plot with a camper van) then they would be out of business in not very long.

If people have a free home what is the incentive of paying for a home? What's the incentive for visiting a creator and buying content for your free home?

You can't have everything for free as the system would break down because there is no money to pay the bills.

Lots of places do allow group members to set their home to group land though.

What actually pays the bills at LL though? I mean none of us know but... Well, given the things people obviously spend money on in SL I would guess the bulk of income comes from Linden dollar conversion fees and marketplace commission?

Land is obviously profitable too of course, the price is incredibly high and always has been. I would also guess premium subscriptions are a good chunk of their income but given everything else going on and the massive scale of it all I would guess this is probably not their primary source of revenue. I could be very wrong.

To this end I'm not sure we could say that giving every user a 512 would put them out of business, we simply don't know that and can only really make guesses based on the economic activity we do see.

If I had to make one confident prediction though I'd say given the prices involved and the relative cheapness of actually providing the product the big money spinner at LL would be full regions with their sky high maintenance fees and associated bump in membership tier, that is basically printing money given how cheap data center resources are particularly since the move to AWS.

I realize your argument is also that nobody would buy these money spinning products if they had 512 of their own but I'm not sure that is the case. That assumes people want to actually build the places they visit (or even could given the huge constraints of such a small, low prim parcel) and that isn't really how people behave in SL. People want to visit large sims, see impressive things, attend busy clubs etc. Things you can't do on a small residential parcel even if you did possess the skill/determination to build your own world.

Edited October 18, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[JeromFranzic]

3 hours ago, North Pole said:

If LL were to give each new resident a free home (let's say a 512 plot with a camper van) then they would be out of business in not very long.

If people have a free home what is the incentive of paying for a home? What's the incentive for visiting a creator and buying content for your free home?

You can't have everything for free as the system would break down because there is no money to pay the bills.

Lots of places do allow group members to set their home to group land though.

If this is what anyone wants... open a few accounts at the Open Sim hypergrids! Still, many hypergrid owners push for donations to keep servers running. I donate a few USD to my favorite HG's every month. Basically the same model as public broadcasting, free to watch/listen but dependent on viewer donations to stay in business.

[Love Zhaoying]

Houses ARE free if you get a Premium account (which is not free).

[Theresa Tennyson]

50 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

What actually pays the bills at LL though? I mean none of us know but... Well, given the things people obviously spend money on in SL I would guess the bulk of income comes from Linden dollar conversion fees and marketplace commission?

Land is obviously profitable too of course, the price is incredibly high and always has been. I would also guess premium subscriptions are a good chunk of their income but given everything else going on and the massive scale of it all I would guess this is probably not their primary source of revenue. I could be very wrong.

My understanding is that the vast majority of income is from land, and that conversion fees, marketplace commission, etc. were increased to allow land prices to be lowered (which they have been.) 

[BillFletcher]

55 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

What actually pays the bills at LL though?

Ultimately the bills get paid because people come to SL and spend money. When people take out their credit card and use it to pay money to Linden Lab. So then it might seem that free accounts do not contribute to this in any way, however this isn't true. One of the biggest complaints people seem to have is that places are empty, there is no one here. If there were no free accounts most of the people who have them would simply not be able to come to SL, which would mean even less people and SL would have less appeal to those who do pay. Then there are those, who have mentioned people who find ways to finance their SL from within, these people provide some service for which others pay for, creating reasons for people to spend money to get lindens, that money adds to the Lab's profits. Some people seem to have the attitude that those without paid accounts are some sort of burden in SL, but this just isn't true.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, BillFletcher said:

Yes you get a great deal with premium I am not going to deny that, but some people can't justify spending real money in SL at all, for those people telling them premium is a great deal doesn't help them. If they are struggling to keep the rent paid and food on the table, telling them to go premium is a little like telling them they should eat cake. Some people might be able to afford it, but don't want to have to explain to someone else what that charge is on the credit card bill. When I hear someone say they need something to be free, I assume they mean they cannot, for one reason or another spend any real money to get it.

I didn't tell anyone to go premium.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

1 hour ago, BillFletcher said:

Yes you get a great deal with premium I am not going to deny that, but some people can't justify spending real money in SL at all, for those people telling them premium is a great deal doesn't help them. If they are struggling to keep the rent paid and food on the table, telling them to go premium is a little like telling them they should eat cake. Some people might be able to afford it, but don't want to have to explain to someone else what that charge is on the credit card bill. When I hear someone say they need something to be free, I assume they mean they cannot, for one reason or another spend any real money to get it.

I didn't tell anyone to go premium.

Just in case - I suggested it as the "standard option"..I did not "tell" anyone either. 🙂

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, BillFletcher said:

Yes you get a great deal with premium I am not going to deny that, but some people can't justify spending real money in SL at all, for those people telling them premium is a great deal doesn't help them. If they are struggling to keep the rent paid and food on the table, telling them to go premium is a little like telling them they should eat cake. Some people might be able to afford it, but don't want to have to explain to someone else what that charge is on the credit card bill. When I hear someone say they need something to be free, I assume they mean they cannot, for one reason or another spend any real money to get it.

I think the problem is more to be that since the Lab banned Linden $ resellers, that for some percentage of residents it is difficult to buy L$. Especially now that they have added the 10% service charge as well as currency fees and credit card charges. If I had for example a well to do Creator living next door where I could just give them some of my spare change to get the equivalent in Lindens, I likely would have have had the monies to at least rent a little place and buy some clothing back when times were tough for me personally. Not everyone is able to get a credit card and though there are a limited amount of other options, they are often fraught with their own problems.

If it was easier to purchase L$ or purchase Premium, more people would do so. 

[Liaa Nova]

36 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I think the problem is more to be that since the Lab banned Linden $ resellers, that for some percentage of residents it is difficult to buy L$. Especially now that they have added the 10% service charge as well as currency fees and credit card charges. If I had for example a well to do Creator living next door where I could just give them some of my spare change to get the equivalent in Lindens, I likely would have have had the monies to at least rent a little place and buy some clothing back when times were tough for me personally. Not everyone is able to get a credit card and though there are a limited amount of other options, they are often fraught with their own problems.

If it was easier to purchase L$ or purchase Premium, more people would do so. 

Just thought I'd mention a credit card isn't needed, only a debit card x

[AzureWaves]

People can also pay with a prepaid gift card. Spending money in Second Life isn't hard, even if for some reason you have no bank account, no Paypal, even no money. Your friends can gift you a prepaid gift card code or even ask Second Life to buy premium for you, so you can have a house.

[Love Zhaoying]

Not sure it was mentioned yet, but there's also "squatting"..

Just find an unused home that allows access and use it. (You won't probably be able to rez things.)

You'll be fine until / unless the owner actually comes along.

 

[Sparkle Bunny]

Way back in the mists of time, everyone got land with their accounts. They mostly sold it to land barons, because that's what happens if you give people stuff they can resell.

Nowadays, of course, there are far too many accounts to give everybody a free house. It would be a colossal waste of resources, given that the vast majority never log in.

But it's OK because you still have plenty of options. Previously mentioned; sandboxes, newbie groups, squatting. Nearly all GTFO hubs allow you to rez stuff temporaily, so you can always live out of your car.  A couple of my alts have their home position set to a favourite store. Or get yourself adopted by a wealthy family, if you can handle the drama.

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Liaa Nova said:

Just thought I'd mention a credit card isn't needed, only a debit card x

Could be though back a few years ago when I last tried it, Canadian banks resisted allowing the use of a debit card for cross border purchases. 

[Rat Luv]

I used to love making my own skyboxes 🤩 You can do pretty much anything you want with them...have arcade games flashing in the living room, or a crashed plane sticking out of the side, or live in a floating 20-floor cake with a fireman's pole connecting the rooms...anything you like! You can make so many changes with texture and brightness. 

I was lucky, I met some builders and scripters who let me 'live' on their land for free, so I got to rez objects and terraform bits of the sim. But before that, I always used public sandboxes or...

55 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Not sure it was mentioned yet, but there's also "squatting"..

😈 I think people don't like this, but I have done it in the past...it was surprising how many people pay for land, and leave rez rights on, but hardly ever log in   There aren't as many opportunities now as there used to be, but if you TP around enough, you will still find abandoned land with rez rights. Just make sure you are ready to grab your stuff at short notice and save copies of everything you make! Also, if someone else finds the place and decides to put up massive ad boards, or floods it with griefer cubes, you can't really do anything about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  (PS - if SL-squatting is against TOS, I'm just joking...I never did it, and neither should you ) 

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Not sure it was mentioned yet, but there's also "squatting"..

😈 I think people don't like this, but I have done it in the past...it was surprising how many people pay for land, and leave rez rights on, but hardly ever log in   There aren't as many opportunities now as there used to be, but if you TP around enough, you will still find abandoned land with rez rights. Just make sure you are ready to grab your stuff at short notice and save copies of everything you make! Also, if someone else finds the place and decides to put up massive ad boards, or floods it with griefer cubes, you can't really do anything about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  (PS - if SL-squatting is against TOS, I'm just joking...I never did it, and neither should you ) 

I honestly don't think it's against TOS, so long as you aren't griefing. Because, if someone leaves their land set to "public use" then..it's for "public use".

[BillFletcher]

2 hours ago, Liaa Nova said:

Just thought I'd mention a credit card isn't needed, only a debit card x

Whatever card you use it needs to have your name attached to it in some way. If you buy a gift card at a store and try to use that it won't work, it did at one time. When i started with SL I was working as a pizza delivery guy and I would sometimes take some of my tip money, but a gift card and use it to but lindens, but they changed it so I couldn't do that anymore.

[Katherine Heartsong]

3 hours ago, Rat Luv said:

I never did it, and neither should you 

I always say that about graffiti.

I did once stand in a group of kids though behind a principal who was both chastising whoever must have sprayed the school wall, but also praising whoever it might have been for their amazing artistry.

Parents, this is how kids get mixed messages.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong

[Paul Hexem]

On 10/17/2023 at 10:08 AM, JeromFranzic said:

It costs major $$$$ to run SL. 

At least, they'd like us to think that based on what they charge for land.

[Ceka Cianci]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just in case - I suggested it as the "standard option"..I did not "tell" anyone either. 🙂

IKR? hehehe

 

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

At least, they'd like us to think that based on what they charge for land.

IKR? How dare they make a profit off our gaming.