Ban lines - a proposal

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

If you had been criticizing just the ban lines that would have been fine. That's not what you did. You were criticizing the people that use them.

 

If it weren't people using ban lines, there would be no ban lines up.
Ban lines itself don't hurt. They indicate: leave me and my land alone, but
loosing ones car or boat during a five sim trip twice however does, because some people are a bit over protective at times about their land IMHO.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[AmeliaJ08]

40 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

I reread the OP to confirm that this thread is about banline visibility. This thread has  numerous side trips into aspects of security in Second Life... but the fact is, what we have is not likely to change (for the duration of this platform).

Putting on my sailor cap (or aviator goggles) and speaking for our communities, we are trying to AVOID (that is, not enter) parcels where the owner does not want anyone to enter. ANY visual clues that can aid this effort are appreciated.

Ban lines clearly indicated on the map would be useful wouldn't it?

[Kathlen Onyx]

6 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

You don't know me, you don't automatically know my timezone, or what shift rota I'm on at work, or how long I spend commuting to and from work, or what my sleep cycle is like...

 

You have NO EFFING CLUE, when or if I will log in.

 

My time in SL is limited by the requirements of FirstLife, so one evening you and a bunch of your equally over entitled toxic anti privacy griefing habitual repeat offender friends, decide to criminal trespass in my home with intent to to commit ToS violating Harassment against the property owner, by having a party in my house.

Then I log in to try and enjoy my limited SL window for that evening, and THEN I have to waste my time manually punt kicking the trash out of my living room and manually adding them to the ban list so they NEVER come back, and manually filing Abuse Reports against all of them when they spam my IM box to whine about how unfriendly I am to home invading criminals

Or, there is plaan B, a Zero Second Punt-Kick and Auto Ban Security Orb, with private group only  banlines as a clear warning that you are NOT WELCOME IN MY HOME AT ANY TIME.

 

When my SL housemates and I bought the parcel, direct off LL, we knew it was moderate, and we knew there was an Official Behind Closed Doors policy, so we looked it up, and tried to follow it to a reasonable level.

 

Stuff in the house, house on a platform several kilometers up, banlines set to an invite only group, no sound or view from outside, we didn't install an orb.

 

And what did we get for our respect for the Officiial Rules? A CONSTANT stream of abuse from people like you.

How dare we have banlines, how dare we live in the sky, how dare we restrict access to our land to ourselves and our friends, how dare we not volunteer to operate a Privacy Hating Nomadic ToS Violator friendly public amusement park at our own expense.

 

Then we get threads like this one, where people rant on about "but a subcontractor said there are different rules in Bellicosia, so the REAL Rules on Mainland set by the subcontractors Employers don't apply" and other equally worthless garbage because they can't be bothered to look for the rules, and assume a subcontractor out ranks his Employer because it suits their home invader agenda.

 

But mostly what we get is , for lack of a better term, "people" demanding that they should have more rights on land we pay for than we do.

 

You want MY land that I pay for to be a public amusement park, BUY IT FROM ME, and you can do what you damn well want with it.

 

Asking price is enough to let me buy a replacement parcel, on Zindra, where there will never be any Bellicosian "Connect the continents" anti-Mainlander invasion route, and compensate me for the trouble of having to tear down my home, and start over elsewhere, plus a variable surcharge dependent on how much of a toxic anti-privacy nomad the buyer is.

Opening bids on my almost worthless 4400 m patch of M rated nowhere, L$440,000. That sounds about fair to me.

 

And as for the "people" who rant on and on and on and on about the "rights of the community" why is it their definition of community always seems to specifically include over entitled jerks who live on a different estate, and never seems to include the people who actually live on the land they community rights are being claimed for?

 

Hypocrites.

 

I wonder how these hypocritical people would whine if I claimed I had a right to click their Belli Mailboxes and derez their homes and rez a different selection because I didn't like the colour they had chosen, and said it offended the "community".

 

I'm out of this Toilet of a thread. Carry on discussing your Anti-Residential-Mainlander Fascist Reich to your hearts content, and how you DESERVE to be allowed to park your aircraft in peoples Living Rooms whenever you want.

Little harsh don't you think and really, really uncalled for.

[Casidy Silvercloud]

35 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Ban lines clearly indicated on the map would be useful wouldn't it?

If they showed up on the minimap it would help a lot. If they already do, I'm not sure how to turn that on. I always have minimap up.

I'm pretty sure that one of the driving forces with all of the different huds created for travelers is the lack of advanced notification that "hey, you can't be here". Those huds are really helpful in some areas especially if you're flying or sailing because some security devices extend further than they need to. Those huds make it much easier to avoid those areas or at least navigate them a bit better. Vehicles in sl can be tricky and sometimes do wtf they want. 

There's an edge by one of the big mainland (the peanut one) where 3 different sims meet. Those crossings can be a pain all on their own, but the worst part about that particular crossing is that you MUST cross right in this one particular corner on one of the sims, within this little jagged sort of triangle shape or all sorts of things go wrong. I don't know if the people who rent or own that area still use a security orb, but there was one there that had a zero second immediate removal. Aside from the zero second warning, the main problem with that one is that it didn't send you home. What it did was send you right back to the corner where the three sims meet, but right on the inside edge of that triangle instead of the outside edge where it's safe. Then you'd get stuck in a loop. It will usually remove you from your vehicle, possibly remove stuff from you and once it put me in a perpetual fall I couldn't get out of because the crash was taking forever.

Thankfully the minimap shows land boundaries nicely, so you can see that little shape while still moving, if you remember to turn them on. It's a bit more difficult to navigate with the full map up, but minimap, it's easier. It took me a few times of hitting that loop there on different occasions to figure out turning on land boundaries on the minimap would save me a lot of headaches. That's when I realized the triangle was there. 

[Fionalein]

14 minutes ago, Casidy Silvercloud said:

If they showed up on the minimap it would help a lot. If they already do, I'm not sure how to turn that on. I always have minimap up.

Unlike orbs they do?

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, Casidy Silvercloud said:

If they showed up on the minimap it would help a lot. If they already do, I'm not sure how to turn that on. I always have minimap up.

I'm pretty sure that one of the driving forces with all of the different huds created for travelers is the lack of advanced notification that "hey, you can't be here". Those huds are really helpful in some areas especially if you're flying or sailing because some security devices extend further than they need to. Those huds make it much easier to avoid those areas or at least navigate them a bit better. Vehicles in sl can be tricky and sometimes do wtf they want. 

There's an edge by one of the big mainland (the peanut one) where 3 different sims meet. Those crossings can be a pain all on their own, but the worst part about that particular crossing is that you MUST cross right in this one particular corner on one of the sims, within this little jagged sort of triangle shape or all sorts of things go wrong. I don't know if the people who rent or own that area still use a security orb, but there was one there that had a zero second immediate removal. Aside from the zero second warning, the main problem with that one is that it didn't send you home. What it did was send you right back to the corner where the three sims meet, but right on the inside edge of that triangle instead of the outside edge where it's safe. Then you'd get stuck in a loop. It will usually remove you from your vehicle, possibly remove stuff from you and once it put me in a perpetual fall I couldn't get out of because the crash was taking forever.

Thankfully the minimap shows land boundaries nicely, so you can see that little shape while still moving, if you remember to turn them on. It's a bit more difficult to navigate with the full map up, but minimap, it's easier. It took me a few times of hitting that loop there on different occasions to figure out turning on land boundaries on the minimap would save me a lot of headaches. That's when I realized the triangle was there. 

I had that happen to me once. Only way to fix it is to relog to another location.

I've also inadvertently caused it to happen to someone I had to ban and eject from my homestead. At the time, I wasn't aware that if you banned first and then ejected, well, I'm sorry but it was funny to watch. It took him a while to figure out he needed to relog.  The jerk did deserve it. 

It was a situation where ban lines were useless since the homestead was part of an estate. The homesteads were checkerboarded on the grid surrounded by water back then.

[diamond Marchant]

49 minutes ago, Casidy Silvercloud said:

If they showed up on the minimap it would help a lot. If they already do, I'm not sure how to turn that on.

In Firestrom, you can see parcels with banlines in pink if you turn on "Show ->Property Lines" after right clicking the mini-map.

However, the mini-map does not show the banlined parcel as pink until you also see the yellow banlines inworld. This occurs when you are approximately 8 meters from the parcel border. That's right, EIGHT meters. The video below demonstrates.

Edited August 11, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[Casidy Silvercloud]

38 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Unlike orbs they do?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I wish all security options, banlines or devices, showed on minimap. It would make things far less problematic for everyone, I think.

[Casidy Silvercloud]

5 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

However, the mini-map does not show the banlined parcel as pink until you also see the yellow banlines inworld. This occurs when you are approximately 8 meters from the parcel border. That's right, EIGHT meters. The video below demonstrates.

Oh, thank you for that info!

So really it's the same problem, not enough distance between the "don't go there" indicators and when you might potentially hit them, especially in any kind of vehicle.  I never realized they turned pink at all, just the white parcel boundary lines. Maybe I haven't paid close enough attention. I mostly use the minimap for navigating through channels, and around people when I go places. Some people get really mad if you accidentally bump them, lol. 

When last I ran into banlines they definitely didn't appear at 8m out, I would've seen them before I hit them. But that could just very well be one of those individual things like any other issue someone might run into with sl. Lag of some sort, not the most optimal pc specs, anything and everything that might be client side, or the fact that they sat right on a sim crossing even. Those all may contribute to why I don't see them until I come right up on them. It could just be a me issue, I definitely can't discount the possibility. I do know it's annoying though, lmao. Security devices are a bit less so for me, because most give me ample time to gtfo, lol. I like that people can have their security, so I totally understand it.

Is there a debug setting one can alter that makes it so banlines show up from a further distance? I know draw distance has no effect at all on them, but I haven't scoped the debug settings enough to know if maybe it's in there. I should look, maybe there is a setting. 

 

[Casidy Silvercloud]

53 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm sorry but it was funny to watch. It took him a while to figure out he needed to relog.  The jerk did deserve it.

Oh it IS hilarious, no doubt, especially when someone deserves it, lol. I was lmao at myself when  got stuck, I looked ridiculous and it was awesome. It's definitely not the first time. I love the sl quirks sometimes. 

I nearly always just relog back into plum or some other empty sandbox place when it happens, just in case. If I forget and log back in the same location and get stuck again, well, it's my own damn fault, lmao.  I laugh at myself, log out and change location lol. 

[KathrynLisbeth]

Since I am too lazy to figure out how to easy quote from other posts in other threads....   

From Coffee Pancake March 6, 2022 --

Putting parcel lines on the mini map was something we (Catznip) did, we do show parcels you can't enter in red, however .. the viewer isn't told about such restrictions till the very last moment.

So what is going on is  ...   

"The delay to show until the very last moment thing is a result of the Servers not passing that info until the very last moment?  ....  tied to the 'How they decided to fix showing banlines in the inworld view' thing?"  ie, AT THE LAST MOMENT  

 

So instead of actually reworking when and how the ban lines are sent to the viewer / user / customer to be displayed on screen.   

Lets just get the Customers to fight each other!    YAY!  THUNDERDOME!

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Little harsh don't you think and really, really uncalled for.

No, I don't thiknkits too harssh, and it's certainly called for, bearing in mind that I've sat reading these forums for several years, and seen people like me who actually try to abide by the Behind Closed Doors Policy, as delivered by LL employees, in the LL wiki, constantly referred to as:

"inconsiderate sh*ts", "paranoid fools*, "afraid we'll steal their prims", and many other slurs.

Told we should have our skyboxes deleted, and be confined in a private estate based concentration camp, until  we can be permanently exiled from SL to sansar (yes a well known forum poster actually suggested that several years ago.

Told that if our homes are not public facilities designed to entertain the nomads, they should be deleted, and we should be sent to spin-uup-on-demand solitary confinement instances in some off the grid anti mainlander gulag, AND made to pay double, once to pay for the gulag, and once to compensate LL for the loss of subscriptions/tier so they can afford to keep the abandoned land where our homes were free for nomads to enjoy (yes thats a real suggestion made several times in a 30+ page thread a few years ago)

Told we should have no right to decide who is welcome or not welcome in OUR homes.

Told we should have less rights on land WE pay for that people who dont pay for it.

Forced to listen to suggestions that the lsl script commands used in our only real defence, the zero second "destroy all enemies" orb should be nerfed so anti privacy griefer nomad trash can commit ToS violating harassment against us without fear of repercussions.

 

Not uncalled for at all.

 

MY suggestion for banlines?

All banlines visible from at LEAST 128 m, all banlined parcels shown in red on the mini-map, banlines to extend to the full Official LL Named ban overflight height (how high you have to fly to fly over a parcel that you are banned from by name)of 5km.

The addition of an lsl command to submit Abuse Reports, so orbs can auto AR repeat offending intruders for ToS violating harassment.

A 5km high wall around Bellicosia, with inward facing auto-sentry guns, the deletion of all "connect the continents" routes leading to Bellicosia, the BBB to be declared an Anti-Mainlander terrorist organisation, and all of it's self appointed unofficial officials banned from the Grid.

 

How loud will you whine when I suggest things to be done to you, that are EVERY bit as unpalatable as the things people like you keep demanding be done to ME.

 

[Ted McGregor]

[Kathlen Onyx]

22 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

How loud will you whine when I suggest things to be done to you, that are EVERY bit as unpalatable as the things people like you keep demanding be done to ME.

 

Chill out. You make it sound like it's the end of the world.  My god this is an entertainment platform not something to get that bugged out about.  I have no idea who you are (mostly likely an alt of someone I do know) but wigging out on someone because others "suggested" things years ago is not the right way to act on a forum.

[Rowan Amore]

I don't know.  I've had my mainland spot for 3 years.  I had 1 guy TP to me who I immediately ejected.  A couple have wandered into my garden while I was at home and wandered back out probably after getting the warning from my orb.  People fly over all the time which I only notice because my orb tells me.  My security is set to 30 sec and the land is open.  

Not one single soul has harassed me or told me I was horrible for having an orb.  Even when I had it set for 0 seconds for a brief period of time.  Not. One. Person. Ever.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

19 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Chill out. You make it sound like it's the end of the world.  My god this is an entertainment platform not something to get that bugged out about.  I have no idea who you are (mostly likely an alt of someone I do know) but wigging out on someone because others "suggested" things years ago is not the right way to act on a forum.

That's just it, it is "The end of the world".

That moronic idea to exile anyone who owned a skybox, how many paying customers would that have cost LL ? How quickkly would that have killed off Sl ?

 

if you Bellicossians keep demanding mainlanders have no rights on the land they pay for, they might stop paying, then LL closes SL down, End of the world.

And responding after, count them, 6 sodding pages of anti residential mainland property owner bs, isnt "wigging out", so reel your damn neck in, Bellicosian.

 

You dont like how mainland is, stay in Bellicosia, its the biggest damn continent by now, and all totally unrestricted, crash your planes into as many living rooms as your hearts desire, invade as many homes as you like, your perfect world., and stop trying to destroy my "entertainment" in a measly 4400 m plot that's NONE OF YOUR CONCERN.

[animats]

4 hours ago, Casidy Silvercloud said:

There's an edge by one of the big mainland (the peanut one) where 3 different sims meet. Those crossings can be a pain all on their own, but the worst part about that particular crossing is that you MUST cross right in this one particular corner on one of the sims, within this little jagged sort of triangle shape or all sorts of things go wrong. I don't know if the people who rent or own that area still use a security orb, but there was one there that had a zero second immediate removal. Aside from the zero second warning, the main problem with that one is that it didn't send you home. What it did was send you right back to the corner where the three sims meet, but right on the inside edge of that triangle instead of the outside edge where it's safe. Then you'd get stuck in a loop. It will usually remove you from your vehicle, possibly remove stuff from you and once it put me in a perpetual fall I couldn't get out of because the crash was taking forever.

There's a trouble spot on Robin Loop in Heterocera something like that. It's a road that crosses a region corner. One quadrant of the corner happens to be in a region that has no other Linden land ownership other than a tiny chunk of road. So there's not enough land impact capacity to drive through there. If you drive through it, you get an "insufficient resources" popup and are stuck.

Some years back I got the Moles to put up traffic cones around the trouble spot. That warns people to stay clear. There are other spots where roads and jagged-edge parcels result in ban lines atop a Linden road. If you find one, bug LL into putting up guard rails or traffic cones or something by submitting a support ticket. This is a routine road maintenance task, done by the Linden Department of Public Works. There are at least half a dozen places on mainland with such fixes.

[PheebyKatz]

The butthurt in this thread can be felt from outside.

A couple of additions:

For what it's worth, I respect that people who pay for something should have the right to enjoy it. Renting land doesn't make you special, give you higher status as a person, or anything, but it does help keep the world afloat, and that should be respected.

There are also many people who pay a great deal of money (relatively speaking) every year, have their Linden homes, and also rent properties. Some of them rent many, many properties.

Not everyone out wandering the mainland in search of fun is a freeloader or bum. People spend a great deal of money on high-quality vehicles, and like to enjoy them. Where should they do this? Sandboxes? The mainland makes sense.

If I rent a house along a highway, and trucks zoom by at all hours, and people ride motorcycles past my house, etc., and I complain about my location, chances are I'll be told that I'm being foolish. If cars and trucks are always crashing into my house, however... Then maybe some preventive measures are in order.

I see properties that are raised up off the road level like cliff faces, and still ban and send people home when they bump into the cliff face. I think that's silly. And heavy-handed.

What nobody anywhere seems to realize, is that you can rez this thing called a prim, make it into a fence shape, and turn it invisible. Make it thick, and people won't pierce through it when they're going fast. It isn't an eyesore, because it's invisible. It isn't in anyone's way, because it's on the property line.

I made a security unit for my friends that doesn't say or do anything. All it does is solidify the inside of the property when the owner isn't within 96 meters of it. People go to invade the house, find it's solid inside, and look for an easier home to invade. Nobody has given anyone grief over it. They just treat is as an obstacle, and avoid it.

In my opinion, people who rent property and go off like volcanoes about their rights are usually suffering from feelings that they should be of a higher perceived status, that nobody is respecting them as is their due as someone who has paid for something. The use of vicious security systems, the blaze of flaming on the forums, all of it is like using a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito, and it's more than likely motivated by the desire to lash out and flex some kind of status power.

People rent land on a continent full of other people. Other people appear. Suddenly they are unhappy, because they wanted privacy, to be alone in the virtual world, to relax away from it all. If I rent an apartment on Bourbon Street, and then complain about the nightclubs being loud all night, that makes me look like a fool. And yet, it happens.

People do this IRL. They rent an apartment in the French Quarter, the land of all-night music and partying, then complain to the city that they have trouble sleeping, and as they are paying for something, they have the right to have their way.

They are fools. It's like moving to the woods, and deciding that all those dern birds have to go, because you never get to sleep in anymore. So you sit on the roof all day with a shotgun, and all you have left to enjoy is killing birds.

If you can't afford a private island, good luck having privacy. If you want to get away from it all, don't move to the burbs. If you can't have what you want, find a way to get it, or you're only wasting yourself by being tormented. Why suffer? Adapt to the environment, or adapt it to suit you.

Just don't expect that renting a parcel on the mainland gives you any power over what others accept as part of life on the mainland, due to its very nature.

Edited August 12, 2023 by PheebyKatz
OMG, awful typo, I hope nobody saw that~

[steeljane42]

Some people seems to really just don't get that some of us do not others on our property. For the record I never had a parcel at mainland, never will, because I simply dislike everything about mainland (and Belliseria). But at times I was renting at private estates I had banlines and 10s security orb on top of it. More than enough to see the warning and TP out if by some chance someone used an old LM. If I had mainland I'd do exactly the same there. Thankfully full regions can be just closed to random teleports completely, so it has been a lot easier since then.

Why? I do not want random people around. That's good enough reason for me. It doesn't matter if I'm online or online, but not home, or offline. I still don't want random people around not even for how long it takes to eject/ban them manually. They are free to buy/rent their own parcels, homestead, regions and do whatever they want with them if they want to, and enfource any rules they desire to, and I won't feel bad for being ejected because "that parcel" has the "only blondes allowed" rule.

Yep, I'm not a very social person in SL just like I'm not one in RL. People are different, nothing new about it. Whining on the forums for decade+ (probably longer, I'm only around since 2012, but pretty sure it wasn't any different before) about "But muh vehicle experience" is rather silly at this point.

Edited August 12, 2023 by steeljane42
typos

[PheebyKatz]

I firmly believe that if a person rents land, anywhere, they have every right to boot anyone they don't want there. I also believe that people should at least be respectful enough of the fact that they aren't the only and most important person in the world to be realistic about it.

And maybe respectful of others, just in general. They don't get that the very thing they're complaining about is caused by the same attitude they themselves have, that they are the one true god and everyone else doesn't (or somehow shouldn't, for some reason) even matter.

Want a private island? Rent a private island. Set it to no entry save for your group, and don't invite anyone to your group except for your sexy alt.

Then you won't have to be ashamed of your fantasies. Nobody will see you acting them out. They won't even have time to cam on you before the sim ejects them.

Want a cheap place to rezz your bed, and hang your wall art? Plenty around, and really cheap, but expect other users to be around.

Renting on the mainland and going off about anything related to the fact that other people exist there and like to roam about on it, well, usually everyone but the one complaining sees the absurdity of that.

I honestly think that LL should offer a single-user instance of SL for paid users. They can download the little sim server unit, crank it up, and chill in privacy in SL, with no fear of any other entity existing in their universe.

Of course, then they'll all complain about the lack of content created by said other entities, but that's their problem.

Edited August 12, 2023 by PheebyKatz

[Istelathis]

1 minute ago, PheebyKatz said:

I honestly think that LL should offer a single-user instance of SL for paid users. They can download the little sim server unit, crank it up, and chill in privacy in SL, with no fear of any other entity existing in their universe.

I would love this   Our own little pocket dimensions, although I would like to also have the feature of trapping people in mine like a phantom zone of sorts.  Then flinging them off into space 😜 

I'm just playing, we have a perfectly good volcano for tossing people in 😈

[Rowan Amore]

It's called the OSgrid.   I hear it's awesome and hardly any people!   

[PheebyKatz]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's called the OSgrid.   I hear it's awesome and hardly any people!   

There is that, yes. Knowing how to make everything myself, these days I could probably enjoy such a thing, but than there'd be no real fun. People make things fun, even the stupid people make things fun. If I never had to kick anyone off a sim, I'd get all flabby and bored.

I think sometimes that the whole desire to be completely alone and private is in direct conflict with a person's desire to be noticed, loved, and important. If someone is completely alone, and expects others to think they're important, and respect them, I mean, why should they bother? They don't even know the person who's off alone even exists.

I notice sometimes that when I wish there were people around, nobody comes around, and when I wish I had 5 minutes alone with nobody on the sim so I can work on my outfit, the place ends up full of people. There has to be a way to leverage this.

Maybe people could use the twisted nature of human psychology to advantage. My SL mom had a whole region, open to the public, decorated beautifully by a master SL landscaping artist, and we invited everyone we ever met to visit the place and call it home, and never asked a thing in return.

Nobody ever came around.

I realize now that the whole "flinging open the gates and welcoming everyone in" thing was actually used as a strategy in war, to ward off invading armies when outnumbered and unable to defend against them. It was so perfect and good, that the opposition just knew it had to be a trap of some sort, and would avoid the place like the plague.

So, maybe being super nice and loving company and wanting everyone to see your place could be just the thing to fix the problem of having people around all the time.

And if it doesn't work, at least you'd be surrounded by people who like what you did with your place.

Edited August 12, 2023 by PheebyKatz

[susan38210]

One of the viewer release candidates has added an option to only show ban lines on collision. It will be the default setting. The viewer is Maintenance-U - 6.6.14.581101 and the release notes are at Release Notes Maintenance Upbeat Upgrades. The notes came out on July 21st.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's called the OSgrid.   I hear it's awesome and hardly any people!   

Bonus eh? Less residents to complain about.