Senra Body SDK Applications Now Open

[Extrude Ragu]

3 hours ago, Fionalein said:

...when the new users realize the new outfit they just invested in is for a body not supported by the majority of content creators. Even if they won't buy anything because a well meaning resident warned them in time ... trust will be lost anyways. Many will interpret this as an attempt to take advantage of their ignorance...

This is actually a good point. If I signed up for a game that advertised itself as a creators platform, and I started buying clothes for a body, thinking I'd later be able to make my own, this would kill my trust in said company when I found out the avatar I invested money in I can't create things for without signing a very controlling license agreement. I'd have no idea about third party support either - I'd just assume it just has it. When I would find out that the body I just spent money on has all these problems, I would very likely feel that I was intentionally led astray.

[Love Zhaoying]

Hoping that LL uses the apparently onerous devkit application and agreement process to create a new in-world clothing design tool!

[Coffee Pancake]

37 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Hoping that LL uses the apparently onerous devkit application and agreement process to create a new in-world clothing design tool!

If that were even remotely connected, and it's not, if the tools were entirely in world there would be no need for a devkit or caustic license agreement (which if you're going to comment on, should go and read).

We have never been further from that kind of tooling.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If that were even remotely connected, and it's not, if the tools were entirely in world there would be no need for a devkit or caustic license agreement (which if you're going to comment on, should go and read).

We have never been further from that kind of tooling.

Sorry if I misspoke, I meant "in-viewer", not "in-world".

[Coffee Pancake]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Sorry if I misspoke, I meant "in-viewer", not "in-world".

That what I understood you to mean. We didn't even get sculpt editing or the ability to paint out own alphas directly onto the avatar, we are never going to get even basic mesh, let alone the complex tooling needed to make clothing. 

[Therese Tammas]

Hard no on this as a regular user. I support things that make sense for creators.

[Therese Tammas]

5 hours ago, Fionalein said:

As many stuff the Lab did it started with good intentions, but then they got carried away and forgot why they even started it.

Convincing users to stay or even upgrade to premium requires trust - trust that won't be there when the new users realize the new outfit they just invested in is for a body not supported by the majority of content creators. Even if they won't buy anything because a well meaning resident warned them in time ... trust will be lost anyways. Many will interpret this as an attempt to take advantage of their ignorance. Many free to play browser games try that - how would new users consider LL to be different?

So now instead of the new user retention aid it was intended to be, NUX has developed into a machinery that erodes new users' trust into LindenLab,... I'm pretty sure it will not work as intended if LL continues down that path.

This. I agree.

[Tazzie Tuque]

In the midst of all this I thought I might point out that those of us who were around near the start of SL like 18 years ago or so,  got a really horrid avatar.  The original Ruth was a nightmare, but for me anyhow was fun to play around with all the features to see if I could make her look half decent.  Back in those days it was easy to find a "mentor" as most folks were happy to greet you and very quickly fill you in on the possibilities of improvement.  To me THAT was the selling point to STAY!  My main concern was getting a skin which made a whopping 200% difference in the way she looked.  Then got something to fix that duck walk we all had so I could walk more like a normal being.   And then the option to buy clothes and accessories, and dances.. And very soon realizing that I had the tools to actually make the clothing myself, and sell it was another good reason to stay.  A way to be creative my way was awesome.

My main point here is this and I do not think it has changed.  It is NOT the avatar you get when you join,  it is the helpful folks who take you by the hand and show you your options that makes folks decide to stay or not.  I know I have helped many a new joiners get oriented and shown their options.  And those folks were most appreciative to find an environment so welcoming.  That makes folks stay.

For me that is the bottom line.  And I believe it is still true, even though bodies and clothing has advanced big time, and things are more complicated, it is still the helpful PEOPLE that make the difference as to one's impression of SL and not what LL offers as a starter.

[Lyda Sands]

On 7/28/2023 at 10:18 PM, Hunny Bunny said:

Let's take this idea further. If you're familiar with bloggers, they already do something similar to this. They share a picture and tell you where to get all the items they're wearing. Now, let's kick it up a notch.

Imagine residents selling a bundle, just like that SL competitor. In this bundle, you'd get everything you need to achieve the look they showcased in the picture. From the head, body, hair, skin, shape, outfit, makeup, tattoos – the whole package! They simply add all the MP links from the various creator's stores to a list and when someone purchases the bundle all those items are deployed from those various stores directly to their received items. It's like a Hello Fresh meal kit but for your avatar's style.

With one purchase, you'll have all the items you need, and they'll even provide detailed instructions on how to unpack, attach, and apply everything. It's a convenient and hassle-free way to get the whole look in one go.

I have a feeling this will go even a HUGE step further.  Submitting your clothing and attachments to LL for approval for this new beginner body will in effect give them the right for your creations to be theirs to sell.  LL will pay you for your creations for them to sell with their body.  It will be interesting though,  whether your name and store remains with your clothing, or you  will just be the secret creator.

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Lyda Sands said:

I have a feeling this will go even a HUGE step further.  Submitting your clothing and attachments to LL for approval for this new beginner body will in effect give them the right for your creations to be theirs to sell.  LL will pay you for your creations for them to sell with their body.  It will be interesting though,  whether your name and store remains with your clothing, or you  will just be the secret creator.

 

They legally can't do that, those are your meshes and textures. LL would get into huge trouble for doing that, as they would be breaking their own TOS specifically when it comes to DMCA and copybotting. 

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

They legally can't do that, those are your meshes and textures. LL would get into huge trouble for doing that, as they would be breaking their own TOS specifically when it comes to DMCA and copybotting. 

You sure about that?  From the ToS...

Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest's official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and sell, re-sell or sublicense (through multiple levels)(with respect to each Product or otherwise on the Service as permitted by you through your interactions with the Service), and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service. The license granted in this Section 2.3 is referred to as the "Service Content License."

[Patch Linden]

Sorry for the delay in response!  

I've seen quite a bit of chatter coming back from over the weekend regarding 3.5 and some also regarding 3.6.   Importantly these are optional.   Our intent is to not normally require inspection, review and auditing of content.   What we are setting up for, and as I've mentioned previously are larger more beneficial products and programs to come.   I've said there is a large piece of context or part of the overall puzzle to this everyone is missing because we simply haven't released that information yet, it will be coming out very soon.   I want to remind again, that this entire project is aimed specifically at new users coming to Second Life.   I have alluded to a new way for users to engage with creating avatars.   We may see a future where we could allow Resident content creators to have content within a tool that new users will have access to, along with being included in Linden shopping, on-boarding or event initiatives.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

What happens if such information is requested and LL are denied.

If nothing, why even have such clauses if they can be avoided without consequence.

Or is it "optional" in the sense that "playing SL is optional".

It's optional, and if they refused they won't get visibility. It's that simple. They are not gonna ask everyone to review or audit their item. And I was talking to Patch on Disc earlier, he stated that this is to help elevate the creator and potentially be a part of something bigger. 

[Galaxy Littlepaws]

32 minutes ago, Patch Linden said:

Sorry for the delay in response!  

I've seen quite a bit of chatter coming back from over the weekend regarding 3.5 and some also regarding 3.6.   Importantly these are optional.   Our intent is to not normally require inspection, review and auditing of content.   What we are setting up for, and as I've mentioned previously are larger more beneficial products and programs to come.   I've said there is a large piece of context or part of the overall puzzle to this everyone is missing because we simply haven't released that information yet, it will be coming out very soon.   I want to remind again, that this entire project is aimed specifically at new users coming to Second Life.   I have alluded to a new way for users to engage with creating avatars.   We may see a future where we could allow Resident content creators to have content within a tool that new users will have access to, along with being included in Linden shopping, on-boarding or event initiatives.

Now my questions are:
1 - Is all of this in order to be able to create anything at all for this new starter avatar?
2 - Or, is it to create things only for the new "avatar creation onboarding experience"?
3- Is this meant to be an avatar used for a little while and then tossed as soon as possible rather than any long-term use and investment?

I feel there may be some miscommunication going on here as to the purpose of this. At face value, it really comes across as "you need to jump through hoops to make anything at all for this starter avatar, even if you're a newb who just wants to try to make yourself a cool t-shirt", which seems antithetical to the SL experience.

[Tazzie Tuque]

38 minutes ago, Patch Linden said:

I've seen quite a bit of chatter coming back from over the weekend regarding 3.5 and some also regarding 3.6.   Importantly these are optional.   Our intent is to not normally require inspection, review and auditing of content.   What we are setting up for, and as I've mentioned previously are larger more beneficial products and programs to come.   I've said there is a large piece of context or part of the overall puzzle to this everyone is missing because we simply haven't released that information yet, it will be coming out very soon.   I want to remind again, that this entire project is aimed specifically at new users coming to Second Life.   I have alluded to a new way for users to engage with creating avatars.   We may see a future where we could allow Resident content creators to have content within a tool that new users will have access to, along with being included in Linden shopping, on-boarding or event initiatives.

I appreciate that Patch took the time to respond here.  But I am afraid he did not say that much to help us understand what exactly is going on.  Hinting about bigger and better things?  Reminding us that we do not have the whole picture.  OK but how about waiting till we can get the whole picture rather than putting out pieces at a time.  We need to see the whole puzzle so we do not start to make assumptions, or interpret things the wrong way.  This happens when we only have a part of the whole thing.

[Patch Linden]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Littlepaws said:

Now my questions are:
1 - Is all of this in order to be able to create anything at all for this new starter avatar?
2 - Or, is it to create things only for the new "avatar creation onboarding experience"?
3- Is this meant to be an avatar used for a little while and then tossed as soon as possible rather than any long-term use and investment?

I feel there may be some miscommunication going on here as to the purpose of this. At face value, it really comes across as "you need to jump through hoops to make anything at all for this starter avatar, even if you're a newb who just wants to try to make yourself a cool t-shirt", which seems antithetical to the SL experience.

1) No, create to your heart's content, anything and everything you want, assuming you have the SDK.

2) Correct, if we were to choose to feature your content in the unannounced things to come like the creation onboarding experience, then we would need to inspect your content before it ends up selectable and potentially in everyone's inventory.  There's more to come on this.

3) That's for the beholder to decide. We feel we've created a launching point for new users, which will come with significant and groundbreaking (for Second Life) tools that I will continue to reinforce, are not currently aimed at existing users of Second Life.  

The SDK is not set up as a teaching tool for new content creators to learn from, that is currently out of scope for the project, we may tackle that later on. 

[Galaxy Littlepaws]

Thank you so much for responding.

One last question set, do we still have to fill out this application form just to have access to the SDK? Is there a way to have the application *not* require an existing in-world store? It is unclear why that is needed, and what it is about an in-world store that would be used for consideration just to access the devkit.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Galaxy Littlepaws

[Patch Linden]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Littlepaws said:

Thank you so much for responding.

One last question set, do we still have to fill out this application form just to have access to the SDK? Is there a way to have the application *not* require an existing in-world store? It is unclear why that is needed, and what it is about an in-world store that would be used for consideration just to access the devkit.

Yes, you do need to fill out the form to have access to the SDK.  An in-world store is not required, just respond with N/A if that is the case.  

[Persephone Emerald]

The Girl Next Door and Boy Next Door avatars were promoted as being created by Adam and Eve. This probably helped that store's visibility to new users years ago. They're barely visible on the mesh body and clothing market now though.

If every new user has clothing that says it's made by store X or Y, that could be very good marketing for them. If the new users have some kind of clothing HUD that can be filled with more clothes at those stores or at the Welcome Hub Shopping region, that might be good for those stores too 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

The Girl Next Door and Boy Next Door avatars were promoted as being created by Adam and Eve. This probably helped that store's visibility to new users years ago. They're barely visible on the mesh body and clothing market now though.

If every new user has clothing that says it's made by store X or Y, that could be very good marketing for them. If the new users have some kind of clothing HUD that can be filled with more clothes at those stores or at the Welcome Hub Shopping region, that might be good for those stores too 

It's a win-win for both LL and creators alike. 

[Persephone Emerald]

@Patch Linden,

Will we still have access to Dog-bag Lady (Bitsy) and the other starter avatars of that group in our Library?

[Gabriele Graves]

8 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

@Patch Linden,

Will we still have access to Dog-bag Lady (Bitsy) and the other starter avatars of that group in our Library?

I've got my copy just in case

[NeoBokrug Elytis]

@Patch Linden  Any word on the feedback about how... unoptimized it is for a mesh body?  That's a pretty big complaint I often hear from not only technical folks, but popular content developers in SL.  If this truly is for onboarding new users, it's important to keep the FPS high, and the baseline mesh to be seen as an example of well-made content in SL.

[Kathlen Onyx]

I wonder if these avatars would be able to wear the fitmesh sizes?

[Gabriele Graves]

6 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I wonder if these avatars would be able to wear the fitmesh sizes?

I can answer that for Jamie.  I tried with a variety of fitmesh items from Mooh and other places and they didn't fit very well.  The main areas were the breasts, bum and pelvis.  Some of it could be alpha'd out but only if the clothing provided fair coverage of the body.