Notes on the WelcomeHub

[Gabriele Graves]

I think that again this is one of those things where it depends on why you came to SL in the first place which sets expectations of how "free" it should be.

If:

a) You just heard about SL and want to try it out and see if you like using it then I think it's reasonable for the new user to not expect steep upfront costs and to try to get by with free and almost free items.

b) You came to SL because you heard that you can make money in SL and you would also like to make stuff and make money then I think it's reasonable that you should also expect to have to spend some money as well.

[Randall Ahren]

43 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

So having to  spend money on $L isn't a deterrent for new people...

Also if a newbie thinks that they can just hop in SL and "make money" then it's probably good they find out right away it's not that easy. We don't need to sugarcoat it for them.

Having to spend money on a game you're not sure you like, is a deterrent. To earn L$, noobs can DJ, host, sing, or offer personal services.

[Kathlen Onyx]

18 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

Having to spend money on a game you're not sure you like, is a deterrent. To earn L$, noobs can DJ, host, sing, or offer personal services.

Ok, Mr. negative.  Do you think that being any of those things you mention wouldn't cost money? Who would hire a DJ or host with a new system avatar  or be able to escort without spending money.

[Randall Ahren]

1 minute ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Ok, Mr. negative.  Do you think that being any of those things you mention wouldn't cost money? Who would hire a DJ or host with a new system avatar  or be able to escort without spending money.

There is a busking area in London City and if you can sing, you can pick up a few L$. As far as the system avatar, there are free mesh ones.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The Lindens have created this monster by first open-sourcing the viewer, then not buying out Firestorm, used by most of their customers, for reasons not entirely clear but likely have to do with:

o the religious devotion certain Lindens have to their broken SL search -- Firestorm preserved  the working legacy search, which is why the SL economy succeeds to the extent that it does;

o the reluctance to own the copybot contingent among Firestorm users, even in open groups, which Firestorm itself doesn't directly deal with, but which LL can then deal with as they please, either by ignoring it or selective prosecution based on their own server data.

Surprising it is not clear to you but I'd wager the reasons are more apt to be:

o Ongoing Group support of the FS viewer with quick access to the Group joiner when one has their viewer, fast response with tips and tricks and direct links to their troubleshooting pages, regular inworld classes on getting the most out of the viewer as well as viewer features that are relevant to a greater majority of residents.

I'd go further to point out that Firestorm over the years has borne the brunt of keeping people coming back because if it had been left to only the SL viewer with their lack of organization and support, the attrition would be significantly higher. Had they not opensourced the viewer code we would have been left with an even less user friendly pos then the SL viewer is now.

You realize if they had incorporated the support structure of the FS team, they wouldn't have even needed this Welcome region with its mentors because any issues that do come up for a noob would be simply resolved through them having ready access to a viewer group with all the resources at their fingertips for resolving most questions. Any more in-depth help could be made available by volunteer mentors willing to go to a noobs location from a centrally dispatched, readily accessed Group. Instead the Lab sets up an offworld  discord group for mentors only. What a waste of resources.

At least I agree with you on the dichotomy not ending any time soon, if ever.

[Jaylinbridges]

I would like to hear ALL the ways a non-skilled basic account only (No PIOF on file) newbie can earn lindens in SL, from the mentors.  This is such a common question that the mentors must have an official list to read and send to the linden-less newbie.

Might be time for another homeless alt, living on leftover pizza from the nearby shop by the bridge I live under with my drug selling buddies, to ask the new mentors.  All of my alts at least have PIOF, so they can actually earn a few lindens in the Linden Games.  Maybe the mentors will loan me a dime (25 $L).

Another newer version with Boz Scaggs:

"No autotune. No plastic, soulless overproduction. Talent, craft, understated musicianship and technical prowess. And on top, raw emotional vocals."

Another plug for real music, my passion.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Persephone Emerald]

19 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I would like to hear ALL the ways a non-skilled basic account only (No PIOF on file) newbie can earn lindens in SL, from the mentors.  This is such a common question that the mentors must have an official list to read and send to the linden-less newbie.

Might be time for another homeless alt, living on leftover pizza from the nearby shop by the bridge I live under with my drug selling buddies, to ask the new mentors.  All of my alts at least have PIOF, so they can actually earn a few lindens in the Linden Games.  Maybe the mentors will loan me a dime (25 $L).

 

Maybe the NUX avatars need to come with a hat they can hold out and a sign that says "Will Work for Lindens $" ?

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Hunny Bunny]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Maybe the NUX avatars need to come with a hat they can hold out and a sign that says "Will Work for Lindens $" ?

Maybe they should come with a bag they can wear on their head, or two in case one breaks.

[Robberinthemuseum]

🤣 this is on point! When I joined, I ended up not logging in again for a year and then buying 15,000 to put together an avatar. I have spent around $1000 in sl at this point on God knows what. I still have a basic account. 

[Alwin Alcott]

in many posts as this thread continues i see a lot about avi changing.

wth doesn't a newbie rezz in a better looking and reaaly workable avi.
Looks like a pretty easy job after 20 yrs. .. but the last show of the NUX was again a horror.

As i said past week, i made a new account past week to see the new entrance ( magically failed ) i had to choose the fugly unchangeble avis that are around since the dark ages. 

btw .. after starting on the Chung portal, the second day my home was automaticly send to a random hub, due to restarts i think, but a new player would be lost!.. (and gone) i wouldn''t even send my worst enemy to those random hubs.. often it would be enough and only reason reason to quit instantly..  A later relog also didn't bring me back to the Chung portal. The day after i finally ended on the new hub,( again without me changing the settings) .. no Mentors at that time, but that's not a big point for me. But also nobody to welcome ..that's worse.
I hope my first days travel were influenced by recognizing the use of viewer, otherwise i completely keep understanding people run for that.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i many posts as this thread continues i see a lot about avi changing.

wth doesn't a newbie rezz in a better looking and reaaly workable avi.
Looks like a pretty easy job after 20 yrs. .. but the last show of the NUX was again a horror.

As i said past week, i made a new account past week to see the new entrance ( magically failed ) i had to choose the fugly unchangeble avis that are around since the dark ages. 

[snip]

The NUX avatars are not fully live yet. It's far too soon to start complaining about them. Remember too, these are not meant to be alternatives to mesh avatars one could buy. They are meant to be alternatives only to the existing starter avatars.

[Alwin Alcott]

Just now, Persephone Emerald said:

The NUX avatars are not fully live yet. It's far too soon to start complaining about them. Remember too, these are not meant to be alternatives to mesh avatars one could buy. They are meant to be alternatives only to the existing starter avatars.

i think it's completely valid to say they still look bád at this point.
They'r working on it for a long time already, and had several pre shows.
By the time they áre really released, it will be old again i'm affraid.

I would be faster, cheaper and better LL makes a deal with some most populair (and upcomming) mesh body/avi creators for a limited feature editions for starters. 
The content is already waiting in huge amounts.
 

[Jaylinbridges]

37 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

btw .. after starting on the Chung portal, the second day my home was automaticly send to a random hub, due to restarts i think, but a new player would be lost!.. (and gone) i wouldn''t even send my worst enemy to those random hubs.

The first question I asked the new mentors was if all of the new accounts were being sent to the Welcome Hub.  No one knew for sure, just several guesses.

I wonder if you start a new account and as soon as you can log in, you switch to Firestorm?   I logged in with the SL Viewer with my last alt, but as soon as I landed at a Welcome Island, I logged off and logged back in with Firestorm. If you show up not using the SL Viewer as a newbie, do you get sent to some other hub?   Does anyone get sent to the Belli Hub before they pay for a Premium account, and why?

So what's the queuing algorithm LL is using for new accounts?

The new Welcome Hub is open to anyone of any age or viewer.  But a real new account should only be sent to the Welcome Hub it seems to me.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Zalificent Corvinus]

18 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

I would be faster, cheaper and better LL makes a deal with some most populair (and upcomming) mesh body/avi creators for a limited feature editions for starters. 
The content is already waiting in huge amounts.
 

Frankly, they should have gone to Absolut Creations, who made the Eve and Adam bodies, and matching heads, and who also made a basic selection of full perm template clothing for said bodies, and offered them a deal to make "reduced quality starter avatars" with a modest selection of full perm template clothing, to stick in the library, so small time creators could put out cheap clothing for the new bodies within a day or two of release.

 

It would almost certainly have been cheaper than trying to develop them themselves, almost certainly quicker than doing it themselves, and almost certainly better.

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The first question I asked the new mentors was if all of the new accounts were being sent to the Welcome Hub.  No one knew for sure, just several guesses.

I wonder if you start a new account and as soon as you can log in, you switch to Firestorm?   I logged in with the SL Viewer with my last alt, but as soon as I landed at a Welcome Island, I logged off and logged back in with Firestorm. If you show up not using the SL Viewer as a newbie, do you get sent to some other hub?   Does anyone get sent to the Belli Hub before they pay for a Premium account, and why?

So what's the queuing algorithm LL is using for new accounts?

The new Welcome Hub is open to anyone of any age or viewer.  But a real new account should only be sent to the Welcome Hub it seems to me.

 

It is completely random where you get sent to hub wise. I would dare say that the WelcomeHub is higher up on the list but there is a chance, no matter the viewer, you will go to another hub. Of those community gateway hubs the tutorial area could be as little as walk forward, fly up and exit. So long as it meets the 'have tutorials' in the guideline they can be as little or small as you want.

The gateways also cant have LL mentors stationed on them nor any LL content such as the videos at the WelcomeHub and rely solely on the region owner group to provide the mentors of which a lot just dont bother with so they are usually empty like Alwin experienced. Many are also never updated so chances are the tutorials are outdated for things like EEP etc.

The reason why many of them only have a small fraction of their region dedicated to the 'new user' is due to LL offering no subsidy for regions that are listed as community gateways and therefore most have other things on the region to help support them that may scare off new users or detract from the new user experience. Such as the tutorial being in a skybox.

[Robberinthemuseum]

6 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

It is completely random where you get sent to hub wise. I would dare say that the WelcomeHub is higher up on the list but there is a chance, no matter the viewer, you will go to another hub. Of those community gateway hubs the tutorial area could be as little as walk forward, fly up and exit. So long as it meets the 'have tutorials' in the guideline they can be as little or small as you want.

The gateways also cant have LL mentors stationed on them nor any LL content such as the videos at the WelcomeHub and rely solely on the region owner group to provide the mentors of which a lot just dont bother with so they are usually empty like Alwin experienced. Many are also never updated so chances are the tutorials are outdated for things like EEP etc.

The reason why many of them only have a small fraction of their region dedicated to the 'new user' is due to LL offering no subsidy for regions that are listed as community gateways and therefore most have other things on the region to help support them that may scare off new users or detract from the new user experience. Such as the tutorial being in a skybox.

Yes! I rezzed to a deserted place with no active residents and I didn't know how to im

[Drayke Newall]

31 minutes ago, Robberinthemuseum said:

Yes! I rezzed to a deserted place with no active residents and I didn't know how to im

Yep, wouldn't surprise me in the least. They are at most times shockingly bad as there is no oversight offered by LL for them to meet any quality standard.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Persephone Emerald]

12 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

It is completely random where you get sent to hub wise. I would dare say that the WelcomeHub is higher up on the list but there is a chance, no matter the viewer, you will go to another hub. Of those community gateway hubs the tutorial area could be as little as walk forward, fly up and exit. So long as it meets the 'have tutorials' in the guideline they can be as little or small as you want.

The gateways also cant have LL mentors stationed on them nor any LL content such as the videos at the WelcomeHub and rely solely on the region owner group to provide the mentors of which a lot just dont bother with so they are usually empty like Alwin experienced. Many are also never updated so chances are the tutorials are outdated for things like EEP etc.

The reason why many of them only have a small fraction of their region dedicated to the 'new user' is due to LL offering no subsidy for regions that are listed as community gateways and therefore most have other things on the region to help support them that may scare off new users or detract from the new user experience. Such as the tutorial being in a skybox.

If this is true, the onboarding situation is much worse than I thought it was.

I created a new alt today, used the LL viewer, yet still found myself rezzing in at the Firestorm gateway. I thought this must've been a glitch because I'd been there before on my Firestorm viewer.

Why would LL send people using a LL viewer to a Firestorm gateway or to an old, outdated and unmanned gateway if they want to retain new users?

I used Search to go to the Welcome Hub, but I feel sorry for newbies who would feel totally lost and confused.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Drayke Newall]

48 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If this is true, the onboarding situation is much worse than I thought it was.

I created a new alt today, used the LL viewer, yet still found myself rezzing it at the Firestorm gateway. I thought this must've been a glitch because I'd been there before on my Firestorm viewer.

Why would LL send people using a LL viewer to a Firestorm gateway or to an old, outdated and unmanned gateway if they want to retain new users?

Because as I said, they are not interested in oversight of the gateway program or providing any standard to it.

So long as you meet the criteria such as have a tutorial section and be an active community for 1 year prior. Thats all they care about. You also need a full region but that is only due to traffic size. That doesn't equate to "tutorial or new user experience needs to be the full region".

This isn't me bashing the Lindens or Moles. It is just simply how it has been. Even when the gateway program existed pre 2010 (when it was first stopped - was only re-introduced in 2017) it was the same.

No matter the viewer, where the user is located in the world or what they are looking to get out of SL after they leave any of the welcome areas, you will go to random places.

ETA:

Wouldn't it be better if you are located in Greece your IP shows that and you are connected to a region that has the tutorials (exactly the same as the LL WelcomeHub) in Greek where mentors that are Greek or willing to help in Greek can be stationed. Would certainly solve the issue that someone posted earlier (perhaps was you Persephone) where they were asking if there was anyone that spoke Greek.

Would certainly also help the mentors in trying to post in local to direct people who speak 'x' language to go over 'there' for help etc.

It even goes down to basic things like localisation of the second life viewer. Are all languages offered to users when they download the viewer or is the viewer just always in English?

ETA Again:

Just in case people are not aware, you are also required to have a website. If someone joins SL through your community website they will automatically be sent to that community gateway and will be auto added to your group etc.

This however works out in the end to be pointless as the majority of new users will go through the LL website.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Fionalein]

Really? They recommend to obtain in game currency by building things to sell? This is no beat em up RPG where you can grind money by felling trees and then sell arrows ...

Have those Mentors even tried building stuff themselves? There are few people in SL with the skills to create a desirable product. And fewer of those produce stuff because operating a store can be a chore.

I have befriended many newbies who were told they could earn money creating things. They were totally hyped by the idea of earning L$. Most eventually were heartbroken and left.

Sorry to break it to you, but: This is not how you retain users for the long time.

[xDancingStarx]

54 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I have befriended many newbies who were told they could earn money creating things. They were totally hyped by the idea of earning L$. Most eventually were heartbroken and left.

So they left because you told them that any "easy" ways of generating L$ in the game will not even come any close to paying their electricity bill? And they all left because they were heartbroken that there wasn't an easy way to make L$? And eventually it's the mentor's fault? I'm trying to follow but..

[Fionalein]

35 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

So they left because you told them that any "easy" ways of generating L$ in the game will not even come any close to paying their electricity bill? And they all left because they were heartbroken that there wasn't an easy way to make L$? And eventually it's the mentor's fault? I'm trying to follow but..

never said it was me who gave them that brilliant idea LOL

My usual honest advice on that plan is: "It's not impossible but it will be tough."

Edited July 19, 2023 by Fionalein

[Love Zhaoying]

On the whole contentious question of a Mentor answering "how do I make money?" with, "create and sell on the MP":

I think the answer given is ACCURATE but just woefully INCOMPLETE.  

There are so many ways to make money in SL, if someone gave that as the ONLY way, they are doing the new user a general disservice.

- The "old school" way to make L$ without doing much of anything was to "camp" (camping chairs, lucky chairs, etc. which mostly may be rare now).   Clubs with "RAFL Balls" etc. are still around..

- Doesn't "Linden Realms" give L$ as prizes? (That would be an actual "gamified" way to make L$)

- The sad fact others stated is MOSTLY true, "you have to spend money to make money". I think even to start out in a "Fishing game" you need L$?

There are so very many ways to make L$ in Second Life - WITHOUT doing anything "adult oriented", that there are too many to list.

I think we need "low-skilled Employment Classifieds".  This would have a lot of opportunities to test items (such as new scripted objects),  model clothing without real experience, etc.  The bonus with certain jobs like "modeling" is of course, that they should include "free stuff".

 

[Rowan Amore]

After overtaking video game purchases, in-game consumer spending accounts for the biggest share of the video gaming market. In 2020, global gaming audiences spent an approximate 54 billion U.S. dollars on additional in-game content. In 2025, the market value of in-game purchases is projected to surpass 74.4 billion U.S. dollars.

Not unreasonable that a new person spend $20-$30 to upgrade their avatar.  People throw that much away on fancy coffee a week.

[Arielle Popstar]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

After overtaking video game purchases, in-game consumer spending accounts for the biggest share of the video gaming market. In 2020, global gaming audiences spent an approximate 54 billion U.S. dollars on additional in-game content. In 2025, the market value of in-game purchases is projected to surpass 74.4 billion U.S. dollars.

Not unreasonable that a new person spend $20-$30 to upgrade their avatar.  People throw that much away on fancy coffee a week.

It's not unreasonable to those who are already hooked to a particular platform. The onboarding process though is there just to help someone get declouded and learn how to change their basic appearance. Convincing them they need to immediately  spend 20-30 dollars to be passable is likely going to be a hard sell.