Motown: LL's Partnership with Capital Music, and the New User Experience

[Caeruleiae]

4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Tongue out of cheek, it's not good to make such generalizations as if LL is one thing. There are many people on the Linden/Mole team, and each person will respond to criticism differently --some will use it to improve, some will defend against doing anything wrong, and some will evaluate the "mistake" as being the best that can be done at the time.

I'm an individual person too but when I speak for the company I work with or answer commentary as if it's coming from them-I am that company. I am representing that company. My option to act butthurt if I present something for evaluation that has potential problems-as this area has been since ll asked for comments about it-goes out the window. I don't have the luxury of being butthurt-I just don't. It sucks at times because me-the human individual-doesn't want to be criticized-but I buck up like a grown adult. 

There's nothing wrong with not liking criticism-who always likes it anyway? There's also nothing wrong with pointing out the issues with an area that ll is trying to present as something fantastic to new-and probably old people alike-that showcases all kinds of areas of interest that sl might have to offer. It might seem like a giant wall of text with nothing but complaints but if that's what needs fixed-that's what needs commented on not just the positive things. 

Maybe it's because I deal with negative comments problematic areas and complaints all the time that I have learned to see them for what they are-even if I don't like them or their delivery at times. But if I am presented with-ok these are the areas you really need to fix and what's wrong with them sans the sugar coating-my first reaction isn't to try and find insult. It's to say-ok let me look at this again and see if I see what you see or find someone else who sees what you see too so I can fix that. 

This is ll and their employees-not someone who is brand new to creation and building. I am also taking that into consideration here. If they were all novices-it would be far more amazing and less likely to receive as much direct criticism. I am pretty sure that ll is a big entity and can wear it's big entity panties. 

 

[Luna Bliss]

25 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Tongue out of cheek, it's not good to make such generalizations as if LL is one thing. There are many people on the Linden/Mole team, and each person will respond to criticism differently --some will use it to improve, some will defend against doing anything wrong, and some will evaluate the "mistake" as being the best that can be done at the time.

I'm an individual person too but when I speak for the company I work with or answer commentary as if it's coming from them-I am that company. I am representing that company. My option to act butthurt if I present something for evaluation that has potential problems-as this area has been since ll asked for comments about it-goes out the window. I don't have the luxury of being butthurt-I just don't. It sucks at times because me-the human individual-doesn't want to be criticized-but I buck up like a grown adult. 

There's nothing wrong with not liking criticism-who always likes it anyway? There's also nothing wrong with pointing out the issues with an area that ll is trying to present as something fantastic to new-and probably old people alike-that showcases all kinds of areas of interest that sl might have to offer. It might seem like a giant wall of text with nothing but complaints but if that's what needs fixed-that's what needs commented on not just the positive things. 

Maybe it's because I deal with negative comments problematic areas and complaints all the time that I have learned to see them for what they are-even if I don't like them or their delivery at times. But if I am presented with-ok these are the areas you really need to fix and what's wrong with them sans the sugar coating-my first reaction isn't to try and find insult. It's to say-ok let me look at this again and see if I see what you see or find someone else who sees what you see too so I can fix that. 

This is ll and their employees-not someone who is brand new to creation and building. I am also taking that into consideration here. If they were all novices-it would be far more amazing and less likely to receive as much direct criticism. I am pretty sure that ll is a big entity and can wear it's big entity panties. 

Oh I'm sure they have their big-boy panties on -- that's not the issue for me. What I don't like is criticism that is not justified -- I did not feel like a good part of Drayke's criticism had any merit.
If people are going to criticize, in my book, it should have validity!

To put it bluntly, neither you nor Drayke knows what it takes to create a large project in SL, yet you talk and criticize like you do.
Annoying!

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Oh I'm sure they have their big-boy panties on -- that's not the issue for me. What I don't like is criticism that is not justified -- I did not feel like a good part of Drayke's criticism had any merit.
If people are going to criticize, in my book, it should have validity!

To put it bluntly, neither you nor Drayke knows what it takes to create a large project in SL, yet you talk and criticize like you do.
Annoying!

I'd look forward to your critique of Drayke's critique in that I learn from him what I should watch for on my own regions, and would like to see what your blow by blow response would be to his points. Hopes you aren't just blowing smoke here.

[Nika Talaj]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'd look forward to your critique of Drayke's critique in that I learn from him what I should watch for on my own regions, and would like to see what your blow by blow response would be to his points. Hopes you aren't just blowing smoke here.

I live in hopes that you and Luna, and Drayke if they are interested, can discuss this privately.  It's gotten pretty off-topic, and the tone is getting more and more personal.  Drayke's original critiques of the Motown build seem to be pretty clear; these last few posts aren't about Motown.

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Nika Talaj said:

I live in hopes that you and Luna, and Drayke if they are interested, can discuss this privately.  It's gotten pretty off-topic, and the tone is getting more and more personal.  Drayke's original critiques of the Motown build seem to be pretty clear; these last few posts aren't about Motown.

Some may have missed my earlier post with a tongue-in-cheek critique of Drayke's grammar on his critique post. It was removed for being too personal and off-topic. Take that as a warning as to what else the Moderators may remove from this thread.

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, Nika Talaj said:

I live in hopes that you and Luna, and Drayke if they are interested, can discuss this privately.

Definitely not interested, discussing this here or in private.

[Dyna Mole]

9 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I was in voice with him and he said "why is nothing happening". Confused, I asked "what" and he said "nothing happens when I click on the road or the plants" (we were in the fantasy zone). To my surprise, indeed, the road, plants and everything in-between showed that something should happen when I click it, yet nothing did. After looking at the objects there was a script clearly there to turn the glow on and at night. A script that had no need to be touched as it was auto. From that he said to me, this would drive him crazy and so he said he couldn't consider buying premium for the home of which was the main drawcards he was thinking of 'playing SL'. This meant a lost sale for LL and a negative first look at second life and a point lost to retention.

Hi, @Drayke Newall.  Thanks for the mostly constructive observations. I have had my head down working on other things most of the day and have only just found time to read through this thread. In doing it, I feel I have to offer an explanation for what you see as an apparent flaw in Fantasy scripting.

Most LDPW scripts have some sort of trap door provision that a mole or Linden can use either to diagnose a problem or do a quick check to be sure that things are working as designed.  All streetlights, for example, have a touch activation that only responds to a mole or Linden and then only makes the light reverse its state (ON or OFF) for 10 seconds.  In the Fantasy theme, most of the bioluminescent objects( plants, rocks, pavement, house roofs ... ) contain that provision so that we can tell easily whether the glow is OFF because it's daytime or because its script stalled.  A Fantasy region has hundreds of those objects, all listening to a central server that monitors the sun angle and checks to see when the season (and hence the color scheme) should change. Having that quick diagnostic switch makes troubleshooting much easier for us. It shouldn't make a bit of difference that a non-mole or non-Linden can't activate it. It's like all those doors in other people's houses that you can't open either.  I'm tempted to suggest that your friend overreacted on this occasion.

BTW, in case you wonder ... all those scripts just sit idle, doing nothing at all unless they are pinged by the region's central server or are touched by one of us. Their total impact on region resources is miniscule.  

Thanks again for taking the time to do a careful review of our work.

[Gabriele Graves]

Don't you just hate it when you get your accounts mixed up eh?

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Dyna Mole said:

Hi, @Drayke Newall.  Thanks for the mostly constructive observations. I have had my head down working on other things most of the day and have only just found time to read through this thread. In doing it, I feel I have to offer an explanation for what you see as an apparent flaw in Fantasy scripting.

Most LDPW scripts have some sort of trap door provision that a mole or Linden can use either to diagnose a problem or do a quick check to be sure that things are working as designed.  All streetlights, for example, have a touch activation that only responds to a mole or Linden and then only makes the light reverse its state (ON or OFF) for 10 seconds.  In the Fantasy theme, most of the bioluminescent objects( plants, rocks, pavement, house roofs ... ) contain that provision so that we can tell easily whether the glow is OFF because it's daytime or because its script stalled.  A Fantasy region has hundreds of those objects, all listening to a central server that monitors the sun angle and checks to see when the season (and hence the color scheme) should change. Having that quick diagnostic switch makes troubleshooting much easier for us. It shouldn't make a bit of difference that a non-mole or non-Linden can't activate it. It's like all those doors in other people's houses that you can't open either.  I'm tempted to suggest that your friend overreacted on this occasion.

BTW, in case you wonder ... all those scripts just sit idle, doing nothing at all unless they are pinged by the region's central server or are touched by one of us. Their total impact on region resources is miniscule.  

Thanks again for taking the time to do a careful review of our work.

Thanks for actually responding to the feedback and explaining the reason. I also know that scripts run idle (including avatar scripts) unless interacted with, that wasn't the issue here. He felt that he would constantly think he needed to click something, or something could be interacted with and so decided against it. I also have no doubt he did overreact and I actually said that he was to him. The point I was making in my response is, little things such as that can have a negative outcome and comes down to user friendliness.

Whilst I appreciate the reason for such a system and understand its need, for me personally when I have built things in the past for my and other user's regions where only I or they have the ability/need to click them, I set the "click to" in the build menu to 'none'. This doesn't stop me/them from touching or running the script for troubleshooting (like you do) as, the 'right click > touch' still works to run the script. It just removes complications on the user end in thinking something was interactable. I do the same to furniture where creators have left 'touch' as the default and change it to 'sit' for user friendliness. For example the chairs in your cinema build on the Motown region. Simple things to help stop a user thinking something is there, work out what the interaction is, etc. I do it differently to you and that's fine.

As to my other feedback in relation to the thread topic, I probably could have worded it better but when it is 2am in the morning and I am responding quickly after visiting the region, I didn't want to drag the response out or forget the things so did it in a quick almost point form response. In future however, I will keep such feedback to myself as it seems to be unwanted and taken way out of proportion in these forums. Everybody will probably now cheer.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Kathlen Onyx]

I went to the build the day after to look at it because it sounded exciting and was curious.  I found it lackluster and really just an average SL build.  I expected to see a WOW factor but it looked very outdated.

Another thing was the lag. I hardly ever get lag but with only 4 people in the sim with my FPS the same as on any other sim I could hardly move. So much so I just abandoned doing anything but stand in one place and cam around.  It was...a disappointment.

I didn't particularly find anything of Drayke's comments to be offensive or rude. He was just stating facts.

[Jaylinbridges]

23 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Another thing was the lag. I hardly ever get lag but with only 4 people in the sim with my FPS the same as on any other sim I could hardly move.

You were at a new build.  Your viewer and cache had to load in all the new textures and objects since you had never been there before.  Initial lag when going to a fresh build is common and normal.  The number of avatars has nothing to do with your initial landing lag. Increase your cache sizes, or clear it so you start with an empty cache if your cache is too small.  If your draw distance was too low, you will not load enough into your cache and force the textures to be reloaded from the CDN servers whenever you move.  This can also cause rezzing delays.

Once the region in your draw distance is loaded in cache, there should be no lag.  If there are avatars within your range, of course each avatar adds more lag, and your cache and memory can fill up.  But if there were really only 4 avatars (not animesh objects) in your range, that should not cause the kind of lag you describe.

The only lag I found was with the first day crowds in MoTown, and that was horrible on my old potato. All the lag was from the crap the avatars were wearing, including their mesh bodies.  That is not the fault of a build.

[Caeruleiae]

7 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

To put it bluntly, neither you nor Drayke knows what it takes to create a large project in SL, yet you talk and criticize like you do.
Annoying!

To put it even more bluntly-my comment about big panties was a subtle way of telling you that ll doesn't need your defense. It's never warranted here but its always present and it's beyond annoying. 

I don't know what a big project in sl is like. I have never once said I did. In fact I have been very clear that I absolutely do not know what it is. I do know when things don't seem to be working or don't seem to look right or need to be fixed. You don't get to tell me I don't-you're not me so please stop doing that. 

What I do know though-which obviously you can't know I know-involves a lot more than just big projects in sl. I have worked in virtual spaces and even games since I was a teen. Admittedly that wasn't all too long ago-but it does give me some perspective that you can't possibly know I have without me telling you. I have also worked on other types of big projects-probably like a lot of other people here. I have an entire department of people that work under me-most of them much older than I am. I don't always like criticism either-same as everyone else-but I know how to separate my own personal feelings from an actual project-no matter how much blood sweat tears and time I have poured into it. 

Please quit talking to people the way you do-it's the kind of thing that keeps others from even bothering to state their mind at all. You might not see value in another's criticism because you don't like the delivery-but that doesn't make you right. The world would do a lot better if we all realized that from time to time. People like you who try to shut others down because you don't always like their delivery are the kind of people that keep people like me from wanting to participate or contribute to "big projects in sl". You have no idea what sorts of things I get up to in sl-but if I meet too many more people like you-no one will. It's very disheartening. 

I'm glad to see people saying what they both enjoyed and think needs fixing. I think ll needs both of those things. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Caeruleiae

[Luna Bliss]

46 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

To put it bluntly, neither you nor Drayke knows what it takes to create a large project in SL, yet you talk and criticize like you do.
Annoying!

To put it even more bluntly-my comment about big panties was a subtle way of telling you that ll doesn't need your defense. It's never warranted here but its always present and it's beyond annoying. 

I don't know what a big project in sl is like. I have never once said I did. In fact I have been very clear that I absolutely do not know what it is. I do know when things don't seem to be working or don't seem to look right or need to be fixed. You don't get to tell me I don't-you're not me so please stop doing that. 

What I do know though-which obviously you can't know I know-involves a lot more than just big projects in sl. I have worked in virtual spaces and even games since I was a teen. Admittedly that wasn't all too long ago-but it does give me some perspective that you can't possibly know I have without me telling you. I have also worked on other types of big projects-probably like a lot of other people here. I have an entire department of people that work under me-most of them much older than I am. I don't always like criticism either-same as everyone else-but I know how to separate my own personal feelings from an actual project-no matter how much blood sweat tears and time I have poured into it. 

Please quit talking to people the way you do-it's the kind of thing that keeps others from even bothering to state their mind at all. You might not see value in another's criticism because you don't like the delivery-but that doesn't make you right. The world would do a lot better if we all realized that from time to time. People like you who try to shut others down because you don't always like their delivery are the kind of people that keep people like me from wanting to participate or contribute to "big projects in sl". You have no idea what sorts of things I get up to in sl-but if I meet too many more people like you-no one will. It's very disheartening. 

I'm glad to see people saying what they both enjoyed and think needs fixing. I think ll needs both of those things. 

Caer, I'm not "shutting down" the right of SL residents to criticize -- I'm advocating for a better way to express criticism.
In my book, criticism is indeed necessary, but it should be given along with the positive.  Vomiting a list of what's wrong after visiting a creation for the first time is not the way to go about it.
This is always how I treat people I must 'criticize' or ask more from -- I include the things they are doing 'right' as well. I like being sensitive to people's feelings, and yeah I know they'll cope just fine without me being careful that I don't hurt their feelings, but why not criticize in a kinder way if I can.

You may think this strange, as you refer to LL as an entity or something -- but see I'm not thinking of LL the company (the owners at the top) when I'm examining a build that has been created here. Instead I'm thinking of Moles & Lindens who feel like friends and family.
I was actually a kind of Mole before there were Moles..lol...or maybe you'd call me a contractor...but SL paid me to build most of the area for the 3rd birthday celebration here, and I've also been a major creator here, so see I have a strong identification with Moles and creators.
So how I feel is, don't be mean to my friends and family -- don't levy criticism in the wrong way!

And also, I advocate for THINKING and LEARNING about the situation before criticizing -- it takes work to empathize, and most likely one does not know as much as they imagine about a situation before they decide to tell another what they SHOULD have done.

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The number of avatars has nothing to do with your initial landing lag.

Actually the number of avatars does impact the lag experienced in your initial landing. As does those that tp out and in, cross regions, use scripted objects, collide into physical objects etc. Even the effect of multiple avatars stacking on top of each other at a landing point and hitting into each other causes lag by affecting the server physics allowances.

Those little discs you see that move people away at the landing point are not just for personal space issues.

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Once the region in your draw distance is loaded in cache, there should be no lag.

You also seem to not understand (over and over) that lag doesn't just mean server to user lag due to downloading assets to your cache. Those assets of the whole region dont just load all at once from your cache in your view in a load and forget fashion. Lag can also be felt when the fps gets to low.

Even little things that you probably dont know about such as the frustum occlusion culling or the subscribe and unsubscribe object killing that second life uses. This requires the viewer to send data from the viewer to the server so as the server can tell the viewer what assets to load and unload.

This 'lag' FPS drop can be noticed quite easily by standing in one spot and spinning around as your computer hardware processes what the server is telling the viewer to load and unload from the viewer cache and view. The greater the complexity of the object or higher the texture and the higher your graphics settings (and limit of your computer hardware), the greater the fps drop and more lag felt. That data sent can also be seen in the UDP Data Received in the statistics bar and the network section (packets in and out and objects KB/s) as the packets are sent from the server to the viewer as you spin around.

That is just one other form of fps drop that can happen not to mention the lag produced server side. There are many, many other ways SL gives the user the feeling of lag and an fps drop that dont exist in other games.

So no, whilst there is initial landing lag, there are lots of other reasons why @Sam1 Bellisserian experienced the lag described.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[belindacarson]

5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

a quick almost point form response. In future however, I will keep such feedback to myself as it seems to be unwanted and taken way out of proportion in these forums. Everybody will probably now cheer.

You ain't just whistling Dixie  that's for sure

[Jaylinbridges]

6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Even little things that you probably dont know about such as the frustum occlusion culling or the subscribe and unsubscribe object killing that second life uses. This requires the viewer to send data from the viewer to the server so as the server can tell the viewer what assets to load and unload.

I responded based on what she described, and tried to not baffle her with BS.  

Her frame rate did not decrease.  She only saw 4 avatars. It was her first visit.  She said nothing about others landing or leaving.  And while you keep trying to insult me, I suspect I know a lot more than you do about causes of lag.  That does not mean I should give a laundry list of 50 causes for lag to someone.  

I know nothing about her system or specs, or setup, and neither do you.  What I do know is I have no apparent lag from any causes when I TP into the Welcome Center hub regions, and this is on an ancient system that you would laugh at.  Of course the first time I visited, and if my cache rolls off old files then I get the landing lag.  And of course there will be fps changes as you swing the cam around to load new objects within the draw distance.  That is not what she said she did.

Here are some region stats for the SL Welcome Hub.  Nothing in the stats show a poor laggy build.  My FPS is 80 fps here with  no lag I can notice using Firestorm.  8 avatars within my draw distance now.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I went to the build the day after to look at it because it sounded exciting and was curious.  I found it lackluster and really just an average SL build.  I expected to see a WOW factor but it looked very outdated.

 

I lived in the city of Detroit for many years. The Motown build has a pretty authentic feel for me, and part of the reason IS the fact that it's a mixture of pieces of various ages (yes, in SL terms on a meta level), not all of them in the best condition. That's basically the world Motown came out of.

[Drayke Newall]

56 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

And of course there will be fps changes as you swing the cam around to pick up new objects in the draw distance. 

What do you mean by 'new objects'? If it is downloading those 'new' objects from the server to the cache, then you have completely missed the point of what I was saying.

It's pointless arguing anyway. I, like her had the same lag when moving around even though everything was downloaded to the cache. I too decided to stop and cam around due to that reason. It is also why I picked up on the 'issues' I mentioned previously as I was trying to work out where the lag was coming from.

Just because you didn't get lag doesn't mean others didn't.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Love Zhaoying]

If you buy a new Lifetime Membership, within 1-2 years you will be the first to get the new "Lag-Free Experience"!

[Quartz Mole]

I think some of the debates in this thread are nearing the point at which it would be better for the disputants to conduct them in personal messages or IMs.

 

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

My FPS is 80 fps here with  no lag I can notice using Firestorm.  8 avatars within my draw distance now.

Pretty much my fps and avatar count. I had no lag whatsoever, and was even riding a Teegle horse I got from the store there.

[Quartz Mole]

Some disputes here are now past the point at which, if they are to be continued, they should be continued in private messages or IMs.

Continuing them here will result. at the very least, in the posts being removed .

Edited June 23, 2023 by Quartz Mole

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Quartz Mole said:

I think some of the debates in this thread are nearing the point at which it would be better for the disputants to conduct them in personal messages or IMs.

 

6 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Some disputes here are now past the point at which, if they are to be continued, they should be continued in private messages or IMs.

Continuing them here will result. at the very least, in the posts being removed .

Thank you! Sometimes you have to tell us twice!

[redacted by Quartz Mole because I had reworded the second post by the time this one was posted]

Edited June 23, 2023 by Quartz Mole

[Eirynne Sieyes]

I like to hear the technical side of things. Eventually, a little teeny tiny bit of it rubs off as though by osmosis. 🙂

[Dana Enyo]

I was really excited when I read about this.  I'm from Detroit, I saw the Motown building every day during high school.

Imagine my total disappointment when I arrived!  Multiple reasons (and I keep finding more as I go back hoping for better:

--None of the media works "due to licensing" outside of selected countries. I'm in Mexico, so it is dead silence and the big YouTube screen is black. (It's not my settings.) I realize the vast majority of avs are in the USA and Europe, but SL has never played favorites. On the SL Website page that mentions the Motown Club it even says "meet friends from around the world." Well, except Latin America and probably Asia and Africa.

--There's a L$1250 gadget sold in the "Motown Store" that is only available if you're I'm the US or Canada; I can't even try it out so have no idea what it does.

--There is NOTHING Detroit about the sim.  It would not have been so hard to find a few current or historic iconic buildings or structures. (A return visit found signage repeated on different blocks!  This is a no-frills budget build; my city deserves better.

--The company that LL is working with is all about monetizing music in online games.  Does this mean SL DJs are going to be blocked from using Motown music?  Are images or tributes of Motown artists going to be banned?  Diana Ross graduated from my high school; I guess I feel like she's more than a monetizable asset.

I'm sorry for the rant, but I REALLY feel let down.  After 14+ years in SL I feel maybe I have some street cred, so maybe this post will let someone in power realize some shortcomings that only a Detroit native living outside the country would know.